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Hotchkis Sway's, what % increase?
About to order these Sways, but stiffness increase over stock is adjustable, 9, 32, and 63 for the front, and 54, 92, and 146 for the rear. What do you guys recomend i set them at? Most driving is hard street driving, harshness of the ride isn't nearly as important to me as handling ability, but i don't want to feel every crack.
2004 Sedan Black/Willow Premium w/ splash guards Clear Corners, Z-tube Stillen Air box, drilled pedals |
Re: Hotchkis Sway's, what % increase?
Because our car was set up to understeer from the factory,
many recommend the rear bar be set stiffer than the front. Initially I set my Stillen sway bars to their stiffest setting both front and rear. I later changed the front bar to the softest setting. 7% stiffer up front, 70% stiffer in the rear. The car seems pretty well balanced now. 03 5AT Sedan, sunroof, splashguards, HKS muffler, 14 wire Grounding kit, Z Duct, Stillen HF/AB Underbody rear diffusers, Drilled alum pedals, Stillen sway bars S/H. Sport Tuned Suspension |
Re: Hotchkis Sway's, what % increase?
In the past Nissan used overly stiff front bars which overload front tires [to make them washout first] underseer!
Many times a stiffer rear bar and a softer front bar is the answer........save money First try an adjustable rear bar only unless the company offers a softer than oem front adjustment position. |
Re: Hotchkis Sway's, what % increase?
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Re: Hotchkis Sway's, what % increase?
Q45... your suggestion is exactly what I have done. I bought the rear 350EVO sway only and set that to the med setting which I believe is 25% more than stock. Went to a track day not too long ago with that setting and it felt more neutral. Next time I may set the rear to full stiff at 50% and see how that feels at the track. And if for some reason I need to get the front bar one day I can still do that since 350EVO has an option of buying the bars seperately.
04' G35S 6MT Ivory Pearl, Willow, Premium Z-Tube / NFC Y-Pipe / Custom Mid-Pipe / 350 EVO Rear Sway/ '03 350Z Shocks and Springs |
Re: Hotchkis Sway's, what % increase?
Ok, well im getting two different recomendations, and im definately interested in both opinions. The med/med with the hotchkis sounds good, but how much is the single 350Evo bar, if its significatnly cheaper i may just buy them seperately. Do you have a link please to where you bought them?
2004 Sedan Black/Willow Premium w/ splash guards Clear Corners, Z-tube Stillen Air box, drilled pedals |
Re: Hotchkis Sway's, what % increase?
I'm at M/M and find the car a bit twitchy so I am going to go to a Medium front and go in between Medium and Soft in the rear adn see what happens. The change from understeer was quite noticable. I think the balance is there but want to work on the twitchyness of the tail. Anyone else notice the edginess with MM or harder?
2003.5 DP 5AT Sedan 14.2 @ 97.18 Z-Tube K&N Drop In & Airbox Mod 10 Wire Hyper-Ground Crawford Plenum (V4) UR Crank Pulley Hotchkis Sways (M/M) Polk EX-3500 Tweeters/Shock Sensor/H-Liner |
Re: Hotchkis Sway's, what % increase?
The factory front sway bar is massive. Q45 is probably right.
All these guys want to do is sell us two bars rather than one. I bet just upgrading the rear bar is the way to go. 03 5AT Sedan, sunroof, splashguards, HKS muffler, 14 wire Grounding kit, Z Duct, Stillen HF/AB Underbody rear diffusers, Drilled alum pedals, Stillen sway bars S/H. Sport Tuned Suspension |
Re: Hotchkis Sway's, what % increase?
Remember a sway bay works by reducing the tire traction by increasing the transfer weight on the tire. If anything the front needs more traction so softer front bar than oem.
But 5-10% stiffer front bar is minor since the springs are stiffer than the bar, so a 5%/2 = only 2.5% [10%/2= 5%] more front stiffness. When you add a stiffer rear bar you should soften the front bar as you want the minimum bar stiffness that will do the job. For example on a Q45 when ever Nissan added an optional rear bar they had an optional softer front bar [usually 1mm smaller 29>28mm ~~13% softer front with a 10-12% stiffer rear bar. The next step up was the same 13% softer front and a 33% siffer rear. The total rear stiffness shift [change] was -13 + 33= 46/3=~~15%.........the divide by ~~3 is there because the springs didn't change. In totality the springs and bars [no rear one to a 20mm rear one and softer front] only shifted the total ratio of rear stiffness reward by 8%..........the stock oem front [no rear bar]was 71% of the total stiffness and this decreased [because the rear got stiffer] to 63%..........still understeered but a lot less. The classic Goldilocks problem too hard: 71%. 63% or 54% When ever the front roll stiffness is equal to the front weight bias [54/46] you have a so called neutral set up, unfortunately this is very dangerous in wet or acceleration when rear tires have to share traction so a 59-61% [even 63%] front stiffness ratio is used on an ultra hight performance car. Becareful of progressive rate rear springs [with big rear bars], under 2-2.5" body roll the rear can go up 50% over what stiffness is at 1" which means a variable roll stiffness.......neutral at light turning loads that gets more towards OVERSTEER as you turn more aggressively or in emergencies.......the opposite of what you would normally expect in a factory designed to understeer car. Back to selling front sway bars! It is hard to get people to understand and pay for a softer front bar than oem because they don't understand how sway bars work. Having to pay for less seems wrong to average owner. It is the ratio of front to rear to total stiffness that counts. Disconnect the front bar and watch the G35 go towards OVERSTEER with stock rear bar......the front bar creates the understeer! |
Re: Hotchkis Sway's, what % increase?
ok your explination makes sense to me, so im going to be getting a 350Z suspension kit, what do you recomend i do in terms of sways at this point? Can you even buy a softer front bar for this car? I really appreciate all your help!
2004 Sedan Black/Willow Premium w/ splash guards Clear Corners, Z-tube Stillen Air box, drilled pedals |
Re: Hotchkis Sway's, what % increase?
I believe the 350EVO front sway and the rear sway at the softest setting is softer than it's respective stock bar. The front soft is around -8% and the rear soft is around -2.6%.
04' G35S 6MT Ivory Pearl, Willow, Premium Z-Tube / NFC Y-Pipe / Custom Mid-Pipe / 350 EVO Rear Sway/ '03 350Z Shocks and Springs |
Re: Hotchkis Sway's, what % increase?
Before you go wasting money on a suspension change [for minor incremental gains] just try rear bar stiffness substitutions and a precision alignment making sure all readings are EXACTLY at the mid point of the range.
When you exhaust the improvements possible with a FINELY tuned rear bar.[or try multiple rear bars in different ranges]..........in 10% stiffness increments. If you have an 80 lb/in bar [wheel rate] you can feel a 10 pound change ~~ 5% in total rear wheel roll stiffness. NASCAR drivers claim they can feel a 1.0 psi tire pressure change [2.5%] which corresponds to a [1500 x 0.025]/5=7.5 pound inch change in wheel rate stiffness. [[tire stiffness in series with spring and bar stiffness]] Obviously a G35 chassis is not as stiff, nor are the springs so more compliance than a race car but still necessary to ZERO IN on optimum. Rear tire sidewall compliance [stiffness] is critical as it changes with psi which changes with temperature which changes with aggressiveness of manuevers. What ever you do don't run a rear bar that is stiffer than the rear springs [wheel rate] without changing shocks to compensate for at least half the new bars stiffness increase. This is where most get in trouble not having enough rebound control to dampen side to side oscillations with stiffer bars. If you use a 50% stiffer rear bar the total stiffness goes up 15-20% so you need 7-10% stiffer rear shocks on rebound. Adjustable rebound rear shocks are usually a necessity with adjustable rear bars to get it right and to compensate for shock wear as they age. Notice I've never mentioned spring changes, or ride height changes or doing anything to front suspension......get the rear optimized and you'll not need to touch the front. |
Re: Hotchkis Sway's, what % increase?
Something to consider is what happens when you set one side of the rear sway bar at a different hole [stiffness] from the other side. I'll leave that to you to figure out. Consider the physics.
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Re: Hotchkis Sway's, what % increase?
Ok, at this point my car/physics knowledge is being surpassed. I just wanted to decrease body roll while doing high speed turning, not make a perfectly neutral race car. Im defintaely gonna get the 350z suspension becuase i like the way the car looks with the drop, and i want a stiffer feel to the car (i don't have sports suspension). Do you think adding a set of the sways is going to help with the minor things i want, or will it just screw up the already good balance of the car?
2004 Sedan Black/Willow Premium w/ splash guards Clear Corners, Z-tube Stillen Air box, drilled pedals |
Re: Hotchkis Sway's, what % increase?
Yes they will help. Your best bet is to get adjustable bars to account for different spring/shock combinations. Start with a med/med setting then adjust after a period of driving to see which combination feels right to you.
Be aware that by reducing understeer you will be reducing feedback that you consciencely or subconsciencely use to keep the car from getting too close to the edge of its abilities. Once you find the settings that feel right to you, take your car to a controlled area and test the car by doing sloloms and other maneuvers to find its new limits. It will be better to find the cars new breaking point sooner rather than later. Keep in mind the car will handle differently in wet weather as well. I've done several different mods and I've got to say that I've gotten the most satisfaction from adding the anti-sway bars. Enjoy http://www.floridag35.com |
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