You dont have to drive a car hard to have detonation. Like in Sharif's case he was getting on the throttle and put alot of load on the engine that might have caused pre-ignition in the cylinder. Load/throttle/rpm are not all directly locked into each other. You can have 100% load on a motor at 75% throttle at 1900rpm in 5th gear, know what i mean? I dont know if thats what really happend but ive seen situations like that where it has.

You could spin a main bearings or bend a valve or whatever the list is endless but you have more control over some of those things then others.

Like i said before, getting a good tune is the cheapest thing you can do next to the alternatives. You car will run better and be safer. If you going to go cheap then why are you in the FI section? Go get something that was turbo from the factory.

 

My biggest problem is your 'pros' are using the sense of 'sound' to determine what is detonation and not. I say if you can hear something... you already past the safe limits. Is there any preventative measure of logging the G35 guys are doing to look and actually see what the knock counts are and such?

If you look at all the fan forums for supras/3000gt/dsm, any turbocharged car from the factory, they all use some form of datalogger to read any knock values that are beyond normal... they don't rely on sense of sound.

What boost was Sharif using when he blew his motor? Race gas is nice and all... but I just want to look for some 'concrete evidence' that someone has blown there motor with a stock Greddy turbo kit utilizing the stock basemap provided using 91+ octane(i guess you could include race gas... but most people that are using race gas, at a dyno or track, will usually be tweaking their boost). I guess I'm trying to filter through all the hype / word of mouth and trying to get you guys some solid information to go on. I'm not saying the stock basemap blowing a motor CAN'T/WON'T happen... I just really want to dilute the fear factor, and separate fact from word-of-mouth.

Coming from the 3000gt platform... we were really held back from lack of platform support from aftermarket companies and really had to fight to get out of the 'if i boost past 15-16psi, I'll blow my engine or tranny' mindset (which was set by the stock injectors). You really notice how the bandwagon sort of just re-iterates some myths and it just becomes accepted as fact without anything to back it up. I'm sure you guys have all heard how 3000gts are fat pigs right, with exploding trannies and have no top end?

I'm just saying... don't accept information unless they can justify it. IF an engine blows... I can guarantee it's from shabby tuning. But if there is solid, credible evidence that can say that GReddy's provided basemap has blown a stock motor... then GReddy NEEDS to know this and correct it.

Nothin' but luv for you guys(not LOVE-love, so don't get me wrong. )...

 

I couldn't agree more... but I'm also trying to find out exactly how 'safe' the Greddy basemap is. Is there any solid proof that some of these guys blowing motors with the GReddy bolt on kit, are using the stock boost AND have the thing properly installed?

 

All you have to do is use the search button. my350z.com will have plenty of posts on the subject too.

 

ditto, lots of guys, stock boost, blown up engines - know why? probably the emanage blue not offering target A/F and the nissan ECU adjusting itself to try to better meet emissions and better MPG

also the lack of fuel return kit

many people don't get enough gauges

some people get boost spikes or higher boost in the winter with cooler air

some people don't get the car tuned and just use the base map

oil starvation and/or oil heating up, not checking oil levels often enough

lack of quality gas


all sorts of reasons, but MANY people have blown up on the stock greddy TT. You gotta make the kit "complete" by buying all the other extra stuff needed to make it safe.

 

ok...so your willing to pay 4-5 grand for a turbo set up.........u have an equallly valuable motor, and your gonna be paying for installation ect.........but your not thinking about paying prabally no more than 400 to get the car properly tuned? ....maybe you should have done some research or something before making that kind of investment.....before i built my 11 second Turboed cars...i did well over a half a year of research just to make sure everything was going to fall into place when I did build the cars. Im from the same metroplex as you are and there are many shops that can answer your questions and many guys like myself who have put up the time and the investment of building well tuned daily driven turboed cars that are willing to help you out and give suggestions. I would HIGHLY suggest and reccomned you get the car properly tuned. U can PM me for any advice on where to get your car tuned here in the Metroplex. Luckily the expert who tuned my car is here in the metroplex, one of the few in the US who is certified to tune even the most complicated of stand alone sysetems, Motech, DFI, FAST...ect hes done it, from Turboed Ferrari's here in the DFW area to 1000+ hp supras, hes done it all and EXTREMLY reliable...if your interested i can give you his name and #...

 

you need at least $10k to do any sort of proper TT setup with a return kit, APS oil pan, gauges, tuning, a good piggyback etc. Even a stock APS TT you can expect $2000 in labor and then gauges etc will cost some $ too

assuming you have a good tire setup right now

 

Well first off... I'm just trying to get information about this Greddy Kit.

I have been to the my350z forums... and everyone beats around the bush. I haven't seen any concrete information about the stock basemap blowing the motor. I see they keep a list of 'blown motors'... but they don't keep track of exactly which boost they were running.

I did NOT say that tuning wasn't required... I am all about tuning. I wanted to know if the GReddy stock basemap has been PROVEN to blow a stock motor... given everything was properly installed and no additional boost control was added.

ditto, lots of guys, stock boost, blown up engines - know why? probably the emanage blue not offering target A/F and the nissan ECU adjusting itself to try to better meet emissions and better MPG

also the lack of fuel return kit
many people don't get enough gauges
some people get boost spikes or higher boost in the winter with cooler air
some people don't get the car tuned and just use the base map
oil starvation and/or oil heating up, not checking oil levels often enough
lack of quality gas

You do understand that your entire list would also include 'tuned' maps as well? If what you are saying is true... then the relatively 'safe' map that GReddy provided with the kit is no more dangerous than a 'tuned' map that has areas leaned out to provide more power. If what you say about target A/F is true... then you will have no better luck with a 'tuned' map... same goes for boost spikes... or anything else on your list.

Is everyone just accepting the fact that the stock engine VQ needs to be completely reworked be tuned for FI?

I guess I have officially put myself in the devil's advocate position. I want to know WHY the motors are blowing... and I don't want to accept gray area. I probably won't find out, because it seems not many people care to know. All they want to know is that it happens... and they just accept it.

I know I'm coming across harsh... but it's because no one has given me a clear answer. Simple question: Is there any proof that a properly-installed stock greddy basemap(STRICTLY bolt-on kit(with or without IC), no boost control additions) has destroyed a completely stock G35 or 350Z motor?

And yes... I 100% do believe in tuning... so please don't take me as someone that just likes to slap things together and run them. I just have a really hard time accepting rumor mills that aren't supported by concrete facts.

If stock timing is the problem(which 'is' possible, don't say I discredited the possibility)... is it because the stock ECU/stock injectors are mapped to a particular load... and the emanage adjustments/440cc injectors are forcing the stock ECU to read another low-load ign map which has higher timing?

Is it because the basemap is too lean in a certain area? Greddy would NEED to know about this to correct it for their kits.

Or is this information simply not available... and everyone is just accepting word-of-mouth as facts.

 

And if everyone is just fed up, and thinks I'm being too skeptical... just say the word... and I'll drop the subject altogether. Sorry for wasting bandwidth and your time.

 

Im not sure exactly how the emanage works since im not running one.

We only some concrete cases b/c your right most people dont care, they just say it blew, throw $10k at the motor and be done with it. But out of educated assumptions and the few cases that people know for sure....The greddy base map isnt completely safe for everyone.

The stock ECU doesnt have the datalogging abilities that you are looking for either so knock at inaudible levels is hard to track. You would need something like the HKS knock/amp to log this but i only know of 3 people running one including me.

The only reason i can see for not getting the ignition harness and getting the emanage tuned it just a total lack of funds, which there isnt anything wrong with that, you just have to pay attention to the car more and be careful. Otherwise why risk it?

If you are getting the greddy kit b/c it had room to grow but want something that is safe out of the box then get the APS TT. It can support similar power levels with similar upgrades, but the APS kit is safer out of the box.

 

E-manage 'does' offer some form of knock sensor 'adapter'... but I'm not sure if it's just some universal-type wire you route into the stock harness... and even wth that in place I'm not 100% sure about the logging capabilities of the e-manage.

I do fully intend on 'convincing' my partner-in-crime to get a ignition harness(along with the knock sensor adapter) and I will probably strap it onto a dyno after I get a relatively safe basemap set-up for the streets. I'll try to keep you guys posted if I see anything 'out of the ordinary' concerning the GReddy basemap.

I wanted a detailed reason as to why some of the g35/350z kept blowing their motors... and since a lot of people were standing firm behind the belief that the stock GReddy basemap was dangerous on a stock motor... I wanted to find out some solid information. And yes... I did search... but nothing conclusive, and most of these guys like to tune 8+ psi without any form of logging(just because 'everyone else' can get away with it, scary stuff).

If the GReddy basemap DID blow up a stock motor... again... I would have wanted to see what the people's readouts were for knock counts or A/F. Again, impossible to find... scary stuff. The answer I wanted was an explanation on why the motor failed (and more specifically a greddy kit on a very stock motor running wastegate pressure): if there was any logging or ANYTHING going on... it seems most people that FI don't care about this.. but this is CRITICAL stuff.

If you guys were offered an AEM EMS... it would've made my life a lot easier. But it seems they are still working on the G35/350z ones... it will be available soon. :thumbup:


**edit**

... and thanks for putting up with me, meatbag.

 

sorry, I thought this basically explained why the greddy kit has been blowing up motors

who cares about the basemap if you're getting the car tuned. The thing is most people that had the greddy kit did have it tuned. Some of them upped the boost, but people have popped motors left and right.

My opinion is that the majority of the blown engines is specifically because of the oil pan issue. The turbos use your engine oil to cool themselves which means the oil can heat up pretty quick if you're getting on boost a lot. Then if you start taking some pretty hard corners, since the stock oil pan does not have internal baffles, the oil all slides to one side of the engine and the oil pickup can't pick up the oil - this keeps happening over time and something is going to break. While this is happening you might be looking at your oil temp gauge and the oil temps might even look good, but that's because the oil temp IS good, but the oil isn't staying distributed evenly across the pistons/rods etc


fuel return kit is an issue too - as you get higher into boost at higher rpms, the A/F might start leaning out - but that's more of a 400+whp issue

then the Nissan ECU. Did you know that the nissan ECU is one of the world's most advanced ECU's? I'm not kidding. It's 10 years ahead of it's time compared to everyone else's right now. It's very smart and one of it's jobs is to get good gas mileage and good emissions. It's also really complicated which is why not many people are doing flashes for it - and even then they can only do so much because the programming is a bear compared to other ECU's.

When you're going WOT a lot, it'll give you plenty of gas and some aggressive timing. But when you stop going WOT for a while, it'll start trying to pull back fuel and timing and eventually switch to it's 2nd map - there's 3 maps, agressive, normal with good mpg, and safe mode. When it figures you're taking it easy and wants to start getting better mpg and emissions it'll slowly scale timing and fuel down until it reaches an equalibrium with the O2 sensors for detecting emissions. It has no idea there's a turbo hooked up to the car. If it can't reach that equalibrium, the car might throw a multimisfire code or possibly go into safe mode - and it has several situations where it'll go into safe mode. Multi misfire codes happen usually not because the car is REALLY misfiring, but because it's firing in a way outside of it's normal stock NA parameters - changing cams brings the code up a lot.

The emanage blue is a simple simple simple piggyback. It merely adjusts +/- a/f and timing. It has some other options that most don't quite work for the Z. You might get the emanage to tune the car perfect, but the truth is, the ECU is really controlling everything at the root of everything. When you dyno tune, you go WOT several times. The ECU switches to aggressive mode and that's what the emanage is tuned to. As soon as the ECU switches to it's 2nd normal map, your emanage tune is all off, however you usually aren't going WOT so you never notice that your A/F is slightly leaner.

This is why the emanage ultimate, UTEC, F-con, and the new AEM EMS when it comes out are so sought after. They give you the ability to force what A/F and timing you want (emanage ultimate not quite offering target timing at this point though, but soon)

Companies like APS have solved most of these issues. The unichip however doesn't offer target A/F or target timing, but the basemaps are set so rich for the given octane that it really is usually a pretty safe tune. It's also a smarter piggyback than the emanage blue - has more features, uses more sensor information I think etc.


If you do a bunch of WOT runs and get the engine all hot, then start taking it easy thru some corners - even fast 90 degree corners on the street- the ECU will pull fuel because of the map change, and the oil will slosh to one side getting starvation.


most people don't datalog right when their engine blew up. It seems to happen a lot when they're not even in boost

 

I care because I want to separate fact from fiction. If people have popped their motors because of improper tuning and not enough logging. That's their own damn fault and shouldn't try to spread stories. It's just one of my many pet peeves. All it's going to do is hurt the community.

I'm sorry... but if this is a problem you are having... then you are admitting that Nissan did some pretty crappy engineering. This is going to be a problem whether you have turbos or not. If this was the case... wouldn't you be blowing your STOCK NA motor? I highly doubt your oil sump would be a position to suffer something like this. In addition, the TD05H-18G turbo's efficiency range is FAR beyond what you guys are getting out of the stock setup, even at 8-10psi... so to say that the turbos are heating up your engine oil to ungodly temps seems a bit of a stretch.

I guess I'm not really understanding where you are going with this. Are you saying the NA motor fuel system doesn't have a fuel return line? Or stating that it might not be big enough?

PLEASE don't say you expect me to believe this.

There's a reason why certain ECU's are programmable and not. EEPROM vs ROM, simply put... some allow the ability to erase and replace data... while others are not. Good gas mileage and good emissions amount is a result of A/F and ignition map. Your STOCK ECU has a target a/f map... i can guarantee that, I mean... if you are saying it's 10 years ahead of it's time... I would hope they wouldn't drop something as simple as this.

NOW we are getting somewhere... do you realize that the vr-4's stock ECU (ancient by your standards) map also has this feature? This actually causes a problem when you try to get too large of an injector(700cc+) and decide to stick with a piggyback. There are three ignition maps that are involved: if you go with a piggyback and slap on injectors that require too much correction. At a certain point, the way that piggybacks alters the signal to the ecu... makes the ecu believe that the load is below a percentage of the 'actual' load... which triggers another ignition map 'range' (which will be more aggressive of course). Big no no.

Again... mpg/emissions = a/f + timing... Don't make it sound like it's some unfathomable thing that humans wouldn't understand. It sounded to me like you were just explaining the target a/f target ign functionality of the stock ECU. Is the true culprit of the detonation when the stock ECU changes to a lower load/higher timing value... and doesn't react fast enough with the knock retard?
I'm not sure what the cam talk was about... but I'll assume you were referring to when you get a slightly more aggressive grind just for informational purposes.

YES! Define PRETTY SAFE TUNE! What I want to know is: Will the BOLT-ON GReddy turbo kit with the stock provided basemap, UTILIZING wastegate pressure(no boost controllers please), destroy a stock G35/350Z motor. You would think GReddy did their research and covered all their bases when they released a 'bolt-on' turbo kit with a preconfigured basemap... Where are the stories about this thing blowing up motors?
Can you PLEASE link me to this... that is all I want. Like I said in a previous post: I don't like rumor mills... they one of the many evils that eat away at progress and understanding.

You don't have to be in boost. The turbo is not evil. When a motor blows... and someone doesn't know what caused it... I call that 'crap tune'. Is the greddy stock basemap responsible for a blown motor given everything was installed properly and the person used the provided wastegate boost(didn't try to get more out of it)? Remember this was my only question... and yet I don't have a solid answer.


I'm trying to keep this topic focused... so we can weed out all the mis-information. I'm not a know-it-all... and I'm not going to pretend like I am... so if I said anything that didn't sound right, feel free to jump in.

Again, my original question was: Is there concrete evidence that the stock GReddy basemap has blown a stock G35 engine, given that the kit was properly installed and the owner/tuner didn't try to bump up the boost?

And for any GReddy owners out there that don't wanna jump in to the discussion and just feel like giving me their .02... you can PM me to let me know that your G35 is running fine with the stock basemap... or that the stock basemap blew your motor to bits... I won't ask questions.

 

I agree I haven't heard of anyone blowing there motors. "without upping the boost levels". Im running on factory internals and just bolting it on with a complete kit. Will I be safe is the question. And trust me money isn't the issue.If greddy states that you don't need that stuff then you don't. They have a good name. So how is that possible that they are still able to sell this kit if all that is said is true.

 

well you hvae a point except for one big difference, the NA car doesn't have a turbo. The turbos use the oil and heat it up, and the turbos heat up the engine bay creating more heat than normal so the oil becomes MUCH more important. You'd be suprised how much more heat it makes. It puts the engine oil on a stricter threshold to needing to work right

Nissan tested the Z and the engine and determined that any oil starvation it might have wasn't enough to hurt the engine in stock form. The rods are actually forged, but they're just very thin and lightweight for the sake of saving weight and reving faster. Then there's the engine being opendeck and it just wasn't designed with FI in mind otherwise I'm more than sure Nissan would have put some more engineering into keeping the oil from starving the engine during cornering.

you don't know that the car does not have a return line? No it doesn FYI


target A/F? yeah if the ECU is controlling it. You as a user have no control over the A/F that the stock ECU does. Even a reflash doesn't solve this. The maps still adjust timing and A/F to maximize MPG and emissions when not going WOT. Why don't you write technosquare or AAM? I've had my car flashed, technosquare told me themselves that's how it works - specificlaly the maps are there to deal with different octane fuel, but if your'e not going WOT it will.

It's not like that's some sort of feature the user has - it's just a map. It's not like the user can override it. It can make adjustments, but you CANNOT tell the ECU to give you specifically a certain A/F and STICK with it. It'll change and adjust as the ECU sees fit. If you reprogram the ECU, what you're changing are the base maps, not the ability for the ECU to adjust them. Technosquare says they can't stop the ECU from making adjustments. Even if you have the "normal" map set exactly the same as the agressive map (only AAM does this I think) the ECU will STILL make adjustments

let me introduce you to a thread:
http://www.my350z.com/forum/showthre...ight=ECU+works



I do believe the APS tune is safer than the base greddy tune if that's what you're asking. The Greddy TT kit was the 1st FI kit on the market. It was out shortly after the Z was out. IMO they rushed to the market and skimped a few things just to be the first one. We all know how shady Greddy is with fixing bugs and updating things.

as far as stories about the greddy blowing up motors? I dunno, I'm not going to hold your hand - consider me nice enough to even bother responding to you in the first place and reporting on what I've learned over 2 years on the forums - it's not like I'm buying a greddy TT or anything


the APS TT kit blew up 3 motors during the last 2 weeks, guess the APS kits have crap tunes then by that logic. Crap happens. APS has had 4 publicly reported blown up TT kits that I know of in the last year and a half. I can't even recall how many Greddy kits have blown up. Back when the Z was brand new, people were not going boost crazy. Most were using stock boost levels and still blowing up. Meanwhile there's been guys running 550rwhp on the APS TT kit with no problems - until he misshifted and that did the engine in

The Greddy has dramatically less safety precautions put into it compared to the APS kit. You gotta solve those issues yourself. If you wanna get the greddy and go for it, do it dude. With the stock greddy kit I'd actually say there's a 50/50 chance you'll blow the engine in the next 2-3 years even on a proper tune - maybe that's just me spreading rumors, but you maybe haven't been around when every other week another guy posted a thread about their blown up engine with the greddy kit. It wasn't until people started buying other kits or making the greddy kit safer that the kit started not blowing up as much.



Is there concrete evidence that the base greddy kit with base tune will blow up the engine? If you looked long enough you'll find it, but wouldn't you agree that there certainly is at least enough evidence of people having problems that the greddy TT kit is one of the more risky kits compared to some of the others?

It's your engine, don't let me stop you from getting the greddy, but just know the issues that people think are the cause of it killing so many engines