Alignment data
#16
06-09-2009, 03:32 PM
For example: I have a Toyota Tundra. It was determined by the members on the tundrasolutions.com board that the caster settings on the front should be maxed out for best highway stability of the truck. This is because the range of adjustment provided by the Toyota engineers was very narrow on the lower side. (The G settings are even more generous in this area, so you can imagine that a pickup truck could use a bit more caster range!)
So, if you decided, for example to just ask the alignment shop to set the caster to the middle of the range provided by the alignment machine computer, you really didn't the get alignment that was best driving on the highway. The same truck also had a tendency to shudder a bit if the total toe was off very much.
So, if you decided, for example to just ask the alignment shop to set the caster to the middle of the range provided by the alignment machine computer, you really didn't the get alignment that was best driving on the highway. The same truck also had a tendency to shudder a bit if the total toe was off very much.
These are all very useful things to know going in the first time. I also learned from the same board that the best alignment machine is a Hunter machine. Now I know which shops in town have a Hunter and who knows how to use it correctly. Makes a world if difference in day to day driving!
#17
06-09-2009, 04:38 PM
hey, thanks for replying!
i know a lot of guys focus on camber because it can really have a stong effect on cornering. an on toe because it's easy for the shop to adjust the tie rod ends.
but, i've read a few posts from owners saying their car felt squirrely or unstable under different highway conditions. being a noob, i'm not sure what caster adjustments are possible on our cars, but the alignment sheet below seems to show that some adjustment is possible. (it is for a g35 w/ 4was, i couldn't find one without)
caster is essentially an adjustment for straightline steering stability. it uses the weight of the front of the car to force the front wheels into a straight ahead position. more caster equals slightly more force needed to turn the steering wheel but more tendency for the vehicles front wheels to return to center.
caster can be tricky to set up correctly and some shops who don't know how to do it will try to convince you to leave it alone. they "set the toe and let it go" essentially stealing from you by not doing a complete alignment. or they try to achieve the same thing by dialing in more toe which wears tires more quickly. i do know the hunter machines contain complex software that helps a tech adjust caster (and resulting change in camber) more easily if they are trained and know how to use it. i don't know about other types of machines.
anyway, i do feel that getting the most out your car means trying to use all the adjustments available to tune it to your driving style. hopefully we can get a good thread on alignment options going here.
amp
i know a lot of guys focus on camber because it can really have a stong effect on cornering. an on toe because it's easy for the shop to adjust the tie rod ends.
but, i've read a few posts from owners saying their car felt squirrely or unstable under different highway conditions. being a noob, i'm not sure what caster adjustments are possible on our cars, but the alignment sheet below seems to show that some adjustment is possible. (it is for a g35 w/ 4was, i couldn't find one without)
caster is essentially an adjustment for straightline steering stability. it uses the weight of the front of the car to force the front wheels into a straight ahead position. more caster equals slightly more force needed to turn the steering wheel but more tendency for the vehicles front wheels to return to center.
caster can be tricky to set up correctly and some shops who don't know how to do it will try to convince you to leave it alone. they "set the toe and let it go" essentially stealing from you by not doing a complete alignment. or they try to achieve the same thing by dialing in more toe which wears tires more quickly. i do know the hunter machines contain complex software that helps a tech adjust caster (and resulting change in camber) more easily if they are trained and know how to use it. i don't know about other types of machines.
anyway, i do feel that getting the most out your car means trying to use all the adjustments available to tune it to your driving style. hopefully we can get a good thread on alignment options going here.
amp
#18
06-09-2009, 04:48 PM
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#19
06-09-2009, 06:34 PM
#20
06-09-2009, 07:57 PM
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I've never really had any issues with steady in wind or tire squeal, and the cornering has always been great
. I'm considering dialing in some front negative camber if that's possible next time I go inI'm very interested to see what other people say about changing certain things and how it affects the car. I've never really considering asking for them to do anything besides getting it in stock spec - and NTB did use the machine with four reflector type things that attach to the wheels and a big machine that had like red lights in front of the car? I think it was a Hunter machine - I'm not really sure
#21
06-09-2009, 09:56 PM
so let me get this right.....
you just got an alignment. the you changed wheels this weekend and then you got another alignment and your left front toe was out again and your left rear camber and tow were also out again?
are you having a hard time with your car holding an alignment or did the shop maybe not do such a good job the first time around?
just curious as this is all new to me!
amp
you just got an alignment. the you changed wheels this weekend and then you got another alignment and your left front toe was out again and your left rear camber and tow were also out again?
are you having a hard time with your car holding an alignment or did the shop maybe not do such a good job the first time around?
just curious as this is all new to me!
amp
#22
06-10-2009, 09:09 AM
#23
06-10-2009, 09:15 AM
#24
06-16-2009, 04:26 PM
alignment "before" info
just got my wheels balanced today. they were all out by .25 ounce or more. rides much more smoothly now.
while the wheels were off, i got a good look at the tire wear patterns.
left front (driver) is wearing on outside a bit.
right front (pass) is wearing on outside and cupping quite a bit on inside.
left rear is wearing pretty evenly.
right rear is cupping slightly on both inside and outside.
the rear tires have about 10K miles on them. it looks like the fronts are original so they have about 24K miles on them! the tire guy and i were both surprised they had made it that far due to the very low treadwear rating on the stock bridgestones. i think the first owner must have pretty much babied this car and driven it mostly on the interstate!
i was surprised to learn that indeed there are no manufacturer's specs for front caster or camber on this car. only front toe and rear caster and toe. one shop (toyota dealer) did tell me they may be able to install a kit (eccentric bolt i'm assuming) to get some front adjustment but they wouldn't know until they had it up on the machine.
it will probably go into the shop next week. should be interesting to see what the before printout looks like!
then i'll keep the same old tires on for awhile and see what, if anything, changes. i'd like to get things pretty much dialed in before the new rubber goes on.
amp
while the wheels were off, i got a good look at the tire wear patterns.
left front (driver) is wearing on outside a bit.
right front (pass) is wearing on outside and cupping quite a bit on inside.
left rear is wearing pretty evenly.
right rear is cupping slightly on both inside and outside.
the rear tires have about 10K miles on them. it looks like the fronts are original so they have about 24K miles on them! the tire guy and i were both surprised they had made it that far due to the very low treadwear rating on the stock bridgestones. i think the first owner must have pretty much babied this car and driven it mostly on the interstate!
i was surprised to learn that indeed there are no manufacturer's specs for front caster or camber on this car. only front toe and rear caster and toe. one shop (toyota dealer) did tell me they may be able to install a kit (eccentric bolt i'm assuming) to get some front adjustment but they wouldn't know until they had it up on the machine.
it will probably go into the shop next week. should be interesting to see what the before printout looks like!
then i'll keep the same old tires on for awhile and see what, if anything, changes. i'd like to get things pretty much dialed in before the new rubber goes on.
amp
#25
06-16-2009, 04:57 PM
caster, camber and SAI - real world and track
here's an interesting thread on SAI, caster and camber adjustments. it's a subaru STI thread, but they do mention the g35 favorably about halfway down the first page.
http://www.iwsti.com/forums/gd-suspe...-analysis.html
amp
http://www.iwsti.com/forums/gd-suspe...-analysis.html
amp
#26
06-30-2009, 04:50 AM
some wear information running slightly increased camber.
Quote:
Originally Posted by baileyt35
Do you have the front and rear camber kit? Even with a kit the tires still wear on the inside? Are all (4) balding on the inside?
I only have the rear SPC camber arms.(need to update my sig) Stock front arms with the -1.6/-1.7 front camber and still got 29k. I'm still driving on them but will replace in the next few weeks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by baileyt35
Do you have the front and rear camber kit? Even with a kit the tires still wear on the inside? Are all (4) balding on the inside?
I only have the rear SPC camber arms.(need to update my sig) Stock front arms with the -1.6/-1.7 front camber and still got 29k. I'm still driving on them but will replace in the next few weeks.
#27
06-30-2009, 02:42 PM
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#28
07-22-2009, 12:43 AM
ok, finally got into the dealer for an alignment yesterday. posted up the scans. they did three different readouts for us.
first, car before anything done with trunk full.
second, car before anything done with trunk empty. yes, it actually made that much difference. how much crap did i have in the trunk? well, not all that much, actually. my wife and 21 month old had driven to missouri from kansas so we had a couple of suitcases, laptop, stroller, etc. i'm guessing no more than 100 lbs. just that much weight changed the rear camber setting more negative by about 27%! enough to make the difference between being in spec and being out of spec.
third printout is after alignment trunk still empty.
i was getting some outside tire wear with cupping on the inside of the passenger tire. this is most likely because the toe was actually negative on the passenger side. corrected, it is now positive on both sides and roughly equal. this is the lack of tension i mentioned i felt in previous post. the car was squirrely and would get tossed around a bit on uneven pavement on secondary roads. this is mostly gone now.
the service writer guy told me some interesting things. said almost every G he has ever had in has some cupping. also said the bridgestones are the worst about doing it and the loudest when cupped. i definitely have this. said the michelins (at a mere $280 a pop) were the best about being quiet with a little cupping and that most customers were happiest with the michelin tires. take that for what it is worth.
i was getting some inside tire wear on the rears. they asked me what i wanted them to do. i said do what you would do if it was your car. they left it alone. i'm not real thrilled that they didn't even up the negative camber on the rear, but i didn't really have a leg to stand on. the guy with 15 years experience did what he thought was best, so the guy with one month experience (me) shut up and sat on his hands. after i figure out what i want to do with the rims and get new tires, i'll probably go back and get it set a little better.
right now, just fixing the toe improved the car's driveability a vast amount. it tracks down the interstate and feels solid. i didn't get a chance to drive it fast on the curves as it was raining the whole time i was there and the tires are mostly shot. next time i'll have more fun!
for now, next step is to get rims figured out and get new rubber.
hope that helps!
amp
first, car before anything done with trunk full.
second, car before anything done with trunk empty. yes, it actually made that much difference. how much crap did i have in the trunk? well, not all that much, actually. my wife and 21 month old had driven to missouri from kansas so we had a couple of suitcases, laptop, stroller, etc. i'm guessing no more than 100 lbs. just that much weight changed the rear camber setting more negative by about 27%! enough to make the difference between being in spec and being out of spec.
third printout is after alignment trunk still empty.
i was getting some outside tire wear with cupping on the inside of the passenger tire. this is most likely because the toe was actually negative on the passenger side. corrected, it is now positive on both sides and roughly equal. this is the lack of tension i mentioned i felt in previous post. the car was squirrely and would get tossed around a bit on uneven pavement on secondary roads. this is mostly gone now.
the service writer guy told me some interesting things. said almost every G he has ever had in has some cupping. also said the bridgestones are the worst about doing it and the loudest when cupped. i definitely have this. said the michelins (at a mere $280 a pop) were the best about being quiet with a little cupping and that most customers were happiest with the michelin tires. take that for what it is worth.
i was getting some inside tire wear on the rears. they asked me what i wanted them to do. i said do what you would do if it was your car. they left it alone. i'm not real thrilled that they didn't even up the negative camber on the rear, but i didn't really have a leg to stand on. the guy with 15 years experience did what he thought was best, so the guy with one month experience (me) shut up and sat on his hands. after i figure out what i want to do with the rims and get new tires, i'll probably go back and get it set a little better.
right now, just fixing the toe improved the car's driveability a vast amount. it tracks down the interstate and feels solid. i didn't get a chance to drive it fast on the curves as it was raining the whole time i was there and the tires are mostly shot. next time i'll have more fun!
for now, next step is to get rims figured out and get new rubber.
hope that helps!
amp
#29
07-26-2009, 03:31 PM
Registered User
Sorry for the late response. I didn't see that this thread was moved. In any case, I think the wear is pretty decent. It's hard to say because not too much time has passed but I am happy with the way the car feels. I don't think I had any noticeable performance changes but keep in mind that I don't track the car. I just like to commute in style. Typically I'm laid back while driving so I'm just more concerned with tire wear and comfort. Never the less, it seems to be working well. As far as I'm concerned, keeping the toe in check is the secret. That's why I got the unlimited alignment plane and I get a fresh one ever couple/few months.