Will dropping my G on Tien S make it handle better?
#16
08-18-2012, 12:58 PM
#18
08-20-2012, 09:57 AM
#19
08-20-2012, 01:34 PM
I'm going to have to disagree with everyone else.
In short: lowering springs will worsen the handling of your car.
In long-winded:
It depends on what you mean by handling. What most people are talking about is subjectively how it feels driving around the street. Where what matters most are weight shift and responsiveness/turn in. Lowering springs will probably make your ride stiffer (couldn't find the stock spring rates to compare), and will lower the roll angle. And i am guessing they make the car more oversteer happy than the stock, which may make the car feel snappier and sportier.
But almost all these things will make your car handle worse in the objective sense; They will make your car slower. The big difference I think is you never drive around the tire limits on the street. Even with "spirited" driving. It just isn't possible. (and if you think it is, go sign up for an hpde event at your local track and come back and tell me you drove the same on the track as on the street). You can get to maybe one or two tires limit for a second, by shoddy steering input, braking when you're not supposed to, or poor throttle control, but you can't stay there and drive the car there.
First, weight shift and roll control. Lowering springs/coilovers actually lower the roll center of the car, so paradoxically, even though you have a lower cg, your roll angle actually wants to get larger. The roll angle is controlled though with the stiffer springs. So in effect, you sacrifice a lot of comfort for minimal improvement in roll control. If these are progressive springs, all that extra elastic weight shift energy gets stored in the springs, at weird rates and you will get unsteady non-linear handling in transitions.
Also, assuming the spring rates are larger than stock, your suspension is now seriously under-damped. This basically reduces road holding on all tires under all circumstances.
Also, your shocks are going to be seriously unhappy with the lower ride height. They will start failing quicker than normal, aggravating the under-damped problem. Progressive springs help somewhat, but without beefy bump-stops and without proper damping, you run the very real risk of bottoming out your suspension, a lot. Which can also kill your shocks and do other bad things to your chassis.
On the issue of alignment, a 1" drop won't be too bad. You will get some negative camber, which actually is what the car needs for track driving. More important is the toe out you will get in the rear if the toe bolts can't bring it back into spec. The car is hard enough to control with throttle, toe-out doesn't help this at all. The toe-out in rear is a bad thing unless you are a pro-driver and like rotating the car at the apex with throttle control. These will all eat your tires though on the street.
On car balance, again, I can't find the stock spring rates for your car, but I highly suspect the lowering springs makes the car more oversteer-happy. I'm not too sure about this one though, it might be opposite. Having the car more oversteer-happy is fine on the streets and feels more fun, but you have to realize it is getting there not by increasing front traction, but by giving up rear traction. It is also slower.
I guess in summary, if you don't drive your car at the limit (ie track/autocross), then you may be happier with how the car feels. But it will have less maximal available traction.
If anyone actually read down this far, here is a great basically online textbook on vehicle dynamics:
http://farnorthracing.com/autocross_secrets.html
In short: lowering springs will worsen the handling of your car.
In long-winded:
It depends on what you mean by handling. What most people are talking about is subjectively how it feels driving around the street. Where what matters most are weight shift and responsiveness/turn in. Lowering springs will probably make your ride stiffer (couldn't find the stock spring rates to compare), and will lower the roll angle. And i am guessing they make the car more oversteer happy than the stock, which may make the car feel snappier and sportier.
But almost all these things will make your car handle worse in the objective sense; They will make your car slower. The big difference I think is you never drive around the tire limits on the street. Even with "spirited" driving. It just isn't possible. (and if you think it is, go sign up for an hpde event at your local track and come back and tell me you drove the same on the track as on the street). You can get to maybe one or two tires limit for a second, by shoddy steering input, braking when you're not supposed to, or poor throttle control, but you can't stay there and drive the car there.
First, weight shift and roll control. Lowering springs/coilovers actually lower the roll center of the car, so paradoxically, even though you have a lower cg, your roll angle actually wants to get larger. The roll angle is controlled though with the stiffer springs. So in effect, you sacrifice a lot of comfort for minimal improvement in roll control. If these are progressive springs, all that extra elastic weight shift energy gets stored in the springs, at weird rates and you will get unsteady non-linear handling in transitions.
Also, assuming the spring rates are larger than stock, your suspension is now seriously under-damped. This basically reduces road holding on all tires under all circumstances.
Also, your shocks are going to be seriously unhappy with the lower ride height. They will start failing quicker than normal, aggravating the under-damped problem. Progressive springs help somewhat, but without beefy bump-stops and without proper damping, you run the very real risk of bottoming out your suspension, a lot. Which can also kill your shocks and do other bad things to your chassis.
On the issue of alignment, a 1" drop won't be too bad. You will get some negative camber, which actually is what the car needs for track driving. More important is the toe out you will get in the rear if the toe bolts can't bring it back into spec. The car is hard enough to control with throttle, toe-out doesn't help this at all. The toe-out in rear is a bad thing unless you are a pro-driver and like rotating the car at the apex with throttle control. These will all eat your tires though on the street.
On car balance, again, I can't find the stock spring rates for your car, but I highly suspect the lowering springs makes the car more oversteer-happy. I'm not too sure about this one though, it might be opposite. Having the car more oversteer-happy is fine on the streets and feels more fun, but you have to realize it is getting there not by increasing front traction, but by giving up rear traction. It is also slower.
I guess in summary, if you don't drive your car at the limit (ie track/autocross), then you may be happier with how the car feels. But it will have less maximal available traction.
If anyone actually read down this far, here is a great basically online textbook on vehicle dynamics:
http://farnorthracing.com/autocross_secrets.html
Want better "handling"? Some some good tires.
I have no doubt in my mind that with just some seat time and good rubber, you can surprise people who simply slapped on a set of $1k set of coilovers.
#20
08-20-2012, 01:41 PM
I will also say that with all these fancy springs and coilovers, a simple set of d-spec's on OEM Z springs (revised spring rate) along with sways and rubber can give good results in the canyons. All of those can be had for just a tad more than the price of a set of top tier coils.
You want a nice drop, get coilovers.
You want a nice drop, get coilovers.
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