How come people say they do these mods to gain HP...
DaveB -
Your not that far off -
Bottom line is - if your going to start internals of any kind - you better have a plan and a reason.
Just doing cams is not a waste, if there are other reasons you just want top end power - and that is the reason for the cams. If your not doing FI at all, you wont have the bottom end to make up for the loss, unless you build the whole motor - trust me, I know and have done that. You can do gears to make up for the loss, and TQ converter for an AT as well.
Another thing to note - if your going to do an NA full build - you better have the money behind it as well...doing it right is not at all cheap - more than FI to do it right.
Rick
Your not that far off -
Bottom line is - if your going to start internals of any kind - you better have a plan and a reason.
Just doing cams is not a waste, if there are other reasons you just want top end power - and that is the reason for the cams. If your not doing FI at all, you wont have the bottom end to make up for the loss, unless you build the whole motor - trust me, I know and have done that. You can do gears to make up for the loss, and TQ converter for an AT as well.
Another thing to note - if your going to do an NA full build - you better have the money behind it as well...doing it right is not at all cheap - more than FI to do it right.
Rick
Besides the cash needed to do the full build that I want (heads, internals, cams, etc.), there is another reason that I haven't gone with the cams yet.
When I was looking about 6-12 months ago, the only real cam packages were the NISMO/JWT S-Tune variations. These don't seem to do much for the RevUp engine, per the manufacturers/dealers.
So... ...when I go with heads and internals, are the OEM RevUp cams going to be sufficient, will the S1-type cams then work, or will I find myself in need of a custom grind (if something new isn't available by then)?
When I was looking about 6-12 months ago, the only real cam packages were the NISMO/JWT S-Tune variations. These don't seem to do much for the RevUp engine, per the manufacturers/dealers.
So... ...when I go with heads and internals, are the OEM RevUp cams going to be sufficient, will the S1-type cams then work, or will I find myself in need of a custom grind (if something new isn't available by then)?
Originally Posted by imalazeeass
i think a lot of ppl just do simple bolt ons because they usually don't mod all at once.... so its usually a bolt on every now and then to keep us satisfied, and in the long run, it adds up to that list you have.. cuz a bolt on every now and then is rather cheap i would say.. so it doesnt take a lot to purchase those parts individually every now and then
also, some ppl claim they will only do an intake and spacer, or what not, but we all know, that usually leads to more
also, some ppl claim they will only do an intake and spacer, or what not, but we all know, that usually leads to more
Originally Posted by GT-Ron
So... ...when I go with heads and internals, are the OEM RevUp cams going to be sufficient, will the S1-type cams then work, or will I find myself in need of a custom grind (if something new isn't available by then)?
Rick
Originally Posted by ISMSOLUTIONS
I can't believe you spent $2k for 20HP and 11Tq!
There are cheaper ways to get that power, and better ways as well.
An Apexi AF controller and tune - $500 - no other mods is worth 15HP and 7!
Our Intimidator Catback and resonated testpipes - under $2K, are good fro 20HP and 18TQ.
MD's MREV 2 and ISO Thermal with a 1/2" spacer is worth about 30HP and 20TQ - and that's less than $500.
You guys really need to plan and research better or your wasting money.
Headers are great for sound - but for power??? Unless you heavily mod your engine or go SC - they are a waste power-wise. The UniChip is really not a great option - the TS reflash without a tune yields you 20HP and 10TQ for $650.
I think I'm the only one that preaches that you have to really plan out what your doing as a whole and not just jump into things. Tuning the car is one of the LAST thing you do after you mod and bolt up everything, not he first things...unless all your doing is AF and tuning.
You've got to put the money in wise places....
Rick
There are cheaper ways to get that power, and better ways as well.
An Apexi AF controller and tune - $500 - no other mods is worth 15HP and 7!
Our Intimidator Catback and resonated testpipes - under $2K, are good fro 20HP and 18TQ.
MD's MREV 2 and ISO Thermal with a 1/2" spacer is worth about 30HP and 20TQ - and that's less than $500.
You guys really need to plan and research better or your wasting money.
Headers are great for sound - but for power??? Unless you heavily mod your engine or go SC - they are a waste power-wise. The UniChip is really not a great option - the TS reflash without a tune yields you 20HP and 10TQ for $650.
I think I'm the only one that preaches that you have to really plan out what your doing as a whole and not just jump into things. Tuning the car is one of the LAST thing you do after you mod and bolt up everything, not he first things...unless all your doing is AF and tuning.
You've got to put the money in wise places....
Rick
With all that in mind, here are several other things to consider about my "$2k for 20hp":
1. I have an automatic transmission, so it has higher parasitic drag. Thus any gains will be lower than with a stick.
2. I have heavier 18" wheels vs. the stock 17" wheels that I started with, so my numbers will be lower than with the lighter/smaller stock wheels.
3. The DynoJet I go to has been running about 4-5% lower than most ever since they upgraded the WinPep software. This was shown between the 2004 and 2005 NorCal G35 Dyno Day comparisions against several vehicles which had done no other modifications. Same dyno. Similar weather conditions. All ran lower numbers.
4. The Unichip only cost me $400 shipped since it was used. I wouldn't have bought it if it was retail price.
5. My car is still not fully tuned yet, do to hot weather and engine heat soak preventing us from getting a decent tune, so there may still be more power to be had with the tune.
6. Considering someone who had an identical car as me with identical modifications as mine, but with a Stillen Gen 1 catback, dyno'd LOWER than my car, I was in no hurry to change out my exhaust.
7. Test pipes may make good power for the price, but they are a BIG no-no here in California. I also can't stand the raspiness or added sound levels, and wouldn't want the constant CEL light being on.
8. I heard too many stories of people's cars pinging after the Technosquare reflash to trust it.
9. MREV2 + 1/2" ISO Thermal Plenum Spacer is $741 before shipping at EverythingG35.com. You might be mistaking it for MREV (1) with ISO Thermal Plenum Spacer. I already have the 5/16" spacer and now a Hondata gasket (similar to ISO Thernal upgrade). I can't see spending $446 (and shipping) for the MREV2 on my non-RevUp engine. I just don't think the gains would be there to justify the cost.
All in all, I've spent about $3000 for around 30-40 additional whp compared to comperable stock 04 AT sedan. While that certainly is no bargain, it's still better than dropping $3k on cams and install by itself. Sometimes I wished I'd bought a forced induction domestic like a SVT Cobra or SRT-4, where $3k gets you around 100+ whp more. At least I have better reliability and a nicer looking vehicle.
Peace
Originally Posted by 4DrSkyline
I hope you understand where I'm coming from with what I have to say below. I am an informed buyer and have don't just purchase parts because a magazine or vendor makes claims of sizable power gains. I also have been dilligently trying to keep milestones on the dyno to know wheter or not I am honestly making power or not. I DO NOT accept any "butt dyno" readings.
With all that in mind, here are several other things to consider about my "$2k for 20hp":
1. I have an automatic transmission, so it has higher parasitic drag. Thus any gains will be lower than with a stick.
2. I have heavier 18" wheels vs. the stock 17" wheels that I started with, so my numbers will be lower than with the lighter/smaller stock wheels.
3. The DynoJet I go to has been running about 4-5% lower than most ever since they upgraded the WinPep software. This was shown between the 2004 and 2005 NorCal G35 Dyno Day comparisions against several vehicles which had done no other modifications. Same dyno. Similar weather conditions. All ran lower numbers.
4. The Unichip only cost me $400 shipped since it was used. I wouldn't have bought it if it was retail price.
5. My car is still not fully tuned yet, do to hot weather and engine heat soak preventing us from getting a decent tune, so there may still be more power to be had with the tune.
6. Considering someone who had an identical car as me with identical modifications as mine, but with a Stillen Gen 1 catback, dyno'd LOWER than my car, I was in no hurry to change out my exhaust.
7. Test pipes may make good power for the price, but they are a BIG no-no here in California. I also can't stand the raspiness or added sound levels, and wouldn't want the constant CEL light being on.
8. I heard too many stories of people's cars pinging after the Technosquare reflash to trust it.
9. MREV2 + 1/2" ISO Thermal Plenum Spacer is $741 before shipping at EverythingG35.com. You might be mistaking it for MREV (1) with ISO Thermal Plenum Spacer. I already have the 5/16" spacer and now a Hondata gasket (similar to ISO Thernal upgrade). I can't see spending $446 (and shipping) for the MREV2 on my non-RevUp engine. I just don't think the gains would be there to justify the cost.
All in all, I've spent about $3000 for around 30-40 additional whp compared to comperable stock 04 AT sedan. While that certainly is no bargain, it's still better than dropping $3k on cams and install by itself. Sometimes I wished I'd bought a forced induction domestic like a SVT Cobra or SRT-4, where $3k gets you around 100+ whp more. At least I have better reliability and a nicer looking vehicle.
Peace
With all that in mind, here are several other things to consider about my "$2k for 20hp":
1. I have an automatic transmission, so it has higher parasitic drag. Thus any gains will be lower than with a stick.
2. I have heavier 18" wheels vs. the stock 17" wheels that I started with, so my numbers will be lower than with the lighter/smaller stock wheels.
3. The DynoJet I go to has been running about 4-5% lower than most ever since they upgraded the WinPep software. This was shown between the 2004 and 2005 NorCal G35 Dyno Day comparisions against several vehicles which had done no other modifications. Same dyno. Similar weather conditions. All ran lower numbers.
4. The Unichip only cost me $400 shipped since it was used. I wouldn't have bought it if it was retail price.
5. My car is still not fully tuned yet, do to hot weather and engine heat soak preventing us from getting a decent tune, so there may still be more power to be had with the tune.
6. Considering someone who had an identical car as me with identical modifications as mine, but with a Stillen Gen 1 catback, dyno'd LOWER than my car, I was in no hurry to change out my exhaust.
7. Test pipes may make good power for the price, but they are a BIG no-no here in California. I also can't stand the raspiness or added sound levels, and wouldn't want the constant CEL light being on.
8. I heard too many stories of people's cars pinging after the Technosquare reflash to trust it.
9. MREV2 + 1/2" ISO Thermal Plenum Spacer is $741 before shipping at EverythingG35.com. You might be mistaking it for MREV (1) with ISO Thermal Plenum Spacer. I already have the 5/16" spacer and now a Hondata gasket (similar to ISO Thernal upgrade). I can't see spending $446 (and shipping) for the MREV2 on my non-RevUp engine. I just don't think the gains would be there to justify the cost.
All in all, I've spent about $3000 for around 30-40 additional whp compared to comperable stock 04 AT sedan. While that certainly is no bargain, it's still better than dropping $3k on cams and install by itself. Sometimes I wished I'd bought a forced induction domestic like a SVT Cobra or SRT-4, where $3k gets you around 100+ whp more. At least I have better reliability and a nicer looking vehicle.
Peace
With all that said - My first $4K was nothig but bolt ons me - Stillen CAI, Pulleys, MD 1/2" and MREV 2, Catback and CATS, TS Falsh and Apexi and Tune - My 05 AT - Non revUP as well - Dyno'd at 270HP and 260TQ. Just for the hell of it actually.
After all that - testing and all - I went the route of internals and the rest. By the way I have 19" wheels, aero and the rest. Butt dyno's don't count here either - I've dyno'd my car about 70 times...in between each mod and combination.
For those that know me - I'm THE research w h o r e....only qualified answers from this corner.
Rick
Originally Posted by ISMSOLUTIONS
That's cool -
With all that said - My first $4K was nothig but bolt ons me - Stillen CAI, Pulleys, MD 1/2" and MREV 2, Catback and CATS, TS Falsh and Apexi and Tune - My 05 AT - Non revUP as well - Dyno'd at 270HP and 260TQ. Just for the hell of it actually.
After all that - testing and all - I went the route of internals and the rest. By the way I have 19" wheels, aero and the rest. Butt dyno's don't count here either - I've dyno'd my car about 70 times...in between each mod and combination.
For those that know me - I'm THE research w h o r e....only qualified answers from this corner.
Rick
With all that said - My first $4K was nothig but bolt ons me - Stillen CAI, Pulleys, MD 1/2" and MREV 2, Catback and CATS, TS Falsh and Apexi and Tune - My 05 AT - Non revUP as well - Dyno'd at 270HP and 260TQ. Just for the hell of it actually.
After all that - testing and all - I went the route of internals and the rest. By the way I have 19" wheels, aero and the rest. Butt dyno's don't count here either - I've dyno'd my car about 70 times...in between each mod and combination.
For those that know me - I'm THE research w h o r e....only qualified answers from this corner.
Rick
What kind of dyno did you run on? Those numbers seem really stout, especially for an AT. Maybe there is something to be said for an exhaust upgrade and MREV2. Plus the newer engines do have a definite power advantage over the 03-04 models. A stock 06 AT sedan dyno'd at 225 hp/210 tq at the last Dyno Day (same place I go), much better than mine would have done stock.
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Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 61
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From: Towson area, MD
Originally Posted by dTor
...but don't do the real HP gaining mods, i.e. heads and cams?
Me personally, I'm doing the mods I did the enhance the sound and get a little more pep. I do realize that many people don't want to crack open the heads to swap the cams, but it seems that some of you think that intake and exhaust mods are the end-all, be-all to modding your car other than FI.
I was reading a thread on a Nissan forum, and there were more than a couple of people who were SURPRISED that a cam swap netted as much actual dyno HP as it did - about 20+ hp and 10-15 lb/ft, if I remember correctly. I recall one guy saying he thought there would only be a 5 HP gain!!! Madness!!!
For the same price as a nice catback system, which may or may not net you any gain in power, you can get a NISMO cam set and get real power, without having to do a thing to the rest of your car. Put some ported and polished heads on that sucker, and you're really going to be able to justify the need for a high flow intake and exhaust setup.
What do you all think? If I was really interested in making power, I'd do a head/cam swap in a second. I'm surprised I don't see more of these on this car as I do. Most of us can afford that kind of work, but a lot of people seem to lack the education or have grown up in the "fast & furious" culture of shiny intakes & fart pipes and don't realize the gains to be had by REAL engine mods.
(flame suit on)
Me personally, I'm doing the mods I did the enhance the sound and get a little more pep. I do realize that many people don't want to crack open the heads to swap the cams, but it seems that some of you think that intake and exhaust mods are the end-all, be-all to modding your car other than FI.
I was reading a thread on a Nissan forum, and there were more than a couple of people who were SURPRISED that a cam swap netted as much actual dyno HP as it did - about 20+ hp and 10-15 lb/ft, if I remember correctly. I recall one guy saying he thought there would only be a 5 HP gain!!! Madness!!!
For the same price as a nice catback system, which may or may not net you any gain in power, you can get a NISMO cam set and get real power, without having to do a thing to the rest of your car. Put some ported and polished heads on that sucker, and you're really going to be able to justify the need for a high flow intake and exhaust setup.
What do you all think? If I was really interested in making power, I'd do a head/cam swap in a second. I'm surprised I don't see more of these on this car as I do. Most of us can afford that kind of work, but a lot of people seem to lack the education or have grown up in the "fast & furious" culture of shiny intakes & fart pipes and don't realize the gains to be had by REAL engine mods.
(flame suit on)
all mods whether its breathing, or even lubrication... are all small pieces to a puzzle.
for whoever that mods their cars, it all depends on how far they are gonna go with it. some just simply want to increase the efficiency of the car. that might be a slightly free-er flowing intake and exhaust. and many figure, if you can get the same thing as a "z-tube" but have it shiny....why not.
some people honestly might not wanna get into cams. after modding a 2.2OHV in N/A form myself. i had to work with howell automotive, in Keyser WV for nearly a year to get a camshaft prototyped by crane cams. until gary howell helped out, no one really was willing to step up and do the ground work.... or even donate parts. granted the cam on that engine is in the BLOCK of all places, not many are gonna be willing to remove the timing chain....same goes for the VQ35. its a bit more indepth than just unbolting a few tubes, unplugging sensors, etc.
but honestly, in my experience, its the same as everyone wants to be fast and handle great....
so why do so many people by cheap ebay style coilovers (mainly the sport compact crowd), and then slam their car with virtually NO suspension travel to where they are riding on bump stops and wonder why it feels like it should handle, but it doesnt handle nearly as good as the guy who atleast has a 2-3 inch range of suspension articulation.
sure they feel their car looks great slammed, but anyone can notice it handles like refried whale poo when it comes to autoX...
i guess the main answer is everyones goals are different. any car i have, i just want it to handle GREAT. so i dont mind dropping 2-3000 on JUST coilovers. others i know want coilovers and pay 50$ for em on ebay and wonder why they bounce, even after the fact their stock struts were not meant to handle spring rates nearly 3 times as stiff. but they mainly just want the appearance.
different goals.
Originally Posted by 4DrSkyline
70 dynos?!? Dang! I thought I was bad with 30 dyno sheets (20 were from the tuning alone). I haven't been doing them with after every modification, mostly on Dyno Days or after a significant number of modifications. Keep up the good work!
What kind of dyno did you run on? Those numbers seem really stout, especially for an AT. Maybe there is something to be said for an exhaust upgrade and MREV2. Plus the newer engines do have a definite power advantage over the 03-04 models. A stock 06 AT sedan dyno'd at 225 hp/210 tq at the last Dyno Day (same place I go), much better than mine would have done stock.
What kind of dyno did you run on? Those numbers seem really stout, especially for an AT. Maybe there is something to be said for an exhaust upgrade and MREV2. Plus the newer engines do have a definite power advantage over the 03-04 models. A stock 06 AT sedan dyno'd at 225 hp/210 tq at the last Dyno Day (same place I go), much better than mine would have done stock.
My very first dyno - done at 243 miles on the car, when it was 3 days old, was 211 HP and 204 TQ!!! the car has come a LONG way since then...almost exactly a year ago.
Rick
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I think most people skip heads and cams due to not wanting to tear down a new car. Bolt ons are easy to do and are almost needed down the road when you finally step up to internal work.
$3-4K for aftermarket heads isn't that bad if they come fully ported and ready to go. If you want cams I say do them at the same time as heads and save yourself time and money. Get them setup with new springs, retainers, and make sure to degree them when you drop them into the car.
$3-4K for aftermarket heads isn't that bad if they come fully ported and ready to go. If you want cams I say do them at the same time as heads and save yourself time and money. Get them setup with new springs, retainers, and make sure to degree them when you drop them into the car.
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,359
Likes: 2
From: Atlanta, GA
Originally Posted by Serengettisandg
$3-4K for aftermarket heads isn't that bad if they come fully ported and ready to go.
It is when you're used to a VERY nice set of head (AFR, Dart Pro 1, etc) already PnP, upgraded springs, valves, retainers, etc. for around $2k. I had a set of AFR 190s PnP and larger diameter springs, already assembled, for about $1500.
I'm tired, so I won't go into too much detail right now, but my 2005 5AT sedan is pushing 256RWHP and 245RWTQ with the following power mods:
Initially I was planning on getting cams, as my tuner is 100% sure we can put down 280RWHP with them on top of my exisiting mods, but I have since decided not to dump any more money into the car.
At first I was ecstatic about the results. I was pulling on modded 6speed G's and Z's and keeping up with some other quick cars as well, but now that I look back at the $3,500 or so that those mods had costed me I'm not sure it was worth it. At the same time, I realize that going F/I for significantly more power would have costed me well over $6,000, but I think I would be happier to see gains of 120+WHP over stock than the current gains I've seen from NA mods/tuning...
- Weapon *R Ram-Air Intake
- MREV V2
- MREV 5/16 Copper Iso thermal spacer
- GroundingGear
- Topspeed Headers
- Crawford Cats
- Stillen Gen1 True Dual exhaust
- Unichip piggyback ECU
Initially I was planning on getting cams, as my tuner is 100% sure we can put down 280RWHP with them on top of my exisiting mods, but I have since decided not to dump any more money into the car.
At first I was ecstatic about the results. I was pulling on modded 6speed G's and Z's and keeping up with some other quick cars as well, but now that I look back at the $3,500 or so that those mods had costed me I'm not sure it was worth it. At the same time, I realize that going F/I for significantly more power would have costed me well over $6,000, but I think I would be happier to see gains of 120+WHP over stock than the current gains I've seen from NA mods/tuning...
vodkarocket -
No doubt - the mods you did are most of the mods you would do if you went FI anyways....most people do. The base FI setup is about $7500 installed and tuned right - but then add the rest - exhaust, etc...easily $10K when your really all said and done.
Many will spend about $4k or so - roughly 1/2 of FI and be happy..then wonder...then pony up and extra $5k-$7k if they really want to go that route.
That's why I always preach planning everything out before you start anything...that way you waste less money and build toward the ultimate goal.
Rick
No doubt - the mods you did are most of the mods you would do if you went FI anyways....most people do. The base FI setup is about $7500 installed and tuned right - but then add the rest - exhaust, etc...easily $10K when your really all said and done.
Many will spend about $4k or so - roughly 1/2 of FI and be happy..then wonder...then pony up and extra $5k-$7k if they really want to go that route.
That's why I always preach planning everything out before you start anything...that way you waste less money and build toward the ultimate goal.
Rick
I'm going down a similar path but it is planned that way. I bought my 06 sedan in January. Here I am just under 6 months later and I have the stereo, wheels, & suspension I want. I also have a 5/16" spacer, z-tube, intake, test pipes, cat-back, & grounding kit. This will be my current setup for now until I go FI. I too was very interested in the cam swap & Unichip with the current mods but I will have to hold back (hopefully) until I do go FI next year, then all bets are off, mod the hell out of it.
I initially had the intention of lighly modding this car- intake, exhaust, drop, wheels. After going to a local 350z meet and realizing how slow my car was, that intention was to prep my car for Vortech S/C. Somewhere along the lines of me building up the NA parts that I feel were necessary to run FI, I realized how much it would cost, and that for me, that cost was not worth in on a car that I'm not truly happy with (my G). That's pretty much where it ended...