Water/Methanol Injection
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 3,165
Likes: 0
From: Kalifornia
Water/Methanol Injection
OK kids... let's bring some more WW2 technology into discussion.
Recently, a group of us drag raced at LACR out in Palmdale (2600' elev & 100 degrees). Heat and lack of oxygen is huge factor in posting up some numbers. So I have been looking at ways to help out my buddy Gurgen with his TTs. The idea is, get Gurgen excited and let him test it out before I do something [img]/w3timages/icons/tongue.gif[/img]
So, looking at ways to give him more air, while cooling his system I cam across a few diff methods.
<font color=blue>A) Water / Methanol Injection:</font color=blue> taken from http://snowperformance.net and echoed on many other like sites...
1. What are the benefits of Water/Methanol injection?
Boost Cooler Benefits (Gasoline):
* Low cost - where else can you get up to 60HP for $299.
* More power than other means of detonation control.
* Efficiency - leaner air fuel ratio can be utilized for normal operation.
* Greatly increases air charge densities for huge horsepower increases.
2. Do I need an Intercooler with Water/Methanol injection?
Up to approximately 20 psi boost, water/methanol injection will provide all the density increase/detonation control needed in most applications. Of course, Intercooling and water/methanol injection would provide even greater benefits especially beyond 20 psi boost. Most air-to-air intercoolers are only 50-65% efficient. That means for example, that with 11psi boost and its 120f air charge temperature increase, an intercooler reduces the air charge temperature only 60 degrees. Also, an intercooler will reduce boost 2 - 4 psi. on average.
3. Why not use a windshield washer pump?
Water/Methanol must be injected at above 50psi to properly atomize. Lower than 50psi causes greatly reduced air charge cooling as the result of larger droplets and their reduced total surface area.
4. Why methanol?
Methanol is a high octane fuel that is extremely resistant to detonation with an excellent cost/benefit ratio. ($1.50 - $2.00 per gallon.) Its high latent heat of vaporization also makes it an excellent air charge cooler which means a denser mixture and more horsepower. Because of these facts, it is a better anti-detonant than ethanol or iso-propanol although they will work in a pinch. It has however only about 60% of the energy content of gasoline by volume so about twice as much is used to make similar power if used as a straight fuel. It is extremely toxic and should be handled with rubber gloves in well ventilated areas only. Care should be taken to avoid skin contact.
5. How much Water/Methanol?
To prevent detonation, the ratio of Water/Methanol to gasoline is roughly 1 to 5 in gasoline applications- 1 to 4 in diesel. In practice, you give it as much water / methanol as it takes to eliminate detonation without quenching combustion. The amount depends on the onset RPM of injection, the octane of the gasoline, fuel/air ratio, cylinder head type, even the weather conditions. Your engine is actually pretty tolerant of extra water vapor, you will know it's too much when the engine misses and loses power.
6. Where can I purchase Methanol?
Methanol can generally be purchased where racing fuels are sold. Also, most gas line dryers like "Heat" are simply Methanol. Suppliers of industrial chemicals can also supply Methanol usually at a higher price than fuel suppliers. If all else fails, most windshield washer fluids are up to 40% Methanol and 58% water. Methanol can be purchased on the web at www.worldwideracingfuels.com and hiperfuels.com.
7. How long will a tank (2 qts.) last?
In high boost/high horsepower application, a full blast 1/4 mile run will utilize as much as 1/8 tank. A larger tank should be considered if over 9psi boost is utilized in road racing where a tank can be used in as few as 6 - 2 mile/ full tilt laps. Under normal street use in a 400 HP Mustang, a tank usually lasts about 500 miles. Two reservoirs can be used for 1-gal total capacity if desired. Turbo diesels use more qty. and usually utilize the existing windshield washer reservoir (over 4 qts. in most cases) or the new 8-gal reservoir upgrade. More will always be used when the system is first installed, less when the novelty wears off.
8. Can I use windshield washer fluid?
Although most contain some glycol and detergent, most windshield washer fluids are up to 50% alcohol (methanol, ethanol, isopropanol) and make an excellent Boost Cooler. Try to find one that indicates "contains methanol".
9. At what boost level do I introduce Water/Methanol?
Centrifugal superchargers/large turbos: Generally, at 50% of peak boost the recommended quantity should be introduced. Positive displacement superchargers/ fast spooling turbos: injection should occur at or near peak boost to avoid combustion quench since peak boost occurs so fast.
10. What ratio of Water/Methanol is recommended?
A 50/50 ratio is recommended. This has been demonstrated to be the best for charge/air cooling, excellent detonation control, and controlling cylinder temperature. This includes diesel applications where water conditions the combustion of the methanol so combustion timing isn't affected.
11. Many recommend Denso Iridium spark plugs in boosted applications. Will these work also with water/methanol injection?
Denso Iridium spark plugs are highly recommended with the Boost Cooler. Iridiums, with their low firing thresholds and intense spark, allow for larger quantities to be injected sooner without misfiring. This allows for more cooling of the intake air. If you have a misfiring problem, nine times out of ten, Iridiums will clear it up.
12. Will water/methanol harm my engine?
In theory, at recommended quantities, most of the mixture is evaporated before it hits the combustion chamber. Also, injection only takes place at high boost levels minimizing cylinder wash concerns. Engines that have been torn down after two years of water/methanol usage have shown no wear issues only clean combustion chambers. In fact, water/methanol reduces the probability of engine destroying detonation. Think of it as an insurance policy against detonation.
13. Can the Boost Cooler be applied to naturally aspirated and nitrous engines?
* Naturally aspirated/high compression engines:
In this application, water/methanol injection allows the use of pump fuel in all but the most extreme situations which effects tremendous cost savings as well as horsepower increases due to air density increase and realized timing potential. The system is activated by a throttle switch so that injection takes place only during high engine loads when needed.
* NOS engines: With NOS, water/methanol injection allows the use of full timing even with large (250HP+) quantities. Injection is controlled by the same means that controls NOS injection.
* Naturally aspirated/stock compression: With naturally aspirated engines with less than 10:1 compression, water/methanol is used typically in warm climates to get the intake temps back to 60?f. Benefits include: 10-15 HP increases from air density increases and full timing, Increased gas mileage, and carbon free combustion chambers. Activation is by a throttle switch adjusted for onset engine load. With this application, the nozzle is sized so that no more than 10% of total fuel consumption at peak flywheel HP is injected.
<font color=blue>B) Trunk mounted Dry Ice Chiller</font color=blue>
Info can be lots of places, but this site has a great DIY.
Another thing I looked into was a trunk mounted cooler box. Air/Liquid intercoolers operate by pumping cooled water through the cores either from a front-mounted radiator ot heat exchanger or chilled water produced by circulating the liquid through a container filled with ice, as used in drag racing.
of course, there are better ways of doing this, but I thought I would get the opinions and discussions.
Depending on the engine size and heat load, Spearco recommends a container that will hold a minimum of 12 pounds of ice. If a front radiator is used, this should be as a large as possible since the temperature of the liquid entering the intercooler determines the cooling effectiveness. A radiator as used on small automobiles with a minimum surface area of at least 260 sq. inches. Radiator technology is perferable rather than oil cooler technology as these are specifically designed to cool water/glycol.
When these intercoolers are used with chilled water, it is possible, in some cases, to get charge temperatures below ambient temperature, therefore remarkable increases in air density and power are possible.
=======================
thoughts?
'03.5 Sedan 5a: BS/G, Prem, Aero/Body, Sport, Nav
Click for MODS or Vote at Online Showoff
Recently, a group of us drag raced at LACR out in Palmdale (2600' elev & 100 degrees). Heat and lack of oxygen is huge factor in posting up some numbers. So I have been looking at ways to help out my buddy Gurgen with his TTs. The idea is, get Gurgen excited and let him test it out before I do something [img]/w3timages/icons/tongue.gif[/img]
So, looking at ways to give him more air, while cooling his system I cam across a few diff methods.
<font color=blue>A) Water / Methanol Injection:</font color=blue> taken from http://snowperformance.net and echoed on many other like sites...
1. What are the benefits of Water/Methanol injection?
Boost Cooler Benefits (Gasoline):
* Low cost - where else can you get up to 60HP for $299.
* More power than other means of detonation control.
* Efficiency - leaner air fuel ratio can be utilized for normal operation.
* Greatly increases air charge densities for huge horsepower increases.
2. Do I need an Intercooler with Water/Methanol injection?
Up to approximately 20 psi boost, water/methanol injection will provide all the density increase/detonation control needed in most applications. Of course, Intercooling and water/methanol injection would provide even greater benefits especially beyond 20 psi boost. Most air-to-air intercoolers are only 50-65% efficient. That means for example, that with 11psi boost and its 120f air charge temperature increase, an intercooler reduces the air charge temperature only 60 degrees. Also, an intercooler will reduce boost 2 - 4 psi. on average.
3. Why not use a windshield washer pump?
Water/Methanol must be injected at above 50psi to properly atomize. Lower than 50psi causes greatly reduced air charge cooling as the result of larger droplets and their reduced total surface area.
4. Why methanol?
Methanol is a high octane fuel that is extremely resistant to detonation with an excellent cost/benefit ratio. ($1.50 - $2.00 per gallon.) Its high latent heat of vaporization also makes it an excellent air charge cooler which means a denser mixture and more horsepower. Because of these facts, it is a better anti-detonant than ethanol or iso-propanol although they will work in a pinch. It has however only about 60% of the energy content of gasoline by volume so about twice as much is used to make similar power if used as a straight fuel. It is extremely toxic and should be handled with rubber gloves in well ventilated areas only. Care should be taken to avoid skin contact.
5. How much Water/Methanol?
To prevent detonation, the ratio of Water/Methanol to gasoline is roughly 1 to 5 in gasoline applications- 1 to 4 in diesel. In practice, you give it as much water / methanol as it takes to eliminate detonation without quenching combustion. The amount depends on the onset RPM of injection, the octane of the gasoline, fuel/air ratio, cylinder head type, even the weather conditions. Your engine is actually pretty tolerant of extra water vapor, you will know it's too much when the engine misses and loses power.
6. Where can I purchase Methanol?
Methanol can generally be purchased where racing fuels are sold. Also, most gas line dryers like "Heat" are simply Methanol. Suppliers of industrial chemicals can also supply Methanol usually at a higher price than fuel suppliers. If all else fails, most windshield washer fluids are up to 40% Methanol and 58% water. Methanol can be purchased on the web at www.worldwideracingfuels.com and hiperfuels.com.
7. How long will a tank (2 qts.) last?
In high boost/high horsepower application, a full blast 1/4 mile run will utilize as much as 1/8 tank. A larger tank should be considered if over 9psi boost is utilized in road racing where a tank can be used in as few as 6 - 2 mile/ full tilt laps. Under normal street use in a 400 HP Mustang, a tank usually lasts about 500 miles. Two reservoirs can be used for 1-gal total capacity if desired. Turbo diesels use more qty. and usually utilize the existing windshield washer reservoir (over 4 qts. in most cases) or the new 8-gal reservoir upgrade. More will always be used when the system is first installed, less when the novelty wears off.
8. Can I use windshield washer fluid?
Although most contain some glycol and detergent, most windshield washer fluids are up to 50% alcohol (methanol, ethanol, isopropanol) and make an excellent Boost Cooler. Try to find one that indicates "contains methanol".
9. At what boost level do I introduce Water/Methanol?
Centrifugal superchargers/large turbos: Generally, at 50% of peak boost the recommended quantity should be introduced. Positive displacement superchargers/ fast spooling turbos: injection should occur at or near peak boost to avoid combustion quench since peak boost occurs so fast.
10. What ratio of Water/Methanol is recommended?
A 50/50 ratio is recommended. This has been demonstrated to be the best for charge/air cooling, excellent detonation control, and controlling cylinder temperature. This includes diesel applications where water conditions the combustion of the methanol so combustion timing isn't affected.
11. Many recommend Denso Iridium spark plugs in boosted applications. Will these work also with water/methanol injection?
Denso Iridium spark plugs are highly recommended with the Boost Cooler. Iridiums, with their low firing thresholds and intense spark, allow for larger quantities to be injected sooner without misfiring. This allows for more cooling of the intake air. If you have a misfiring problem, nine times out of ten, Iridiums will clear it up.
12. Will water/methanol harm my engine?
In theory, at recommended quantities, most of the mixture is evaporated before it hits the combustion chamber. Also, injection only takes place at high boost levels minimizing cylinder wash concerns. Engines that have been torn down after two years of water/methanol usage have shown no wear issues only clean combustion chambers. In fact, water/methanol reduces the probability of engine destroying detonation. Think of it as an insurance policy against detonation.
13. Can the Boost Cooler be applied to naturally aspirated and nitrous engines?
* Naturally aspirated/high compression engines:
In this application, water/methanol injection allows the use of pump fuel in all but the most extreme situations which effects tremendous cost savings as well as horsepower increases due to air density increase and realized timing potential. The system is activated by a throttle switch so that injection takes place only during high engine loads when needed.
* NOS engines: With NOS, water/methanol injection allows the use of full timing even with large (250HP+) quantities. Injection is controlled by the same means that controls NOS injection.
* Naturally aspirated/stock compression: With naturally aspirated engines with less than 10:1 compression, water/methanol is used typically in warm climates to get the intake temps back to 60?f. Benefits include: 10-15 HP increases from air density increases and full timing, Increased gas mileage, and carbon free combustion chambers. Activation is by a throttle switch adjusted for onset engine load. With this application, the nozzle is sized so that no more than 10% of total fuel consumption at peak flywheel HP is injected.
<font color=blue>B) Trunk mounted Dry Ice Chiller</font color=blue>
Info can be lots of places, but this site has a great DIY.
Another thing I looked into was a trunk mounted cooler box. Air/Liquid intercoolers operate by pumping cooled water through the cores either from a front-mounted radiator ot heat exchanger or chilled water produced by circulating the liquid through a container filled with ice, as used in drag racing.
of course, there are better ways of doing this, but I thought I would get the opinions and discussions.
Depending on the engine size and heat load, Spearco recommends a container that will hold a minimum of 12 pounds of ice. If a front radiator is used, this should be as a large as possible since the temperature of the liquid entering the intercooler determines the cooling effectiveness. A radiator as used on small automobiles with a minimum surface area of at least 260 sq. inches. Radiator technology is perferable rather than oil cooler technology as these are specifically designed to cool water/glycol.
When these intercoolers are used with chilled water, it is possible, in some cases, to get charge temperatures below ambient temperature, therefore remarkable increases in air density and power are possible.
=======================
thoughts?
'03.5 Sedan 5a: BS/G, Prem, Aero/Body, Sport, Nav
Click for MODS or Vote at Online Showoff
Registered User
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 760
Likes: 1
Re: Water/Methanol Injection
EXCELLENT POST! I learned several things and I already have a methanol injection kit installed (as shown)! The lid for the bottle is right next to the trunk release, so I can easily refill it.
--Steve
312792-methkit.jpg
--Steve
312792-methkit.jpg
Registered User
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 142
Likes: 0
Re: Water/Methanol Injection
I've been useing Water injection on SC'd V8s for many years and it can be made to work like a champ. The best possible WI system out there is offered by Aquamist IMO, but less expensive variants can be made to work quite well also , they just don't have the safety features and fine tuneablity offered by the Aquamist 3d systems. What I have found is that a properly matched system can yield between 2 - 4 equivalent octane points. Depends on the actual engine and amount of methonal used . Basically , I've been able to make crappy 91 octane perform like 93 with just water. Methonal is required to prevent freezng in cold climates. Also I've always just used the windsheild washer tank which provides adequate capacity an a low level warning built in already. It is perectly safe to clean your windsheild with a 50/50 water/methanol mix.
Re: Water/Methanol Injection
Ted...haha i know it - I am being used again....Don't oyu guys feel sorry for me already!
Thanks a lot for the info....
Steve.... how are you using this? So does this essentially have the same effect as using high octane fuel?
G
<P ID="edit"><FONT class="small"><EM>Edited by gurgenpb on 07/30/04 12:06 AM.</EM></FONT></P>
Thanks a lot for the info....
Steve.... how are you using this? So does this essentially have the same effect as using high octane fuel?
G
<P ID="edit"><FONT class="small"><EM>Edited by gurgenpb on 07/30/04 12:06 AM.</EM></FONT></P>
Registered User
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 760
Likes: 1
Re: Water/Methanol Injection
I'm using the Methanol kit as much for future potential as anything (i.e. with a built engine). However it does provide two immediate benefits: it helps cool the intake charge and it increases octane.
--Steve
--Steve
Re: Water/Methanol Injection
I have a SCer .Will retuning with the addition of this mod be needed after wards ? Or will the the increase of [octane] so to speak , keep your A/F in a good operating range ? And where do you place the injector for this mod ? thanks...Bill
Couldnt afford it when young...gonna play when Im old
Couldnt afford it when young...gonna play when Im old
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 142
Likes: 0
Re: Water/Methanol Injection
Just to be clear , WI doesn''t explicitly increase octane, but the closest analogy to the results it offers is and "effective" increase in octane. The typical benefit is the ability to raise boost levels since the octane has been effectivly raised. Also the chambers stay much cleaner and the peak EGT is greatly lowered.
I also note that one kit shown in this thread offers a "MAF" scaled version, This is less than ideal since on the VQ35 TT and SC setups, since as the boost is raised the MAF saturates at ~5V, In this case the water delivery rate will not track boost "optimally". So you would need to dump more water than necessary and hence suck the water tank dry faster.
The slickest method I've found for both SCs and TT is from Aquamist and coudl be called an "Injector follower" method. Basically above a preset boost threshold the water delivery rate can easily be made to track fuel injector duty cycle. If the Fuel system is properly designed, the injectors should never "flat-line". Unfortunately the fuel sytem upgrades provided in the AT and Vortech base kits do not prevent injcetor "flatline". So a less sophisticated method must be deployed. The Aquamist link is:
http://www.aquamist.co.uk/cp/cp.html
Note the system discussed is the "2d" setup.
The benefits are numerouse , least of whcih is that it can detect a plugged nozzel. No other system can do that.
I also note that one kit shown in this thread offers a "MAF" scaled version, This is less than ideal since on the VQ35 TT and SC setups, since as the boost is raised the MAF saturates at ~5V, In this case the water delivery rate will not track boost "optimally". So you would need to dump more water than necessary and hence suck the water tank dry faster.
The slickest method I've found for both SCs and TT is from Aquamist and coudl be called an "Injector follower" method. Basically above a preset boost threshold the water delivery rate can easily be made to track fuel injector duty cycle. If the Fuel system is properly designed, the injectors should never "flat-line". Unfortunately the fuel sytem upgrades provided in the AT and Vortech base kits do not prevent injcetor "flatline". So a less sophisticated method must be deployed. The Aquamist link is:
http://www.aquamist.co.uk/cp/cp.html
Note the system discussed is the "2d" setup.
The benefits are numerouse , least of whcih is that it can detect a plugged nozzel. No other system can do that.
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Joined: Apr 2003
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From: Kalifornia
Re: Water/Methanol Injection
the added benefits for Gurgen would be that when the water turns to mist, there is an additional volume of oxygen avail to him...very useful at high altitudes.
The water/cooling effect allows you to take advantage of your full timing without it being retarted to avoid detonation.
-T
'03.5 Sedan 5a: BS/G, Prem, Aero/Body, Sport, Nav
Click for MODS or Vote at Online Showoff
The water/cooling effect allows you to take advantage of your full timing without it being retarted to avoid detonation.
-T
'03.5 Sedan 5a: BS/G, Prem, Aero/Body, Sport, Nav
Click for MODS or Vote at Online Showoff
Re: Water/Methanol Injection
so is the injector installed before the throttle body? kind of like a zex wet kit?
Blk G35c AT Stillen SC Volk LE37's Tein susp.
"throw it in the gutter and go buy another"
Blk G35c AT Stillen SC Volk LE37's Tein susp.
"throw it in the gutter and go buy another"
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Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 378
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From: Tennessee
Re: Water/Methanol Injection
I'm thinking about what the inside of my iron looks like... Mustn't you use de-mineralized water for this application? The very thought of lime deposits inside my engine gives me a shiver...
'03 G35s 5AT, Garnet Fire/Willow
Staggered 18" SSR GT1/Bridgestone PP S03
Eibach Springs/Sways, Stillen 2-pc BBK
Stillen Intake & SS Cat-Back Dual Exhaust
'03 G35s 5AT, Garnet Fire/Willow
Staggered 18" SSR GT1/Bridgestone PP S03
Eibach Springs/Sways, Stillen 2-pc BBK
Stillen Intake & SS Cat-Back Dual Exhaust
Registered User
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 378
Likes: 0
From: Tennessee
Re: Water/Methanol Injection
Someone stated earlier that 50 psi is needed to properly atomize water, but the Aquamist 2d is adjustable to peak at only 30 psi. I assume 30 psi is OK...
'03 G35s 5AT, Garnet Fire/Willow
Staggered 18" SSR GT1/Bridgestone PP S03
Eibach Springs/Sways, Stillen 2-pc BBK
Stillen Intake & SS Cat-Back Dual Exhaust
'03 G35s 5AT, Garnet Fire/Willow
Staggered 18" SSR GT1/Bridgestone PP S03
Eibach Springs/Sways, Stillen 2-pc BBK
Stillen Intake & SS Cat-Back Dual Exhaust
Registered User
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 378
Likes: 0
From: Tennessee
Re: Water/Methanol Injection
This is a really interesting topic, here.
So, if I purchased the Stillen Stage I SC (the one w/o the intercooler), and used it with WI, I would get the same or more HP output as the Stage II unit w/ the intercooler? And I would not need to use one heat-range colder plugs? And the Stillen controller would be totally fooled by the strange, new parameters created by water/methanol injection, and neither inject fuel nor pull timing properly...?
What do you think?
'03 G35s 5AT, Garnet Fire/Willow
Staggered 18" SSR GT1/Bridgestone PP S03
Eibach Springs/Sways, Stillen 2-pc BBK
Stillen Intake & SS Cat-Back Dual Exhaust
So, if I purchased the Stillen Stage I SC (the one w/o the intercooler), and used it with WI, I would get the same or more HP output as the Stage II unit w/ the intercooler? And I would not need to use one heat-range colder plugs? And the Stillen controller would be totally fooled by the strange, new parameters created by water/methanol injection, and neither inject fuel nor pull timing properly...?
What do you think?
'03 G35s 5AT, Garnet Fire/Willow
Staggered 18" SSR GT1/Bridgestone PP S03
Eibach Springs/Sways, Stillen 2-pc BBK
Stillen Intake & SS Cat-Back Dual Exhaust
Registered User
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 233
Likes: 0
From: Texas
Re: Water/Methanol Injection
Cooler cylinder temps are also a result, aren't they... ...and as a direct result of the mist, not just a secondary result of the colder intake charge?
I was really looking at an Aquamist system back when I had my '97 Mitsu. GSX. They seem to be a huge hit in Australia... ...which is like the climate around here 8 months out of the year. lol
'05 IP(or ?) 6MT... ...Never too soon to think about modifications!!
I was really looking at an Aquamist system back when I had my '97 Mitsu. GSX. They seem to be a huge hit in Australia... ...which is like the climate around here 8 months out of the year. lol
'05 IP(or ?) 6MT... ...Never too soon to think about modifications!!
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Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 236
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From: Ontario
Re: Water/Methanol Injection
I didn't even know that this was possible before. Great post!
In a similar vein, what if you just want to spray the intercooler? Is there a kit out there similar to what comes on an STI?
2003 CB Coupe 5AT
ATI Procharger
Stillen Cat Back Exhaust
Eibachs
Gord G Grounding Kit
In a similar vein, what if you just want to spray the intercooler? Is there a kit out there similar to what comes on an STI?
2003 CB Coupe 5AT
ATI Procharger
Stillen Cat Back Exhaust
Eibachs
Gord G Grounding Kit