Regarding to the 335i

[jackygor]

I remember reading somewhere how BMW developed the new twin turbo for the new 3 series because it was getting to expensive to make more HP from the traditional N/A engines...well, i could be wrong, but anyways, compared to infiniti's new G35 sedan (according to the numbers on paper) it is only a .X seconds away. Now here is the question, is it because BMW cannot stay competitive ( or price competitive) with infiniti if they didnt go with the twin turbo in the 335i? and how can infinti offer such a better bang for buck compared to other competition?

Oh ya, i think infiniti is doing pretty well keeping European car companies from becoming to arrogant!

[Picus]

BMW has never tried to be cheap with regard to research; I don't think it's any shocker that they've pioneered a huge amount of new technology we see in cars today, and that includes a large number of engine advancements in the past 20 years. They have always been known as a company that is on the bleeding edge of technology (for better or worse). They've won, what? 14 international engine of the year awards? I was starting to think of a list of things they've developed that have become stadard (like rain sensing wipers, auto fold mirrors, pdc, voice nav, etc... but seriously the list is crazy long), currently there are articles online discussing a hydrogen powered 7 series being tested in Germany.

The reason they went FI is because they have traditionally used inline 6's in the 3 series to maintain the balance they like. Obviously competition has forced them to produce engines with more power, so instead of moving to a V configuration or adding more displacement, they went with turbos. The current TT 3.0 i6 is only 28lbs heavier than the engine currently in the 330i, and it produces 45 more hp and 80 more lb/ft of torque. Not only that but its an all alum crankcase double vanos direct injected engine, it's pretty much state of the art - that is illustrated by the fact that even with the power it achieves it gets respectable gas mileage AND the fact that they have virtually eliminated "turbo lag".

In fact I don't think it's an un-safe assumption that developing the TT inline 6 in the 335i cost significantly more money than it would have cost them to drop in the S54 engine from the M3 or even the N62 V8. Remember, the S54 and it's older brothers (m54, s52, s50) have been producing over 300hp for something like 10 years now. In fact BMW had a 277hp NA inline 6 engine in 1977. It isn't like BMW can't make a high output low displacement NA 6. On further reflection one wonders why they didn't just de-tune the M3 engine and put it in the 335i? It would have been a screamer of a car that would have competed with the IS350/G35 easily. So why didn't they? Because for this application the N54 is the better engine. It's smoother, less track oriented, more of a cruiser engine that competes very favorably. What do you know, they developed a whole new engine when they didn't have to because it was the better engine for the job.

The real question is, why can't Nissan and Toyota make an engine that produces that kind of power without using without resorting to more displacement? Look at the VQ, it's a non-direct injected engine and to reach 300hp they had to sacrifice low end torque. You don't reach peak torque until into the 5000 rpm range whereas the N54 reaches it's 300lbs/ft (30 more than the VQ) at a whopping 1300rpm. The current estimates on the next gen VQs gas mileage as pretty sad... As much as I love that engine (it's an all time favorite of mine), it is long in the tooth and I can't imagine Nissan will be able to string it along much longer.

As for price, BMW doesn't need to be price competative. Infiniti is the one that needs to push value. Until 6 years ago Infiniti was a dying brand; they've had one line of successes and their brand name doesn't exactly garnish a ton of prestige. They are essentially an unknown in the near-lux segment, and it's going to be a long time before they can afford to price in line with MB, BMW and Lexus and still make sales. They manage to remain price competative both because they do a lot of part sharing and are smartly run, and because they have to.

(as an aside, ask this question in a year when the new M3 is released with a V8; the question will be more pertinent then. )

[Klubbheads]

Any high reving N/A engine is going to have its peak tq on reletavely higher Rpm compare to the same displacement engine with low reving capabilties. E46 M3 revs high and its peak tq is at 4900 rpm, s2k revs high and its peak tq is at 6800rpm. No high reving N/A engine is going to have its peak tq at low rpm.

[jackygor]

Originally Posted by picus112

BMW has never tried to be cheap with regard to research; I don't think it's any shocker that they've pioneered a huge amount of new technology we see in cars today, and that includes a large number of engine advancements in the past 20 years. They have always been known as a company that is on the bleeding edge of technology (for better or worse). They've won, what? 14 international engine of the year awards? I was starting to think of a list of things they've developed that have become stadard (like rain sensing wipers, auto fold mirrors, pdc, voice nav, etc... but seriously the list is crazy long), currently there are articles online discussing a hydrogen powered 7 series being tested in Germany.

The reason they went FI is because they have traditionally used inline 6's in the 3 series to maintain the balance they like. Obviously competition has forced them to produce engines with more power, so instead of moving to a V configuration or adding more displacement, they went with turbos. The current TT 3.0 i6 is only 28lbs heavier than the engine currently in the 330i, and it produces 45 more hp and 80 more lb/ft of torque. Not only that but its an all alum crankcase double vanos direct injected engine, it's pretty much state of the art - that is illustrated by the fact that even with the power it achieves it gets respectable gas mileage AND the fact that they have virtually eliminated "turbo lag".

In fact I don't think it's an un-safe assumption that developing the TT inline 6 in the 335i cost significantly more money than it would have cost them to drop in the S54 engine from the M3 or even the N62 V8. Remember, the S54 and it's older brothers (m54, s52, s50) have been producing over 300hp for something like 10 years now. In fact BMW had a 277hp NA inline 6 engine in 1977. It isn't like BMW can't make a high output low displacement NA 6. On further reflection one wonders why they didn't just de-tune the M3 engine and put it in the 335i? It would have been a screamer of a car that would have competed with the IS350/G35 easily. So why didn't they? Because for this application the N54 is the better engine. It's smoother, less track oriented, more of a cruiser engine that competes very favorably. What do you know, they developed a whole new engine when they didn't have to because it was the better engine for the job.

The real question is, why can't Nissan and Toyota make an engine that produces that kind of power without using without resorting to more displacement? Look at the VQ, it's a non-direct injected engine and to reach 300hp they had to sacrifice low end torque. You don't reach peak torque until into the 5000 rpm range whereas the N54 reaches it's 300lbs/ft (30 more than the VQ) at a whopping 1300rpm. The current estimates on the next gen VQs gas mileage as pretty sad... As much as I love that engine (it's an all time favorite of mine), it is long in the tooth and I can't imagine Nissan will be able to string it along much longer.

As for price, BMW doesn't need to be price competative. Infiniti is the one that needs to push value. Until 6 years ago Infiniti was a dying brand; they've had one line of successes and their brand name doesn't exactly garnish a ton of prestige. They are essentially an unknown in the near-lux segment, and it's going to be a long time before they can afford to price in line with MB, BMW and Lexus and still make sales. They manage to remain price competative both because they do a lot of part sharing and are smartly run, and because they have to.

(as an aside, ask this question in a year when the new M3 is released with a V8; the question will be more pertinent then. )

thanks for your the enlightenment!

[Sukairain]

I think BMW finally got sick and tired from all the competitors' horse power non-sense. (Mercedes AMG Supercharger, Audi Turbo, infiniti V6, and finally the Lexus 3.5L just pushed them over the edge) Bimmer engineers finally put down their foot and said "You want to play horse power games? Wipe your necks clean and prepare to die."

[Picus]

Originally Posted by Klubbheads

Any high reving N/A engine is going to have its peak tq on reletavely higher Rpm compare to the same displacement engine with low reving capabilties. E46 M3 revs high and its peak tq is at 4900 rpm, s2k revs high and its peak tq is at 6800rpm. No high reving N/A engine is going to have its peak tq at low rpm.

That's true - but then the question becomes; "what kind of engine makes more sense in a luxury-sport sedan/coupe?". The answer depends on who you're trying to sell to. In terms of the M3 and S2k, those are close to being purpose built cars (not quite), they are both ++ on the sport and a little -- on the luxury. Both rides are harsh, both are "meant" to be driven at high revs. Neither is what I would consider a cruiser.

On the other hand cars like the G35 and 335i *are* more cruiser than sport. Anyone that tells you a G35 is a sports car is just kidding themselves (unless they've put a lot of money into it to MAKE it a sports car), they are "sporty-luxury-cruiser" cars that are meant to appeal to a broader audience that likes power, but won't sacrifice ride comfort and luxury for it. So back to the question - which engine makes more sense in that kind of car? A high revving engine with less torque down low and below average gas mileage, or an engine with a flat torque curve from 1300-5500 rpm (which is pretty much 99% of the time in daily driving) that gets reasonable mpg? I'm not ragging on the VQ, like I said above it's a great engine. I just think that it's at the end of its usable lifespan.

Cheers.

Originally Posted by Sukairain

I think BMW finally got sick and tired from all the competitors' horse power non-sense. (Mercedes AMG Supercharger, Audi Turbo, infiniti V6, and finally the Lexus 3.5L just pushed them over the edge) Bimmer engineers finally put down their foot and said "You want to play horse power games? Wipe your necks clean and prepare to die."

Hehe. I don't think you're far off at all. BMW has never used a V6, so knowing they had to get more power out of a 6 and wanting to keep it inline I think some German dude in Munich finally said "ACKH, ve make it wit ze turbos!".

[xswl0931]

Note that you can't quite compare old engines to new engines as those older engines wouldn't meet today's emission standards. However, the VQ has also gotten many international engine awards. As for packaging, the I6, V6, and H6 all have their pros and cons. It's not like Nissan never had a I6 before.

[Deang35c6]

If you guys think Nissan will sit back and allow BMW to win the hp game, you're mistaken. I predict once the GT-R is released, Nissan will produce a F/I 350z and G35. BMW can't come close to the experience Nissan or any Japanese company has in turbo 4's and 6's. I think BMW just opened up a can of worms. There's no turning back. The next 3-series will have to be FI or a V8. Meanwhile, Infiniti can have a NA G35 and offer a FI G35 that will produce way more power than the 335i. The V6 has more torque than the Inline 6 inherently. On a 10.3 compression, beefier internals and with slight detuning and producing 260 hp/260 ft/lb, a mere 6 psi will put the VQ at 300 rwhp easily. Infiniti would miss a great opportunity by not offering special G35 and 350z FI versions.

[filanj]

I don't know whether this is really tru or not but the guys on audiworld are making fun of it for having the smallest stock turbos ever put on a car. at the same time they are pissing their pants cuz all they hafta do is upgrade their turbos, put larger injectors, get a chip and get it tuned and them fckers will be rrriiiiiippinggg....

[RBull]

Originally Posted by picus112

BMW has never tried to be cheap with regard to research; I don't think it's any shocker that they've pioneered a huge amount of new technology we see in cars today, and that includes a large number of engine advancements in the past 20 years. They have always been known as a company that is on the bleeding edge of technology (for better or worse). They've won, what? 14 international engine of the year awards? I was starting to think of a list of things they've developed that have become stadard (like rain sensing wipers, auto fold mirrors, pdc, voice nav, etc... but seriously the list is crazy long), currently there are articles online discussing a hydrogen powered 7 series being tested in Germany.

The reason they went FI is because they have traditionally used inline 6's in the 3 series to maintain the balance they like. Obviously competition has forced them to produce engines with more power, so instead of moving to a V configuration or adding more displacement, they went with turbos. The current TT 3.0 i6 is only 28lbs heavier than the engine currently in the 330i, and it produces 45 more hp and 80 more lb/ft of torque. Not only that but its an all alum crankcase double vanos direct injected engine, it's pretty much state of the art - that is illustrated by the fact that even with the power it achieves it gets respectable gas mileage AND the fact that they have virtually eliminated "turbo lag".

In fact I don't think it's an un-safe assumption that developing the TT inline 6 in the 335i cost significantly more money than it would have cost them to drop in the S54 engine from the M3 or even the N62 V8. Remember, the S54 and it's older brothers (m54, s52, s50) have been producing over 300hp for something like 10 years now. In fact BMW had a 277hp NA inline 6 engine in 1977. It isn't like BMW can't make a high output low displacement NA 6. On further reflection one wonders why they didn't just de-tune the M3 engine and put it in the 335i? It would have been a screamer of a car that would have competed with the IS350/G35 easily. So why didn't they? Because for this application the N54 is the better engine. It's smoother, less track oriented, more of a cruiser engine that competes very favorably. What do you know, they developed a whole new engine when they didn't have to because it was the better engine for the job.

The real question is, why can't Nissan and Toyota make an engine that produces that kind of power without using without resorting to more displacement? Look at the VQ, it's a non-direct injected engine and to reach 300hp they had to sacrifice low end torque. You don't reach peak torque until into the 5000 rpm range whereas the N54 reaches it's 300lbs/ft (30 more than the VQ) at a whopping 1300rpm. The current estimates on the next gen VQs gas mileage as pretty sad... As much as I love that engine (it's an all time favorite of mine), it is long in the tooth and I can't imagine Nissan will be able to string it along much longer.

As for price, BMW doesn't need to be price competative. Infiniti is the one that needs to push value. Until 6 years ago Infiniti was a dying brand; they've had one line of successes and their brand name doesn't exactly garnish a ton of prestige. They are essentially an unknown in the near-lux segment, and it's going to be a long time before they can afford to price in line with MB, BMW and Lexus and still make sales. They manage to remain price competative both because they do a lot of part sharing and are smartly run, and because they have to.

(as an aside, ask this question in a year when the new M3 is released with a V8; the question will be more pertinent then. )

Well said Kevin. I pretty much agree with it all.

[MrCrazy]

Saw 2 335is today (on the street - BMW must be delivering the first orders this month) - and I gotta say, I think they look much better in person.

I can't say much about the performance since both were highly likely driven in break-in mode, but I'm pretty sure the price for these suckers were astronomical (from my point of view). For a decently equiped 335i... I'd expect 50k or more.

[filanj]

a kid at my school drove his 335i to school on move in day on the 7th of Sept

[Gaaaar]

Originally Posted by Deang35c6

If you guys think Nissan will sit back and allow BMW to win the hp game, you're mistaken. I predict once the GT-R is released, Nissan will produce a F/I 350z and G35. BMW can't come close to the experience Nissan or any Japanese company has in turbo 4's and 6's. I think BMW just opened up a can of worms. There's no turning back. The next 3-series will have to be FI or a V8. Meanwhile, Infiniti can have a NA G35 and offer a FI G35 that will produce way more power than the 335i. The V6 has more torque than the Inline 6 inherently. On a 10.3 compression, beefier internals and with slight detuning and producing 260 hp/260 ft/lb, a mere 6 psi will put the VQ at 300 rwhp easily. Infiniti would miss a great opportunity by not offering special G35 and 350z FI versions.

I dont think BMW released the turbo to start a hp war with nissan and infiniti. Anybody can put in really big turbos and have their cars push 400-500 hp but its not about that. The idea is to create a turbo that feels like a N/A car with very little turbo lag. Sure infiniti can put in bigger turbos but with bigger turbos come more turbo lag and infiniti cant do that if it wants to continue to be a luxury brand. Its about making a turbo thats so refined that it feels like a v8 with a very smooth and linear power throughout the rpm band. If infiniti wants to go F/I it will not only be competing against bmw in terms of power but also in terms of how refined the car is and how luxurious and and smooth the engine is. You put all those aspects into consideration and bmw actually looks like it did a pretty good job.

[Sukairain]

I think Nissan would have a hard time coming out with a stock turbo that can deliver 300lb.ft of torque at 1400rpm. That's plain nutty engineering, only the Germans are capable of stuff like that.

[Deang35c6]

I think the GTR will employ electric turbos, so Nissan has the technology for lag-free turbo-charging. 300ft/lb at 3500 rpm is cool, but the torque falls off very quickly afterwards. A shift a redline will put you no where near 300 ft/lbs. The car must be a dream to scoot around town in, but I would like to ring it out on the highway punching it at 4k to 7k. That's more realistic to how I drive, so I would appreciate a more flatter torque band.