Compiled GroundingGear™ Dyno Data
#31
04-07-2004, 06:03 AM
Re: Compiled GroundingGear™ Dyno Data
Gord,
Maybe this user was joking. Who in the right mind would do 30 dyno tests and consider doing double blind tests on a car product. I could see doing this for food products and drugs but not for car products.
I'm sure if you did all this someone would come back and say if you do another 30 dyno tests and have every major car magazine test it and have the US government test it they would still not believe it.
I ordered your kit not for the hp and torque gains but for the smoothness claims from product users and hopefully some better gas mileage. If anything those grounding wires make the engine bay look nicer. If I get any increased hp then thats just icing on the cake. Like I was telling you I'm conducting a little gas mileage study and when I get the grounding kit installed I will starting doing a comparision of city and highway driving mileage. I will post the results of my study in a few months.
Keep up the good work and I look forward to getting my GroundingGear kit soon.
Thanks
James
Maybe this user was joking. Who in the right mind would do 30 dyno tests and consider doing double blind tests on a car product. I could see doing this for food products and drugs but not for car products.
I'm sure if you did all this someone would come back and say if you do another 30 dyno tests and have every major car magazine test it and have the US government test it they would still not believe it.
I ordered your kit not for the hp and torque gains but for the smoothness claims from product users and hopefully some better gas mileage. If anything those grounding wires make the engine bay look nicer. If I get any increased hp then thats just icing on the cake. Like I was telling you I'm conducting a little gas mileage study and when I get the grounding kit installed I will starting doing a comparision of city and highway driving mileage. I will post the results of my study in a few months.
Keep up the good work and I look forward to getting my GroundingGear kit soon.
Thanks
James
#32
04-07-2004, 09:04 AM
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Re: Compiled GroundingGear™ Dyno Data
Homey,
Anyone that wants "indisputable" claims would do 30 runs on the dyno (it's the best method to to statistically rule out "chance" as a cause of differences in an experiement). The double blind study would be appropriate if he wanted "indisputable" claims from customer reports. Until then, it's not really "indisputable". That was my main point. As a marketer or entrepeneur, I certainly wouldn't do 30 runs, although big companies like K&N certainly would. In aviation companies go through a helluva lot more than that to "prove" their mods indisputably. The FDA is another example.
I'd do exactly what Gordo is doing. As a psychotherapist and self proclaimed entrepeneur, he's well versed in the way the consumer thinks. We all want a cheap, do it yourself, mod to personalize our vehicles. Suddenly "group think" occurs and everyone will start convincing one another that something works to rationalize their decision. Gordo knows this and exploits it and I think that's great. I applaud his marketing skills. By leveraging this thread he can post testimonials which is a common tactic among marketers, especially in the weight loss, sexual enhancement industry, and I think this is no different. That's just my opinion and I wanted to voice it as I'm big on questioning things that just don't quite feel right to me. Hopefully we're able to do it in a civilized way and I think so far we have.
I don't know whether this product works, or doesn't work. If I see evidence or hear an explanation that rules out chance and group think, I will purchase it. It doesn't really effect my decision "why" Gordo does this, nor is the comparison to cosmetic mods relevant to me. Until then I can find no reason to, as it just doesn't make sense to me. "Smooth" is so subjective and it is impossible to quanitify gas mileage improvements as there are hundreds of variables that will determine gas mileage. It is difficult to control for all of them.
"Looks good" is also subjective. I find that it looks like a tangle dishevled mess under there with all those wires. I prefer the clean, diminuitive look. To each his own and I'm not really trying to debate that. Some have claimed transmission qualities that, like I've mentioned, I already acheive in my 2004.5 "ungrounded" vehicle. For instance one person reported they couldn't shift into 5th before, but they can now. My car shifts into 5th quite easily at about 40 mph with 3/4 throttle. It idles at 400-450 when it's hot, and if I turn the air conditioning on it goes up to 600. Shifting is already "smooth" and in fact, too smooth. I'd prefer a more aggressive shift.
So in summary, my point is just to challenge whether this is "indisputable" or not. I still haven't seen anything indisputable and until real clinical or laboratory studies are done, I'll stick to mods that I can actually verify through scientific explanation or proper experimentation. For instance, measuring the mass airflow will verify whether an intake actually works...maybe the "ground" could be measured, or the ECU reaction time could be compared based on the quality of the ground? I don't know, I'm not an electrician, but these are the kinds of things I want to see before buying a mod.
By the way homey, unless you control for temperature, terrain, fuel quality, your foot, etc. etc., your experiment won't really be valid either. "Reactivity effect" otherwise known as the Westinghouse experiement (I think, don't hold me to this one) is a demonstration that illustrates how humans change their behavior when they know there's an experiement going on.
To really find out if gas mileage improves you'd really need to do something other than tool around town for a month writing down your gas mileage from your Nav. How could it possibly change the mileage anyway? Does grounding lean the fuel mixture? Why would it? Since an engine is nothing more than an air pump, fuel mileage increases when either drag, weight, or fuel mixture, or intake decreases. How would more grounding improve that? I really doubt the ECU knows to lean the mixture because it's got a better ground.
Anyway, good luck with it, I could be wrong, and hope I am. I too would love to have a cheap mod that I can install myself as I enjoy playing around with my car when theres nothing else to do.
Anyone that wants "indisputable" claims would do 30 runs on the dyno (it's the best method to to statistically rule out "chance" as a cause of differences in an experiement). The double blind study would be appropriate if he wanted "indisputable" claims from customer reports. Until then, it's not really "indisputable". That was my main point. As a marketer or entrepeneur, I certainly wouldn't do 30 runs, although big companies like K&N certainly would. In aviation companies go through a helluva lot more than that to "prove" their mods indisputably. The FDA is another example.
I'd do exactly what Gordo is doing. As a psychotherapist and self proclaimed entrepeneur, he's well versed in the way the consumer thinks. We all want a cheap, do it yourself, mod to personalize our vehicles. Suddenly "group think" occurs and everyone will start convincing one another that something works to rationalize their decision. Gordo knows this and exploits it and I think that's great. I applaud his marketing skills. By leveraging this thread he can post testimonials which is a common tactic among marketers, especially in the weight loss, sexual enhancement industry, and I think this is no different. That's just my opinion and I wanted to voice it as I'm big on questioning things that just don't quite feel right to me. Hopefully we're able to do it in a civilized way and I think so far we have.
I don't know whether this product works, or doesn't work. If I see evidence or hear an explanation that rules out chance and group think, I will purchase it. It doesn't really effect my decision "why" Gordo does this, nor is the comparison to cosmetic mods relevant to me. Until then I can find no reason to, as it just doesn't make sense to me. "Smooth" is so subjective and it is impossible to quanitify gas mileage improvements as there are hundreds of variables that will determine gas mileage. It is difficult to control for all of them.
"Looks good" is also subjective. I find that it looks like a tangle dishevled mess under there with all those wires. I prefer the clean, diminuitive look. To each his own and I'm not really trying to debate that. Some have claimed transmission qualities that, like I've mentioned, I already acheive in my 2004.5 "ungrounded" vehicle. For instance one person reported they couldn't shift into 5th before, but they can now. My car shifts into 5th quite easily at about 40 mph with 3/4 throttle. It idles at 400-450 when it's hot, and if I turn the air conditioning on it goes up to 600. Shifting is already "smooth" and in fact, too smooth. I'd prefer a more aggressive shift.
So in summary, my point is just to challenge whether this is "indisputable" or not. I still haven't seen anything indisputable and until real clinical or laboratory studies are done, I'll stick to mods that I can actually verify through scientific explanation or proper experimentation. For instance, measuring the mass airflow will verify whether an intake actually works...maybe the "ground" could be measured, or the ECU reaction time could be compared based on the quality of the ground? I don't know, I'm not an electrician, but these are the kinds of things I want to see before buying a mod.
By the way homey, unless you control for temperature, terrain, fuel quality, your foot, etc. etc., your experiment won't really be valid either. "Reactivity effect" otherwise known as the Westinghouse experiement (I think, don't hold me to this one) is a demonstration that illustrates how humans change their behavior when they know there's an experiement going on.
To really find out if gas mileage improves you'd really need to do something other than tool around town for a month writing down your gas mileage from your Nav. How could it possibly change the mileage anyway? Does grounding lean the fuel mixture? Why would it? Since an engine is nothing more than an air pump, fuel mileage increases when either drag, weight, or fuel mixture, or intake decreases. How would more grounding improve that? I really doubt the ECU knows to lean the mixture because it's got a better ground.
Anyway, good luck with it, I could be wrong, and hope I am. I too would love to have a cheap mod that I can install myself as I enjoy playing around with my car when theres nothing else to do.
#33
04-07-2004, 09:11 AM
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Re: Compiled GroundingGear™ Dyno Data
Gordo,
The pulley mod wouldn't even require a dyno run as I can prove the HP gains with differential equations. No need for a clinical experiment, physics proves it. That's one of my points.... I'd love to see one of the following: 1) a double blind study conducted from the butt dyno 2) a mathematical example of how it will improve something 3) a properly conducted dyno experiment (which needs to be repeatable to be reliable...basic experimental methodology here, not unreasonable).
I'm not saying you should do this. As you've stated you do it cause your a good guy, giving people what they want, at expense to you somewhat. I'm just saying that it's not "indisputable" and I'm not going to jump on this bandwagon until I've got more evidence.
Not trying to be contentious, but I had to address the pulley example as it's precisely my point. Show me the math!
.
The pulley mod wouldn't even require a dyno run as I can prove the HP gains with differential equations. No need for a clinical experiment, physics proves it. That's one of my points.... I'd love to see one of the following: 1) a double blind study conducted from the butt dyno 2) a mathematical example of how it will improve something 3) a properly conducted dyno experiment (which needs to be repeatable to be reliable...basic experimental methodology here, not unreasonable).
I'm not saying you should do this. As you've stated you do it cause your a good guy, giving people what they want, at expense to you somewhat. I'm just saying that it's not "indisputable" and I'm not going to jump on this bandwagon until I've got more evidence.
Not trying to be contentious, but I had to address the pulley example as it's precisely my point. Show me the math!
.
#34
04-07-2004, 09:22 AM
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Re: Compiled GroundingGear™ Dyno Data
Steve,
I read the whole thread. His efforts were admirable, and I admire him and his efforts. But it wasn't as scientific as possible. Not scientific enough to be indisputable. Just scientific enough to market a product well. Sorry.
WTF? WTF about 30 is that it's the number of times an experiment must be conducted to employ the proper statistical calculations to rule out "chance" as the cause of the result. When you read a medical journal or the results of an actual scientifc experiment done they will cite p=< .05 or something like that. They have used a Z score or a difference of means test, which is a mathematical way of determining whether or not it's your imagination, chance, or actually because of the independent variable; and, that if you did it 100 times, only 5 of those times would be because of chance.
Do a search on research methodology and statistics and study up a little....it will change the way you look at advertising and politics.
I read the whole thread. His efforts were admirable, and I admire him and his efforts. But it wasn't as scientific as possible. Not scientific enough to be indisputable. Just scientific enough to market a product well. Sorry.
WTF? WTF about 30 is that it's the number of times an experiment must be conducted to employ the proper statistical calculations to rule out "chance" as the cause of the result. When you read a medical journal or the results of an actual scientifc experiment done they will cite p=< .05 or something like that. They have used a Z score or a difference of means test, which is a mathematical way of determining whether or not it's your imagination, chance, or actually because of the independent variable; and, that if you did it 100 times, only 5 of those times would be because of chance.
Do a search on research methodology and statistics and study up a little....it will change the way you look at advertising and politics.
#35
04-07-2004, 10:48 AM
Re: Compiled GroundingGear™ Dyno Data
Dude - "scientific as possible". I think that's a waste of time. Its a $60 kit for jesus sake. How many will he sell before he has to buy a dyno shop for people who get overly excited about statistic's. "double blind test" WTF?
If you want to just have fun modding your car as the last line of your most recent post states then you dont need independent empirical testing to enjoy this little kit.
It's verifiable by the girlfriends or boyfriends who drive the car and dont know they are in a westinghouse experiment that say "hey honey did you make the car better". You know like my GF who doesn't know a cylinder from a wiper blade but can state qualititatively that the car runs better. Thats all I need to verify what my own butt tells me and pleny of engineers CAN do the math on why the kit works as well.
Likenening gords work or business to internet spamming of "dic be big" is a rather lame cheap shot if you ask me. I could care less but I seem compelled to point out that you dont have one so your attempts to suggest that we are making up the gains or dont know our cars well enough to discern that the rmp drops and the start ups are better is absurd. It sounds like you just got out of stats class and want to apply it to your reasoning to not enjoy something the rest of us can clearly say is the best bang for buck mod out there...but you wont know unless you have a little blind faith and try it without $1 million in R&D for a mathematically provable theory...
Your hobby is either stats or cars and not both perhaps...
2003.5 DP Sedan (Everything but Nav)
Injen CAI
7 Wire HyperGround (Soon to be 10)
Crawford Plenum (V4)
H-Liner
Polk Tweeter Upgrade (EX-3500)
Coming Soon: Lite Crank Pulley, Motion Sensor
If you want to just have fun modding your car as the last line of your most recent post states then you dont need independent empirical testing to enjoy this little kit.
It's verifiable by the girlfriends or boyfriends who drive the car and dont know they are in a westinghouse experiment that say "hey honey did you make the car better". You know like my GF who doesn't know a cylinder from a wiper blade but can state qualititatively that the car runs better. Thats all I need to verify what my own butt tells me and pleny of engineers CAN do the math on why the kit works as well.
Likenening gords work or business to internet spamming of "dic be big" is a rather lame cheap shot if you ask me. I could care less but I seem compelled to point out that you dont have one so your attempts to suggest that we are making up the gains or dont know our cars well enough to discern that the rmp drops and the start ups are better is absurd. It sounds like you just got out of stats class and want to apply it to your reasoning to not enjoy something the rest of us can clearly say is the best bang for buck mod out there...but you wont know unless you have a little blind faith and try it without $1 million in R&D for a mathematically provable theory...
Your hobby is either stats or cars and not both perhaps...
2003.5 DP Sedan (Everything but Nav)
Injen CAI
7 Wire HyperGround (Soon to be 10)
Crawford Plenum (V4)
H-Liner
Polk Tweeter Upgrade (EX-3500)
Coming Soon: Lite Crank Pulley, Motion Sensor
#36
04-07-2004, 10:52 AM
Re: Compiled GroundingGear™ Dyno Data
PS
Stats dont help people appreciate politics. Marketing of stats is what help you appreciate marketing. I've taken more stats that I know what to do with and I can assure most that the only thing you can apply to real life using a Z-score invloves more crap than its worth unless you do for a living or fun.
In other word you can see BS coming without even understanding z-scores and type II errors. No one calls this BS exepct people who haven't bought them!
2003.5 DP Sedan (Everything but Nav)
Injen CAI
7 Wire HyperGround (Soon to be 10)
Crawford Plenum (V4)
H-Liner
Polk Tweeter Upgrade (EX-3500)
Coming Soon: Lite Crank Pulley, Motion Sensor
Stats dont help people appreciate politics. Marketing of stats is what help you appreciate marketing. I've taken more stats that I know what to do with and I can assure most that the only thing you can apply to real life using a Z-score invloves more crap than its worth unless you do for a living or fun.
In other word you can see BS coming without even understanding z-scores and type II errors. No one calls this BS exepct people who haven't bought them!
2003.5 DP Sedan (Everything but Nav)
Injen CAI
7 Wire HyperGround (Soon to be 10)
Crawford Plenum (V4)
H-Liner
Polk Tweeter Upgrade (EX-3500)
Coming Soon: Lite Crank Pulley, Motion Sensor
#37
04-07-2004, 11:54 AM
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Re: Compiled GroundingGear™ Dyno Data
Steve,
You wouldn't need to explain HP gains for a super charger with a dyno, you could do that with math. Like I said, one of the three techniques would show me indisputable evidence. In the case of the supercharger, mass air flow tests or cfm calculations would be sufficient.
And I'm not trying to dog your decision to buy the kit. I'm trying to point out that there is not indisputable evidence that the grounding changes any performance.
You wouldn't need to explain HP gains for a super charger with a dyno, you could do that with math. Like I said, one of the three techniques would show me indisputable evidence. In the case of the supercharger, mass air flow tests or cfm calculations would be sufficient.
And I'm not trying to dog your decision to buy the kit. I'm trying to point out that there is not indisputable evidence that the grounding changes any performance.
#38
04-07-2004, 12:25 PM
Re: Compiled GroundingGear™ Dyno Data
For 60 bucks who needs evidence other that what one can surmise out of ones butt. How about you try it and if you dont like it sell it or send it back..no amount of wishing is going to get you evidnece at that level. Math can also prove the thoery that grounding points being focalized or centralized is better for the ECU - can it not?
2003.5 DP Sedan (Everything but Nav)
Injen CAI
7 Wire HyperGround (Soon to be 10)
Crawford Plenum (V4)
H-Liner
Polk Tweeter Upgrade (EX-3500)
Coming Soon: Lite Crank Pulley, Motion Sensor
2003.5 DP Sedan (Everything but Nav)
Injen CAI
7 Wire HyperGround (Soon to be 10)
Crawford Plenum (V4)
H-Liner
Polk Tweeter Upgrade (EX-3500)
Coming Soon: Lite Crank Pulley, Motion Sensor
#39
04-07-2004, 12:45 PM
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Re: Compiled GroundingGear™ Dyno Data
"Math can also prove the thoery that grounding points being focalized or centralized is better for the ECU - can it not?"
Can it? I don't know. I don't know enough about how the ECU works to know whether that would provide any benefit. I know that providing more air into the cylinder will draw more fuel in there with it and it can be measured, thus I will spend money on a SC or improved exhausts, manifolds, and intakes.
If I were to read some similar or sensible information on the grounding topic with a reasonable explanation, then I would spend my $60. So far I've just read that "at high RPMs the ECU starts getting extraneous signals and has to work harder, etc etc" Ok, fine...so what does grounding it better do? Does it allow the ECU to be faster, and if so, does a faster ECU translate to faster shifts, or smoother shifts? Heck I don't know, and neither do you, and neither does Gord (he doesn't claim to know, he just claims he's providing a product as a favor to you guys).
So far I haven't seen any reasonable explanation as to how it could possibly make shifting "smoother", which is really the only benefit everyone can seems to comment on and agree with the butt dyno. And this is my issue...."smooth" is very subjective and susceptible to suggestion. Thus, I'm a naysayer on this one. No need to to take it personally (or make ad hominem attacks on my genitals), you pays your nickle and you get your wires. Good for you. I hope you like them, I really do, but still don't think it's indisputable that there's performance gains to be had.
Can it? I don't know. I don't know enough about how the ECU works to know whether that would provide any benefit. I know that providing more air into the cylinder will draw more fuel in there with it and it can be measured, thus I will spend money on a SC or improved exhausts, manifolds, and intakes.
If I were to read some similar or sensible information on the grounding topic with a reasonable explanation, then I would spend my $60. So far I've just read that "at high RPMs the ECU starts getting extraneous signals and has to work harder, etc etc" Ok, fine...so what does grounding it better do? Does it allow the ECU to be faster, and if so, does a faster ECU translate to faster shifts, or smoother shifts? Heck I don't know, and neither do you, and neither does Gord (he doesn't claim to know, he just claims he's providing a product as a favor to you guys).
So far I haven't seen any reasonable explanation as to how it could possibly make shifting "smoother", which is really the only benefit everyone can seems to comment on and agree with the butt dyno. And this is my issue...."smooth" is very subjective and susceptible to suggestion. Thus, I'm a naysayer on this one. No need to to take it personally (or make ad hominem attacks on my genitals), you pays your nickle and you get your wires. Good for you. I hope you like them, I really do, but still don't think it's indisputable that there's performance gains to be had.
#40
04-07-2004, 02:05 PM
Re: Compiled GroundingGear™ Dyno Data
"So far I haven't seen any reasonable explanation as to how it could possibly make shifting "smoother", which is really the only benefit everyone can seems to comment on and agree with the butt dyno. And this is my issue...."smooth" is very subjective and susceptible to suggestion. Thus, I'm a naysayer on this one. No need to to take it personally (or make ad hominem attacks on my genitals), you pays your nickle and you get your wires. Good for you. I hope you like them, I really do, but still don't think it's indisputable that there's performance gains to be had. "
Look dont take it personally - i dont care if i am the only one who believes this product works or not. The point is you likened the wires (i bought from z-extreme) gord makes as junk sold on the internet via spam. You need not be worried that I have somehow associated you with needing these sexual enhacement products..read it again and you'll see i am referring to your comments about gord product not your stature...
God/Allah/Jesus is disputable - do we need a z-score to go to church? my point is that you dont like the concept so dont buy it but dont try and tell people who own them and know immediately the benfit, that they are junk until proven otherwise. Either you'll try them and like them or you'll just be guessing that they dont work. Try and question the work to show verifiable results in a more cosntructive manner instead of showing paranoia that a some marketing from a PHD in Psyc is going to steal you dough and one up you like the a-holes who infiltrate our kids emial bin..ABSURD I SAY
PS have you looked at the hypergropund thread with the 100 pages of detailed and reasonable explanations for why this might work...
2003.5 DP Sedan (Everything but Nav)
Injen CAI
7 Wire HyperGround (Soon to be 10)
Crawford Plenum (V4)
H-Liner
Polk Tweeter Upgrade (EX-3500)
Coming Soon: Lite Crank Pulley, Motion Sensor
<P ID="edit"><FONT class="small"><EM>Edited by SixFive on 04/07/04 11:07 AM.</EM></FONT></P>
Look dont take it personally - i dont care if i am the only one who believes this product works or not. The point is you likened the wires (i bought from z-extreme) gord makes as junk sold on the internet via spam. You need not be worried that I have somehow associated you with needing these sexual enhacement products..read it again and you'll see i am referring to your comments about gord product not your stature...
God/Allah/Jesus is disputable - do we need a z-score to go to church? my point is that you dont like the concept so dont buy it but dont try and tell people who own them and know immediately the benfit, that they are junk until proven otherwise. Either you'll try them and like them or you'll just be guessing that they dont work. Try and question the work to show verifiable results in a more cosntructive manner instead of showing paranoia that a some marketing from a PHD in Psyc is going to steal you dough and one up you like the a-holes who infiltrate our kids emial bin..ABSURD I SAY
PS have you looked at the hypergropund thread with the 100 pages of detailed and reasonable explanations for why this might work...
2003.5 DP Sedan (Everything but Nav)
Injen CAI
7 Wire HyperGround (Soon to be 10)
Crawford Plenum (V4)
H-Liner
Polk Tweeter Upgrade (EX-3500)
Coming Soon: Lite Crank Pulley, Motion Sensor
<P ID="edit"><FONT class="small"><EM>Edited by SixFive on 04/07/04 11:07 AM.</EM></FONT></P>
#41
04-07-2004, 02:27 PM
Re: Compiled GroundingGear™ Dyno Data
Catatafish:
I'm really not sure why or how the H-G Systems work, we have only theories at this point. I've had many long late evening discussions with several EEs on this. Some dynos done with A/F data shows that it decreases the ratio somewhat, thereby making the mix a bit richer, so I'm not sure why you'd see a fuel saving. It may also make the injectors more responsive, which would explain at least partially why there are overwhelming reports of better throttle response. And the smoothness typically reported is with the engine, coming closer to that feeling you get when you drive the in-line 6 on a BMW. The smoothness and throttle response is the first thing that I immediately noticed, as do most others that have tried this mod.
The most interesting thing is, as mentioned before, is that many of the "significant-others" of the car owners who know nothing about cars, nor know this was done to the car, report a difference, significant enough to question "what changed?".
Diane, one of our forum members, installed GroundingGear™ into her car without her electrical-engineer boyfriend knowing as he had specifically 'poo-poo'd' this as being snake-oil. She set him up with a 'blind' drive, and he noticed a significant difference the first time he drove the car, After researching further, he asked me if I could do his BMWs! (Check out her post "Even Girls Can Do It!" or somesuch)
There are numerous other accounts of similar experiences where ppl that didn't know and therefore couldn't be influenced by expectation, making the same comments of "Something's definitely different and better, what did you do to the car?"
Aren't these blind studies?
The local Audi dealership's GM doesn't believe in most mods, including CAIs, chips, exhausts, etc. Keith had me do his A6 CONVINCED that it would do nothing! He noticed differences before the car even left the parking lot. He tried to convince one of the skeptical salesmen-car enthusiasts of this unsuccessfully, and simply concluded "What can I tell you? I really know my car, and I didn't think it would do anything, but it did!"
There are few if any tests to conduct other than blind test drives to back up the claims of smoothness and better throttle response. I think there is enough empirical reports to back this up, certainly more than 30.
In Canada, these kits (basic 5 wire and some constructed questionably) go for $200 to $260. Maybe some do it for the 'Engine Jewelry" aspect, I don't know. I try to manufacture GroundingGear™ with all the current theory in mind to better the chance that a quality kit will be installed where the owner MAY notice the difference.
It's effect seems to vary somewhat on the particular vehicle. The GM at the local Infiniti dealership who got me started in this in the first place has it in 3 of his cars. Both he and his wife notice it most in her G35 where he says it makes a VERY NOTICEABLE difference. Not quite as much in his Frontier, but still consistently noticeable. On his 350Z, the first car I did for him, he says "Some days, yes, definitely, other days, no!"
I've done several of the staff's cars there, all but one feeling that it made a significant and noticeable difference. The one guy, a sales manager, in his '91 300zx, thought it actually made some things a little worse! His is the only comment that I've ever had that has been negative. One of the service guys says his car had numerous service issues thoughout it's history, so I'm not sure what the full story is. One of the service writers that races stocks, and IMC Moddified class did his BMW and reported a significant change.
Despite this, what ever anybody says isn't going to change the minds of those that are convinced that they shouldn't ever put it in their cars, and I respect that. But it's a mod that I've come to believe in as one of the most cost efficient and effective mods, based on the copious amounts of positive feedback I've received. I'm not a salesman, or I'd be making a hell of a lot more money than I am (my accountant's disappointed in me). (One of the pharmaceutical companies approached me many years ago to sell one of their pyschotropic meds, but I didn't believe much in the product and I turned them down)
Oh, and GroundingGear™ is a bit more than $60. Canadian dealerships sell out of their parts departments for $210 to $260 (Lexus 7-Wire). For forum members, my basic set of 5 wires for the G35 only, goes for the same as the popular Z-Extreme kits which have their own loyal following.
[b]<font color=blue>Now let's settle down on this thread, stop all the name calling and inferences, and return to some civility in discussion.
<font color=blue>[i]GroundingGear™ Equipped </font color=blue>
I'm really not sure why or how the H-G Systems work, we have only theories at this point. I've had many long late evening discussions with several EEs on this. Some dynos done with A/F data shows that it decreases the ratio somewhat, thereby making the mix a bit richer, so I'm not sure why you'd see a fuel saving. It may also make the injectors more responsive, which would explain at least partially why there are overwhelming reports of better throttle response. And the smoothness typically reported is with the engine, coming closer to that feeling you get when you drive the in-line 6 on a BMW. The smoothness and throttle response is the first thing that I immediately noticed, as do most others that have tried this mod.
The most interesting thing is, as mentioned before, is that many of the "significant-others" of the car owners who know nothing about cars, nor know this was done to the car, report a difference, significant enough to question "what changed?".
Diane, one of our forum members, installed GroundingGear™ into her car without her electrical-engineer boyfriend knowing as he had specifically 'poo-poo'd' this as being snake-oil. She set him up with a 'blind' drive, and he noticed a significant difference the first time he drove the car, After researching further, he asked me if I could do his BMWs! (Check out her post "Even Girls Can Do It!" or somesuch)
There are numerous other accounts of similar experiences where ppl that didn't know and therefore couldn't be influenced by expectation, making the same comments of "Something's definitely different and better, what did you do to the car?"
Aren't these blind studies?
The local Audi dealership's GM doesn't believe in most mods, including CAIs, chips, exhausts, etc. Keith had me do his A6 CONVINCED that it would do nothing! He noticed differences before the car even left the parking lot. He tried to convince one of the skeptical salesmen-car enthusiasts of this unsuccessfully, and simply concluded "What can I tell you? I really know my car, and I didn't think it would do anything, but it did!"
There are few if any tests to conduct other than blind test drives to back up the claims of smoothness and better throttle response. I think there is enough empirical reports to back this up, certainly more than 30.
In Canada, these kits (basic 5 wire and some constructed questionably) go for $200 to $260. Maybe some do it for the 'Engine Jewelry" aspect, I don't know. I try to manufacture GroundingGear™ with all the current theory in mind to better the chance that a quality kit will be installed where the owner MAY notice the difference.
It's effect seems to vary somewhat on the particular vehicle. The GM at the local Infiniti dealership who got me started in this in the first place has it in 3 of his cars. Both he and his wife notice it most in her G35 where he says it makes a VERY NOTICEABLE difference. Not quite as much in his Frontier, but still consistently noticeable. On his 350Z, the first car I did for him, he says "Some days, yes, definitely, other days, no!"
I've done several of the staff's cars there, all but one feeling that it made a significant and noticeable difference. The one guy, a sales manager, in his '91 300zx, thought it actually made some things a little worse! His is the only comment that I've ever had that has been negative. One of the service guys says his car had numerous service issues thoughout it's history, so I'm not sure what the full story is. One of the service writers that races stocks, and IMC Moddified class did his BMW and reported a significant change.
Despite this, what ever anybody says isn't going to change the minds of those that are convinced that they shouldn't ever put it in their cars, and I respect that. But it's a mod that I've come to believe in as one of the most cost efficient and effective mods, based on the copious amounts of positive feedback I've received. I'm not a salesman, or I'd be making a hell of a lot more money than I am (my accountant's disappointed in me). (One of the pharmaceutical companies approached me many years ago to sell one of their pyschotropic meds, but I didn't believe much in the product and I turned them down)
Oh, and GroundingGear™ is a bit more than $60. Canadian dealerships sell out of their parts departments for $210 to $260 (Lexus 7-Wire). For forum members, my basic set of 5 wires for the G35 only, goes for the same as the popular Z-Extreme kits which have their own loyal following.
[b]<font color=blue>Now let's settle down on this thread, stop all the name calling and inferences, and return to some civility in discussion.
<font color=blue>[i]GroundingGear™ Equipped </font color=blue>
#42
04-07-2004, 02:41 PM
Re: Compiled GroundingGear™ Dyno Data
Sorry about this misqoute for the price...
How would one statistically demonstrate a sigificant imrovement in exhaust gurgle reduction...thats the first thing i noticed....
PS got the 8-10 yesterday thanks
2003.5 DP Sedan (Everything but Nav)
Injen CAI
7 Wire HyperGround (Soon to be 10)
Crawford Plenum (V4)
H-Liner
Polk Tweeter Upgrade (EX-3500)
Coming Soon: Lite Crank Pulley, Motion Sensor
How would one statistically demonstrate a sigificant imrovement in exhaust gurgle reduction...thats the first thing i noticed....
PS got the 8-10 yesterday thanks
2003.5 DP Sedan (Everything but Nav)
Injen CAI
7 Wire HyperGround (Soon to be 10)
Crawford Plenum (V4)
H-Liner
Polk Tweeter Upgrade (EX-3500)
Coming Soon: Lite Crank Pulley, Motion Sensor
#43
04-07-2004, 03:16 PM
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Re: Compiled GroundingGear™ Dyno Data
Surely Gord, as a psychotherapist, you are aware of the impacts of suggestion on the human mind. Heck, I swear to God that everytime I wash my car it improves suspension and handling characteristics.
For the umpteenth time, I'm not trying to be disparaging or say that your product does not work or dog anyone for their decision to purchase it. Furthermore I'm not so unconvinced that I will never put one in my car. I'm simply stating that there is no indisputable evidence that proves this enhances performance, anymore than there is indisputable evidence that ginseng or a spanish fly enhances sexual performance. I would like to buy this product, so I can't be lumped in the naysayer category, I'm simply stating that I won't by it until I have the kind of evidence that is available for other mods, such as those that increase airflow.
I knew I'd get lots of flames over this, but I stuck my neck out anyway. Actually only one poster has approached flame status, and Gord I appreciate all the time you take in posting. I just wish there was something more solid I could see other than a few dynos and alot of heresay (sp?). PLEASE, if you have a link or anything that gets into more detail or more solid proof, refer me to it as I would love to have such a cheap improvement! This is all I'm going to say about it, and Gord or Steve if you'd like to private message me with something more tangible my analytic mind can grasp, please do so. I'd also like to know why some say that it's only effective if you post to the negative battery terminal, and your wires seem to go all over the place....some places I wouldn't even think of as grounds. Thanks for the chat!
For the umpteenth time, I'm not trying to be disparaging or say that your product does not work or dog anyone for their decision to purchase it. Furthermore I'm not so unconvinced that I will never put one in my car. I'm simply stating that there is no indisputable evidence that proves this enhances performance, anymore than there is indisputable evidence that ginseng or a spanish fly enhances sexual performance. I would like to buy this product, so I can't be lumped in the naysayer category, I'm simply stating that I won't by it until I have the kind of evidence that is available for other mods, such as those that increase airflow.
I knew I'd get lots of flames over this, but I stuck my neck out anyway. Actually only one poster has approached flame status, and Gord I appreciate all the time you take in posting. I just wish there was something more solid I could see other than a few dynos and alot of heresay (sp?). PLEASE, if you have a link or anything that gets into more detail or more solid proof, refer me to it as I would love to have such a cheap improvement! This is all I'm going to say about it, and Gord or Steve if you'd like to private message me with something more tangible my analytic mind can grasp, please do so. I'd also like to know why some say that it's only effective if you post to the negative battery terminal, and your wires seem to go all over the place....some places I wouldn't even think of as grounds. Thanks for the chat!
#44
04-07-2004, 08:16 PM
Re: Compiled GroundingGear™ Dyno Data
You must be a engineer of some kind or wanted to be!!!!! I understand the need for test results but it still seems like that many dyno test will never please you. I know this because I had the pleasure of being a tester at one of the places I worked at and my studies and test results went to the engineering department and no matter how many tests I would run I would always get a engineer who would want more and more tests. Anyway I was just making fun at your post in this thread. I understand both sides of the arguement but I've researched so many forums on this subject of the grounding kit I figured what the heck if anything my engine bay would look cooler. I've seen so many modifications on other cars that only enhanced the look of the vehicle and these owners spent many hundreds of dollars or thousands of dollars on it. But enough ranting..
Good Hunting to you all!
Good Hunting to you all!
#45
04-07-2004, 10:24 PM
