Black Betty Ground Kit

[Black Betty]

Originally Posted by pfarmer

So you are stating it has no effects on the charging system.

What I am stating is exactly what I have stated twice before already: That not a single customer (not even one) has complained or even mentioned anything to me regarding any battery related issues that they've noticed as a result of installation of my wires. That's what I'm stating in case you aren't understanding me. I'm sure your extensive knowledge and EE degree have led you to believe that the battery/chassis ground is harming the charging system. That's not what I believe. Of course it has an effect on it. I believe it to be a positive one but apparently our viewpoints differ on that. So be it. I respect your dissenting opinion and the facts you believe back it up.



However, I have to take serious issue with this accusation:

Originally Posted by pfarmer

But then you appear to have known about this particular issue since at least the last three months. At least one documented customer has removed this particular cable from their installed kit.

Would you please let me in on what "issue" I've known about and what customer told me about removing any of the cables? I'm at a complete loss as to what you are talking about and generally don't care to be called a liar.

[pfarmer]

Originally Posted by Black Betty

What I am stating is exactly what I have stated twice before already: That not a single customer (not even one) has complained or even mentioned anything to me regarding any battery related issues that they've noticed as a result of installation of my wires. That's what I'm stating in case you aren't understanding me. I'm sure your extensive knowledge and EE degree have led you to believe that the battery/chassis ground is harming the charging system. That's not what I believe. Of course it has an effect on it. I believe it to be a positive one but apparently our viewpoints differ on that. So be it. I respect your dissenting opinion and the facts you believe back it up.

However, I have to take serious issue with this accusation:
Would you please let me in on what "issue" I've known about and what customer told me about removing any of the cables? I'm at a complete loss as to what you are talking about and generally don't care to be called a liar.

Assuming there is only one Black Betty making grounding kits then there is a post on another forum which was posted on 6-27-2009 at 10:25 PM by Black Betty referencing a post by SkyMG37x which shows the diagram of the system from the FSM with your statement about not seeing any problems.

Within the same thread a user RedG37SNC who states he is an electronic tech stated in a post that he is concerned about what effect it may have on gas mileage (which is one reason the system exist) and will therefore remove the new negative battery cable.

So are there two Black Bettys or are you calling me a liar which I never called you in the first place? I simply stated you appear to have known about this issue before now. If you are not the same Black Betty then you may want to hunt down the imposter.

The fact is this modification 'may' well void Infiniti's warranty on the alternator/battery system based on this caution contained in the FSM:

' CAUTION:
For this model, the battery current sensor that is installed to the battery cable at the negative terminal measures the charging/discharging current of the battery, and performs various controls.

If the electrical component or the ground wire is connected directly to the battery terminal, the current other than that being measured with the battery current sensor is charging to or discharging from the battery.

This condition causes the malfunction of the control, and then the battery discharge may occur. Do not connect the electrical component or the ground wire directly to the battery terminal.'

Note this was reference on the other forum as well.

I state 'may' since I see the possibility that we are speaking of connection of an accessory directly to the battery terminal (which of course we have seen done). For example on a stock system connecting an aftermarket amp to the negative terminal would cause a higher output voltage from the alternator since its draw would be seen by the current sensor as a discharge of the battery. Likewise a device that has a counter emf feed to the battery would be seen in the same fashion. If the current sensor has either 0% or a 100% output the system defaults to the alternator ic which of course is now looking at the battery voltage (or what is directly attached to it). But then it may simply mean what it states about not connecting a negative lead to the negative battery terminal and the Nissan engineers know their system best.

As far as the facts go it appears that what occurs is this. if you have the battery sensor in the system and being seen it will have a voltage of between 12 and 13.6 volts at an alternator duty cycle of 40% within 2 seconds. Now using this as a reference if the duty cycle is increased to 80% the output will rise by 1/2 volt above the 40% duty cycle setting within 20 seconds. Note the duty cycle above is reference in a test which appears to simulate a battery current sensor output which triggers the associated duty cycle.

With it out of service it defaults to the alternator regulator and it appears the output is based solely on the battery voltage as a reference not its current draw.

[Black Betty]

Originally Posted by pfarmer

Assuming there is only one Black Betty making grounding kits then there is a post on another forum which was posted on 6-27-2009 at 10:25 PM by Black Betty referencing a post by SkyMG37x which shows the diagram of the system from the FSM with your statement about not seeing any problems.

Within the same thread a user RedG37SNC who states he is an electronic tech stated in a post that he is concerned about what effect it may have on gas mileage (which is one reason the system exist) and will therefore remove the new negative battery cable.

So are there two Black Bettys or are you calling me a liar which I never called you in the first place? I simply stated you appear to have known about this issue before now. If you are not the same Black Betty then you may want to hunt down the imposter.

Yes, I am that Black Betty. You are correct about the thread from myg37 from 6/09 with the question regarding the kit's battery/chassis ground wire. In truth, I'd forgotten about this thread and my reply because no resolution ever came from it. However, there's no "issue" with the wires as the member with the question doesn't even own them or have them installed on his car, the same as you. His question is hypothetical as he has no experience with the actual product, just electrical knowledge and the information from Infiniti that's in the FSM.

Another member who is an actual customer of mine and has the kit installed mentioned an alternate location for the ground. He is an electrical technologist. Here's his quote from that thread:

There have been a few issues with the g35 with this causing an issue. I have an alternate grounding point that will eliviate this issue, even though that I have not heard of any problems on the 37 yet. I will post a pic of my install when i get my kit. damn shipping is slow to canada almost 20 days now.

Another member who is also a customer and has an AAS in Electronics Tech stated this in that thread:

You know what's really wierd here from some of the reading I've done is this circuit works to regulate the recharge system for the battery and while shorting it probably won't effect that to any great extent where it will have an effect is on fuel economy strangely enough. Apparently when the battery's in a good state it can lower the requirement on the generator which then results in better fuel economy. How much of an impact I have no idea but I'm going to remove the GK wire from the battery to the chassis cluster and keep the rest and see how things go.

So I have one customer who has decided to terminate the battery ground elsewhere and one who has removed it altogether. Neither of these are the result of any negative issues experienced from installation of the product, simply their own decision to do so based on their electrical knowledge and caution from what they've learned or read in the FSM.



Here's one of my replies to any who have reservations or doubts about it's ability to provide the benefits stated or a fear that it may somehow harm their vehicle in any way.

The current sensor is there on the OEM battery/chassis ground wire (at least on my car). I haven't haven't had any problems personally in over a year with my grounding kit installed, nor have I had any problems reported to me by any customer in that time. My kits (nor any others that I'm aware of) are connected to the output of the current sensor. I wonder how cars worked before these sensors existed?

If you see it as a problem, I'd avoid grounding kits, at least the ones that don't include a current sensor.

I don't want anyone to send me their money if they don't believe my product will improve their driving experience or that it will harm their vehicle. However, nobody who has installed the kit has ever said it affected their charging system negatively, including me who has had in on the car longer than anyone without issue.

[AesonVirus]

I've had my kit in for a while now and I'm still a happy camper

[nashvegas]

I installed my BB grounds 18 months ago @ 10,000 miles- now have 25,000 miles and original battery (bought car new in April '07). Everything with the car is copasetic thus far.

[pfarmer]

Originally Posted by Black Betty

Yes, I am that Black Betty. You are correct about the thread from myg37 from 6/09 with the question regarding the kit's battery/chassis ground wire. In truth, I'd forgotten about this thread and my reply because no resolution ever came from it. However, there's no "issue" with the wires as the member with the question doesn't even own them or have them installed on his car, the same as you. His question is hypothetical as he has no experience with the actual product, just electrical knowledge and the information from Infiniti that's in the FSM.

So you simply forgot, that is what I thought since it seems highly unlikely that someone who engineers a system to operate on a particular auto would not take in the design features of that auto in the design of their product.

So basically Infiniti has a caution of what may happen when making a connection to the negative lead of the battery affecting the charging system and further states that a discharged battery may well be the result not mentioning damage to the system. In fact possibly voiding the warranty on the system. I believe the battery may well be affected since it is not charging at the designed set points. Damage to the system however would the result of current flows in the original lead reflected in the current sensor. I still want to find out how this current sensor functions since what it appears to be probably is not what it is (based on Infiniti's statement). But the statement seems to indicate that anything attached could cause the sensor to swing the system above and below, that is causing an excessive charging and discharging. The advantage I see in charging by current draw is that the battery is effectively out of the circuit once the car is running and the current draw measured is that of the battery only (the reason the current sensor is on the isolated negative lead and not on the positive lead). Therefore it is charging based on battery condition not system voltage.

Now I believe the battery life may well be affected and 25 k on a battery doesn't mean much to me since I usually go about 4 times that easily. But setting that aside what is the negative about not having the new lead in this location? Well a typical battery is reported to have a capacitance of about 1 farad, it has a little resistance and minimum inductance.

The auto once up and running has its ground reference point at the alternator. From the ground reference point you have the chassis grounded. So what is the benefit of a second battery lead since we now know that it does affect the charging circuit operation? The stock lead is of capacity to run the starter. The stock lead far exceeds all loads of the car when the car is running and the loads are on the alternator. The stock lead far exceeds the needs of a 'stock' car when the car is off. The stock lead will carry any benefits the battery has electrically on the system in the way of resistance, capacitance, and inductance with the car running.

As far as the evidence of battery problems. Well what I have noticed and take it for what it may or may not indicate is that a large number of those with battery problems lists a grounding kit in their taglines. The fact that they have not reported any problems associated with one in this regard (Early battery failure) means that either they have not had a problem or that they have not associated the problem with something like a second lead on 07+ autos. This would normally not make any sense unless you are aware of how the system operates. With the exception of about a half dozen owners, I know of no one else that even knows of the existance of the current sensor even those highly trained individuals who engineered their grounding kits for a particular make and model of vehicle let alone how it may function.

[Glover997]

Black betty . . i'm gonna order this kit from you very soon. i'm sure it won't do any harm to my car . . .

lemme just find out how to install this thing, once i study and understand the installation process then i'll shoot u a PM . .

[soundmike]

Installation instructions are included in the kit. But if it also helps any, here's my write-up.

http://gshack.org/?p=124

[Black Betty]

Why are you people posting about grounding kits instead of watching Steelers-Broncos? Have some priorities people!

[soundmike]

Question is... why are you posting here instead of watching?

[Glover997]

Originally Posted by soundmike

Installation instructions are included in the kit. But if it also helps any, here's my write-up.

http://gshack.org/?p=124

thanx buddy . .
i got it all

but there is one thing i couldn't figured it out which is the TB passenger side wire . . my question is where should this wire ends ? where should it runs to ? i mean i do understand that i should connect one end to the allen bolt on the passenger side of throttle body. . . but where should the other end of this wire connect and ends to ? is it in the negative terminal of the battery just like the end of driver side TB wire, or what ? plz explain . .
if so, that means there will be three terminals attached along together in the negative terminal of the battery , right ?

[Glover997]

one more thing . . which one is better for the Throttle Body response and smooth shifting ? 4 AWG kit or 8 AWG kit ?

plz note one thing : 4 AWG kit comes with two 8 AWG TB wires = which is less strong , whereas the 8 AWG kit comes with two 4 AWG TB wires which is stronger .

so . . can i say that 8 AWG kit will be much better when it comes to TB and AT responsivity ?

[Black Betty]

Originally Posted by Glover997

one more thing . . which one is better for the Throttle Body response and smooth shifting ? 4 AWG kit or 8 AWG kit ?

plz note one thing : 4 AWG kit comes with two 8 AWG TB wires = which is less strong , whereas the 8 AWG kit comes with two 4 AWG TB wires which is stronger .

so . . can i say that 8 AWG kit will be much better when it comes to TB and AT responsivity ?

You've got it a bit mixed up. All the wires for the throttle bodies are the same size - 8 AWG - in both 4 gauge and 8 gauge sets. The other wires in the set are either 4 or 8 AWG. Either size is plenty sufficient to improve your AT shifting noticeably.

The TB wires are Y shaped for your car. One end terminates at the battery, the other two free ends are each attached to one of your throttle bodies in the same place, on either of the the inset hex bolts.

[Glover997]

Originally Posted by Black Betty

You've got it a bit mixed up. All the wires for the throttle bodies are the same size - 8 AWG - in both 4 gauge and 8 gauge sets. The other wires in the set are either 4 or 8 AWG. Either size is plenty sufficient to improve your AT shifting noticeably.

Got it !

The TB wires are Y shaped for your car. One end terminates at the battery, the other two free ends are each attached to one of your throttle bodies in the same place, on either of the the inset hex bolts.

but i don't see any Y shaped TB wires in the pictures u've posted earlier . . all i see is a seperated two TB wires , one long and one short , and so you did described them when i came a cross to the installation instructions !! take the short one . . take the long one . . u know. . so . .

RED is self explained . .

[Glover997]

^^^^^
ok you know what . . lemme go back and have a look again ! LOL

Edit : guess what . . . i took a close look and . . YES . . they are Y shaped wires . . now it sounds reasonable when it comes to the installation