VQ Oil Analysis and Info

[HiTechOilCo]

Originally Posted by redlude97

which is why I said he wasn't totally incorrect, he has a point, kind of, but just because something doesn't follow the scientific method to a tee, doesn't mean some type of correlation can't be made. Just by using different oil filters, I bet I could alter the results to a certain extent on the same engine.

Hello Redlude. I am certified in interpreting oil analysis results. I've been doing it for 20 years. To extrapolate on my point, not only is the way using used oil analysis here to determine, "the best oil", not, "following the scientific method to a tee", it is indeed
totally invalid. There are absolutely no controls for time, temperature, load, weather conditions, different engines with different drivers, different fuels, different pour in oil additives, different oil and air filters, different short trip vs highway driving, how the oil sample is actually collected, (which the vast majority of people don't even know how to do correctly! ), etc., etc., etc. ad nauseum, that all will have distinct and varying effects on the results of oil anaysis test results. With the wear metals alone reported in oil analysis results, this is measured in parts per million, which of course is an extremely tiny measurement, so obviously, differing oil filters, differing air filters, differing drivers, differing weather conditions, etc., will have a distinct and varying affect on oil analysis test results. The people who are misusing oil analysis test results to shout, "XXX is the best oil", might be deluding themselves and might be extremely anal, especially when they are not certified or even practiced with interpreting said oil analysis test results. Used oil analysis test results are for gauging the condition of that oil sample only, in the engine it came from, only. Period.

Steve - Distributing industry leading AMSOIL synthetic lubricants for 20 years

[Jeff92se]

Oh, what is your training background?

[redlude97]

Originally Posted by HiTechOilCo

Hello Redlude. I am certified in interpreting oil analysis results. I've been doing it for 20 years. To extrapolate on my point, not only is the way using used oil analysis here to determine, "the best oil", not, "following the scientific method to a tee", it is indeed
totally invalid. There are absolutely no controls for time, temperature, load, weather conditions, different engines with different drivers, different fuels, different pour in oil additives, different oil and air filters, different short trip vs highway driving, how the oil sample is actually collected, (which the vast majority of people don't even know how to do correctly! ), etc., etc., etc. ad nauseum, that all will have distinct and varying effects on the results of oil anaysis test results. With the wear metals alone reported in oil analysis results, this is measured in parts per million, which of course is an extremely tiny measurement, so obviously, differing oil filters, differing air filters, differing drivers, differing weather conditions, etc., will have a distinct and varying affect on oil analysis test results. The people who are misusing oil analysis test results to shout, "XXX is the best oil", might be deluding themselves and might be extremely anal, especially when they are not certified or even practiced with interpreting said oil analysis test results. Used oil analysis test results are for gauging the condition of that oil sample only, in the engine it came from, only. Period.

Show me where any of the more educated members have said XXX oil is the greatest? I know I am extra careful to tell people to try a certain oil based on other people's results, but I never make the claim that XXX oil is the "best" There is no "best" oil, there are alot of "good" oils that "may" work well in a particular engine based on other people's UOA's. Guess what? These suggestions hold true ALOT of the time.

[HiTechOilCo]

[quote=redlude97]Show me where any of the more educated members have said XXX oil is the greatest? I know I am extra careful to tell people to try a certain oil based on other people's results, but I never make the claim that XXX oil is the "best" There is no "best" oil, there are alot of "good" oils that "may" work well in a particular engine based on other people's UOA's. Guess what? These suggestions hold true ALOT of the time.[/QUOTE]


I can't show you that, because it hasn't happened in this forum...yet, but it sure the heck does at BITOG, (which the poster referenced), frequently. Indeed there is a best oil and it isn't determined by analyzing contaminated, used oil, with absolutely no controls being applied during that oil's used life, but by the standard oil industry test results found on the product data sheet of an oil and then comparing that controlled test data.

Steve - Distributing industry leading AMSOIL Synthetic Lubricants for 20 years

[Jeff92se]

Then exactly how do you determine how the oil is performing over it's operating life. What it has before it's used isn't necessarily a determination of how well it performs.

Where's your data how how an oil like Amsoil performed over it's operating life? In an actual engine?

And learn how to quote

Originally Posted by HiTechOilCo

I can't show you that, because it hasn't happened in this forum...yet, but it sure the heck does at BITOG, (which the poster referenced), frequently. Indeed there is a best oil and it isn't determined by analyzing contaminated, used oil, with absolutely no controls being applied during that oil's used life, but by the standard oil industry test results found on the product data sheet of an oil and then comparing that controlled test data.

Steve
Hi-Tech Oil Co.
Distributing industry leading AMSOIL Synthetic Lubricants for 20 years.

[redlude97]

Originally Posted by HiTechOilCo

I can't show you that, because it hasn't happened in this forum...yet, but it sure the heck does at BITOG, (which the poster referenced), frequently. Indeed there is a best oil and it isn't determined by analyzing contaminated, used oil, with absolutely no controls being applied during that oil's used life, but by the standard oil industry test results found on the product data sheet of an oil and then comparing that controlled test data.

Ahh... but there is the rub, what is "best" on paper isn't necessarily what is best in a particular engine. If you truely understood scientific theory, you would know that you couldn't extrapolate the conclusions of a test to a broader group. If an oil performs the "best" in a particular group of tests, then you can conclude it was the best oil for those tests. If you then use that data to conclude that oil is "the best oil," then you've commited the same erroneous reasoning as the BITOG guys. If you have actually read alot of what is posted on BITOG, then you would find that alot of the more respected members will not claim there is a best oil, and that "your mileage will vary" with each particular oil, only noobs (and AMSOIL salesman) are that brainwashed to think/claim that their product they use is the best oil EVAR

[Jeff92se]

PWNT

Originally Posted by redlude97

Ahh... but there is the rub, what is "best" on paper isn't necessarily what is best in a particular engine. If you truely understood scientific theory, you would know that you couldn't extrapolate the conclusions of a test to a broader group. If an oil performs the "best" in a particular group of tests, then you can conclude it was the best oil for those tests. If you then use that data to conclude that oil is "the best oil," then you've commited the same erroneous reasoning as the BITOG guys. If you have actually read alot of what is posted on BITOG, then you would find that alot of the more respected members will not claim there is a best oil, and that "your mileage will vary" with each particular oil, only noobs (and AMSOIL salesman) are that brainwashed to think claim that their product they use is the best oil EVAR

[HiTechOilCo]

Originally Posted by redlude97

Ahh... but there is the rub, what is "best" on paper isn't necessarily what is best in a particular engine. If you truely understood scientific theory, you would know that you couldn't extrapolate the conclusions of a test to a broader group. If an oil performs the "best" in a particular group of tests, then you can conclude it was the best oil for those tests. If you then use that data to conclude that oil is "the best oil," then you've commited the same erroneous reasoning as the BITOG guys. If you have actually read alot of what is posted on BITOG, then you would find that alot of the more respected members will not claim there is a best oil, and that "your mileage will vary" with each particular oil, only noobs (and AMSOIL salesman) are that brainwashed to think claim that their product they use is the best oil EVAR

I don't understand why the insulting tone is coming into the picture here. I would much prefer this conversation remain respectful and civil. If it doesn't, I will not participate further. I think this request is more than reasonable and fair. Thank you.

Now, again, used oil analysis test results are only for that oil sample for that engine, only. There are no controlled testing parameters, or even controlled oil sampling procedures in order to make broader conclusions. Doesn't matter how much someone wants to believe something, if the facts don't support the belief, then it shouldn't be believed.

The tests results reported on an oils product data sheet are accepted standard industry oil tests from the S.A.E. and A.S.T.M. that are used to determine the quality and performance of a given oil. Neither the S.A.E. or the A.S.T.M. endorse used oil analysis test results to reach a broad conclusion as to what oil is, "best", or not, for the very reasons of uncontrolabilty voiding repeatability of conducted tests, (as I have stated). This is also why no oil company in the entire world quotes used oil analysis test results either. S.A.E. and A.S.T.M. testing procedures are many times developed to simulate the conditions found inside an engine, so as to give the evaluater of a given oils product data sheet an idea how the oil will actually perform vs other brand oils. Other S.A.E. and A.S.T.M. testing parameters are actually more rigorous than what would be experienced inside an engine of a typical motorists vehicle. This is precisely why these tests are completed, so as to determine a given oils quality and performance. We don't need to re-invent the wheel here. Oil test results are already available, which unless I am mistaken, the original poster of this thread did not mention.

Steve - Distributing industry leading AMSOIL synthetic motor oils for 20 years.

[redlude97]

Originally Posted by HiTechOilCo

I don't understand why the insulting tone is coming into the picture here. I would much prefer this conversation remain respectful and civil. If it doesn't, I will not participate further. I think this request is more than reasonable and fair. Thank you.

Feel free to step on out whenever you'd like

Originally Posted by HiTechOilCo

Now, again, used oil analysis test results are only for that oil sample for that engine, only. There are no controlled testing parameters, or even controlled oil sampling procedures in order to make broader conclusions. Doesn't matter how much someone wants to believe something, if the facts don't support the belief, then it shouldn't be believed.

Blah blah blah, yea we got it, flawed scientific method, blah blah blah. No one here is making any conclusions for other people's engine based on the UOA's though. We are simply making recommendations for people with similar engines based on other's past experiences. Its similar to how we recommend mods for other people based on our previoiius experiences, funny how that works isn't it? Or maybe we should only go off of manufacturer's dyno sheets

Originally Posted by HiTechOilCo

The tests results reported on an oils product data sheet are accepted standard industry oil tests from the S.A.E. and A.S.T.M. that are used to determine the quality and performance of a given oil. Neither the S.A.E. or the A.S.T.M. endorse used oil analysis test results to reach a broad conclusion as to what oil is, "best", or not, for the very reasons of uncontrolabilty voiding repeatability of conducted tests, (as I have stated). This is also why no oil company in the entire world quotes used oil analysis test results either. S.A.E. and A.S.T.M. testing procedures are many times developed to simulate the conditions found inside an engine, so as to give the evaluater of a given oils product data sheet an idea how the oil will actually perform vs other brand oils. Other S.A.E. and A.S.T.M. testing parameters are actually more rigorous than what would be experienced inside an engine of a typical motorists vehicle. This is precisely why these tests are completed, so as to determine a given oils quality and performance. We don't need to re-invent the wheel here. Oil test results are already available, which unless I am mistaken, the original poster of this thread did not mention.

You aren't presenting groundbreaking info bud, we all know the UOA tests aren't meant to provide a "best oil". None of us are claiming that. The point is that SAE and ASTM tests aren't perfect either, because they are EXTRAPOLATING testing info. That is as much an error in reasoning as claiming a "best oil" based on UOA's. The problem is we aren't making any "best oil" claims, while the oil manufacturers and salesman are.

[Resolute]

Howdy.

I made the sticky over on my350z.com that was copied and pasted here. I wish this wasn't done, because I have no interest in updating two sites with new information, but if the OP wants to keep this site updated with the new results- then it's cool by me. And if so, then you're already behind on the updates, LOL.

I want to clarify some things that I thought were made very simple, but maybe not. This thread was made to help owners make an informed decision, not to say one oil is the "best". I don't think I have ever said one oil to be the best oil, but made a recommended list of oils that have multiple UOA's performed on them with consistent results.

As far as using the UAO data, this is in no way the end all be all of tests. Far from it. I made this point in the sticky to compile the results that people achieve and see trends. This is valid. There will always be variances, but the trends are valid. If enough UOA's are performed on the same oil in multiple engines, then it is fair to say that the results are accurate for that engine in a multitude of driving environments. This has been confirmed by years of fleet vehicle testing and also by the president of Blackstone Labs, who recently did an interview about this very topic.

There is no point in looking at one engine UOA with good results and saying that oil is the best. It might look good and be worth trying, but results will vary. What remains is the trend for some oils to perform better than others. The fact is, if someone wanted to have a UOA done with Royal Purple 5W-30, the results won't be identicle to the UOA average in the sticky. They'd probably be close for the same mileage, but what the owner should see from the sticky is that if they switch to Castrol 0W-30 or Amsoil TSO (just examples, not an endorsement), the results will probably be better. Then they can have a UOA done on the new oil and see. There is a REALLY strong correlation between the data and the real world results that would say the owner would have better results with the new oil. The numbers on the UOA might not match the average for that oil, but the improvement would match the average results.

Anyways, glad this has some more controversy. I want to make sure my efforts are clear that this is not to determine the "best" oil, but only see if there are trends that exist between certain oils and how they perform in the VQ engine. Some oils clearly show better results, and I recommend those. That's my opinion of what to use, but the results are in a comparison chart so people can make up their own mind, and I encourage them to do so.

Happy Motoring G guys,

Will

[FI'ed G]

Ok, here is my result after using Mobile1 0W40 for 2500miles. I have a Single Turbo running 8psi around 360whp on my Stock Motor. This 2500 miles are all hard driven and lots of WOT Pull since I was adjusting my A/F for the Winter Driving. I only drive my car on the Weekend so I go WOT every chance I get My oil was almost black when I changed them so I was surprise that it did hold pretty good. My car is pretty much stock except the Turbo and Mrev+. I think I can still push a few more hundred miles but I'm happy to change my oil at 2.5K miles

[Maciuniu]

Dude thank you Greate Write up!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[bythabay]

Here are the UOAs I have so far from my 05 Sedan







I'll be doing another one in a few months...

[Nismo G]

I really have no idea how to read those charts...i do literally, but i don't know what the numbers mean? Could someone explain to me what the numbers mean???

-Sean

[bythabay]

Originally Posted by Nismo G

I really have no idea how to read those charts...i do literally, but i don't know what the numbers mean? Could someone explain to me what the numbers mean???

-Sean

see the attached image for an explanation