vq35DE and vq35HR in depth comparison
#1
05-28-2012, 09:11 PM
vq35DE and vq35HR in depth comparison
so, this week i was bored and pulled my motor (vq35de rev-up) to compare it to a vq35hr that i just bought seeing how im rocking the break in tune until i get a different engine management and fuel set-up...I've come to find that although everyone says they are completely different from each other. I've found a ton of similarities....my main interest was the heads. I did alot of research and here is what i knew going in to the tear down..
the blocks are different
the heads are "different" (you will see why i put it in quotation marks further down)
the lifter buckets in the heads are coated with a smooth-surfaced hydrogen free diamond like coating (this reduces friction by 40% than my lifters)
the cams are different only in the way that the cam sensors read the signal on the back of the cam (not use able non the less
heres where it gets interesting (for me at least haha)
I have measured the major dimensions of the two different heads and they are the same. essentially the HR has rev-up heads, they just moved where the cam sensors go. I read that the hr has a taller deck...this is not true. and a buddy of mine does head work so we are going to machine the holes in the back of the hr heads to match my rev-up heads and throw them on my motor. everything from my rev-up heads fits perfectly into the hr heads (checked the valve lash too)
heres where i almost had a road block in my plans...my aps twin turbo manifolds. I read somewhere that another guy wanted to put his on an hr but that the manifolds were higher up and would lead to interference issues. but seeing how i discovered the heads are the same dimensions this lead me to the block. the reason the hr block (<--haha h&r block) is different is because the rods are longer than in the de to reduce piston slap but they use the same crankshaft so therefore....yup you guessed it...the block itself is taller.
enough rambling...here is a simple list of things that will without modification bolt on to a de or de rev up.
the oil pump, it is the same as a nismo oil pump just a newer model,
the cam timing gears,
intake looks physically different to the trained eye but is the same diameter and has the same timing marks
exhaust is the same as a rev-up
obviously head studs, main studs as well..i've heard the head studs were stronger, i can't confirm this personally but they physically fit de blocks
valve lifter buckets fit perfectly (and have the added plus of the coating)
water pump is physically the same but I have been told it is under driven to compensate for the higher rev limit, which makes sense because you dont want to over stress the water pump and have it crap out on you
the valves are the same, 37mm intake 31.5 mm exhaust
and a couple other things im sure i forgot to mention
most people wouldn't bother with this but I picked up the motor [which im parting out but as you can see i may use the heads
]and just thought this was all quite interesting for those of us tryng to find out what is compatible and what is not
if there are any questions or I have given mis-information feel free to ask or POLITELY correct me
the blocks are different
the heads are "different" (you will see why i put it in quotation marks further down)
the lifter buckets in the heads are coated with a smooth-surfaced hydrogen free diamond like coating (this reduces friction by 40% than my lifters)
the cams are different only in the way that the cam sensors read the signal on the back of the cam (not use able non the less
heres where it gets interesting (for me at least haha)
I have measured the major dimensions of the two different heads and they are the same. essentially the HR has rev-up heads, they just moved where the cam sensors go. I read that the hr has a taller deck...this is not true. and a buddy of mine does head work so we are going to machine the holes in the back of the hr heads to match my rev-up heads and throw them on my motor. everything from my rev-up heads fits perfectly into the hr heads (checked the valve lash too)
heres where i almost had a road block in my plans...my aps twin turbo manifolds. I read somewhere that another guy wanted to put his on an hr but that the manifolds were higher up and would lead to interference issues. but seeing how i discovered the heads are the same dimensions this lead me to the block. the reason the hr block (<--haha h&r block) is different is because the rods are longer than in the de to reduce piston slap but they use the same crankshaft so therefore....yup you guessed it...the block itself is taller.
enough rambling...here is a simple list of things that will without modification bolt on to a de or de rev up.
the oil pump, it is the same as a nismo oil pump just a newer model,
the cam timing gears,
intake looks physically different to the trained eye but is the same diameter and has the same timing marks
exhaust is the same as a rev-up
obviously head studs, main studs as well..i've heard the head studs were stronger, i can't confirm this personally but they physically fit de blocks
valve lifter buckets fit perfectly (and have the added plus of the coating)
water pump is physically the same but I have been told it is under driven to compensate for the higher rev limit, which makes sense because you dont want to over stress the water pump and have it crap out on you
the valves are the same, 37mm intake 31.5 mm exhaust
and a couple other things im sure i forgot to mention
most people wouldn't bother with this but I picked up the motor [which im parting out but as you can see i may use the heads
]and just thought this was all quite interesting for those of us tryng to find out what is compatible and what is notif there are any questions or I have given mis-information feel free to ask or POLITELY correct me
Last edited by G35Bandit; 05-29-2012 at 09:05 PM. Reason: typos and added info
#4
05-29-2012, 08:57 PM
just a head swap, I've got a built block so I'd have to machine the new block and get and ecu and all that other nonsense. I mainly want to use these heads because my lifters started ticking and some things I just don't like doing...like a valve lash adjustment...haha I'd rather tear apart my motor a couple times
#6
06-21-2012, 02:12 PM
good info, i thought it was a known fact that the HR and Rev-Up heads are the same only cams and buckets are different. or thats what ive been telling people all this time haha. as for the block theyre completely different, such as the block height (higher by a 8.xx mm) bigger crank bearings and the big plus about an HR block is the ladder type girdle which supposedly was the first production motor to use that aside from race teams or something. btw the HR block is the same as the VHR block too so with a VQ37VHR crank 35HR rods and a custom pistons with wrist pins moved up a bit to clear the deck and you got yourself a fairly cheap stroker (of course depending on how you get your parts and if you can do it yourself)
#7
06-27-2012, 02:07 PM
so when i was at work, in between doing customer cars i decided to tinker with my own stuff, mainly the differencecs between oil pumps, and did some research on what REALLY makes an oil pump capable of high RPM's...
Now...I don't know about you guys...but for the life of me I have no idea why everyone thinks the rev-up oil pump is better than the non-rev up. Since I sold my rev-up I did not have it to compare but I did find someone else who did but I'll get to that in a minute...(theres no need to click the following link because i will be resharing the information, but i felt that credit was due)
http://forums.maxima.org/all-motor/5...oil-pumps.html
So...I unfortunately discovered that an HR oil pump will not bolt on to a de block...one of the aligning holes is the most annoying little bit off [i considered just breaking that piece off but id rather not ghetto rig the race car]...here was my solution...MAYBE THE INTERNALS OF THE HR PUMP WOULD FIT IN THE ORIGINAL PUMP!?....nope...and heres why...
The HR has a noticeably bigger gear!...which would be great for delivering oil properly at high RPM's...but I could not reseal the Original oil pump because the gear was too big =/.
(more to read after picture)
This find was a big disappointment...until I got to thinking...what makes an oil pump capable of high RPM's...in that link I posted, the guy cracked open a non rev-up and a rev-up oil pump and they were exactly the same, his only noted differences were that the rev-up gear was .4 ounces heavier and he said that would mean the gears were made of different materials, but I think it was just because the older pump had been used longer so metal had worn away (just an opinion). He also found that the pressure relief valve spring was a little beefier in the rev-up compared to the non-rev up.
So I did some research...WHY WOULD EVERYONE SWEAR BY THE REV-UP OIL PUMP IF ITS ESSENTIALLY THE SAME?!...after i explain how an oil pump truely works...alot of people are going to wonder the same question...
OIL PUMP...HOW IT WORKS
an oil pump is designed to create oil pressure and send oil throughout the engine...our pumps are designed so that whatever speed the crankshaft is turning at, the gear inside the pump is also spinning at that speed. when the speed begins to get above about 5,000 the gear can actually end up creating bubbles in the oil (not good). This means that instead of pumping oil throughout the engine, the pump is actually pumping a vapor and I dont know about you guys but I put oil in my car for a reason...not vapor. The only way to help solve the vaporizing problem is to A: run a thicker oil or B: have a way to keep oil pressure up at high RPMs....now that you guys have this information, can anyone tell me why the rev-up pump is better?
I'll tell you...its not the gear...seriously...I've never heard of an oil pump failing on a vq...I have a ton of these oil pump and it took a freaking plasma cutter at work to cut through the gear of the old DE gear. THE ONLY THING THAT MIGHT MAKE A REV-UP BETTER IS THE PRESSURE RELIEF SPRING...having a beefier spring (although not much beefier) will allow the oil pressure to stay built up during high RPM use, which is excellent because more oil pressure means oil is getting where it needs to be and creating the clearances that NISSAN wants =)......to sum it up....everyone was following the band wagon...when they could seriously keep their oil pump, spend maybe 5$ on a stronger spring and call it a day (you would need to know how to measure spring rates, you don't want one that is too strong 0.o) ok....back to the HR
It is clear that the HR oil pump lives up to its name...now that I've explained how an oil pump works, the HR's bigger gear (gets more oil in each cavity) is an obvious reason why it is a better oil pump. BUT...it also has...A DUAL VALVE SPRING....I was shocked...nissan really stepped their game up, the pressure relief spring in an HR pump is a dual spring set-up....so do you know what i did?
I THREW THE HR SPRING INTO MY DE PUMP (I'm not suggesting this until I test it but this is seriously the only differenc between the non rev-up and the rev-up...so i figure if all the rev-up has is a strong spring...why don't i use THE STRONGEST spring)
In short...de and rev-up...same **** different spring...HR...king oil pump with biggest gear and strongest pressure relief spring
andddddd for the little more tinkering i did with the heads...i found out that the intake runners on an HR are ported alot more than on a DE...but that all you would have to do theoretically is port the DE lower manifold collector and have cheap ported heads (which i have a pair of HR heads if anyone is interested ;P)
Now...I don't know about you guys...but for the life of me I have no idea why everyone thinks the rev-up oil pump is better than the non-rev up. Since I sold my rev-up I did not have it to compare but I did find someone else who did but I'll get to that in a minute...(theres no need to click the following link because i will be resharing the information, but i felt that credit was due)
http://forums.maxima.org/all-motor/5...oil-pumps.html
So...I unfortunately discovered that an HR oil pump will not bolt on to a de block...one of the aligning holes is the most annoying little bit off [i considered just breaking that piece off but id rather not ghetto rig the race car
]...here was my solution...MAYBE THE INTERNALS OF THE HR PUMP WOULD FIT IN THE ORIGINAL PUMP!?....nope...and heres why...The HR has a noticeably bigger gear!...which would be great for delivering oil properly at high RPM's...but I could not reseal the Original oil pump because the gear was too big =/.
(more to read after picture)
This find was a big disappointment...until I got to thinking...what makes an oil pump capable of high RPM's...in that link I posted, the guy cracked open a non rev-up and a rev-up oil pump and they were exactly the same, his only noted differences were that the rev-up gear was .4 ounces heavier and he said that would mean the gears were made of different materials, but I think it was just because the older pump had been used longer so metal had worn away (just an opinion). He also found that the pressure relief valve spring was a little beefier in the rev-up compared to the non-rev up.
So I did some research...WHY WOULD EVERYONE SWEAR BY THE REV-UP OIL PUMP IF ITS ESSENTIALLY THE SAME?!...after i explain how an oil pump truely works...alot of people are going to wonder the same question...
OIL PUMP...HOW IT WORKS
an oil pump is designed to create oil pressure and send oil throughout the engine...our pumps are designed so that whatever speed the crankshaft is turning at, the gear inside the pump is also spinning at that speed. when the speed begins to get above about 5,000 the gear can actually end up creating bubbles in the oil (not good). This means that instead of pumping oil throughout the engine, the pump is actually pumping a vapor and I dont know about you guys but I put oil in my car for a reason...not vapor. The only way to help solve the vaporizing problem is to A: run a thicker oil or B: have a way to keep oil pressure up at high RPMs....now that you guys have this information, can anyone tell me why the rev-up pump is better?
I'll tell you...its not the gear...seriously...I've never heard of an oil pump failing on a vq...I have a ton of these oil pump and it took a freaking plasma cutter at work to cut through the gear of the old DE gear. THE ONLY THING THAT MIGHT MAKE A REV-UP BETTER IS THE PRESSURE RELIEF SPRING...having a beefier spring (although not much beefier) will allow the oil pressure to stay built up during high RPM use, which is excellent because more oil pressure means oil is getting where it needs to be and creating the clearances that NISSAN wants =)......to sum it up....everyone was following the band wagon...when they could seriously keep their oil pump, spend maybe 5$ on a stronger spring and call it a day (you would need to know how to measure spring rates, you don't want one that is too strong 0.o) ok....back to the HR
It is clear that the HR oil pump lives up to its name...now that I've explained how an oil pump works, the HR's bigger gear (gets more oil in each cavity) is an obvious reason why it is a better oil pump. BUT...it also has...A DUAL VALVE SPRING....I was shocked...nissan really stepped their game up, the pressure relief spring in an HR pump is a dual spring set-up....so do you know what i did
?I THREW THE HR SPRING INTO MY DE PUMP (I'm not suggesting this until I test it but this is seriously the only differenc between the non rev-up and the rev-up...so i figure if all the rev-up has is a strong spring...why don't i use THE STRONGEST spring)
In short...de and rev-up...same **** different spring...HR...king oil pump with biggest gear and strongest pressure relief spring
andddddd for the little more tinkering i did with the heads...i found out that the intake runners on an HR are ported alot more than on a DE...but that all you would have to do theoretically is port the DE lower manifold collector and have cheap ported heads (which i have a pair of HR heads if anyone is interested ;P)
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TunerMax (11-14-2013)
Trending Topics
#9
06-27-2012, 06:11 PM
#10
06-30-2012, 11:05 PM
problems in this "build":
1. front and rear timing covers, if you use a short deck VQ (DE or Rev-Up) and put HR heads on, yes they will bolt on, yes you can use Rev-Up cams, yes you can use the longer (by 3 threads) and stronger HR head bolts (that are used in Dai Yoshihara's Gymkhana 350z @ 600HP+) the DE and Rev-Up heads rely on oil from the rear cover to be brought into the front of the head for the VTC, you may notice the HR heads have a hole for this but no hole in the rear cover for oil to go into, the HR rear covers send oil into the VTC covers and the solenoid is mounted in the cover
2.why try to find a differnt way to put an HR into a G... just swap in the entire HR motor, everything in the HR motor is beefier and made for performance, I am a Nissan master tech and do all of the engines that go through my dealership (MR18-VK56) I have replaced 1 HR motor due to that it had GReddy oil in it and spun a rod bearing,
3.the diffence between DE and Rev-Up oil pump is the hardness, ever heard of rockwell hardness tester?
4. a dual spring does not mean it is stronger... the dual spring is for harmonics neutralization, that is why the coils are opposite of eachother, and the HR pump is so good that on the GS race cars the oil pump has added clearance so the oil pressure isn't over 100psi @ 10,000 RPMs (put that is a race engine that does not have AC or ever sit in traffic... or be expected to have a long lifespan)
1. front and rear timing covers, if you use a short deck VQ (DE or Rev-Up) and put HR heads on, yes they will bolt on, yes you can use Rev-Up cams, yes you can use the longer (by 3 threads) and stronger HR head bolts (that are used in Dai Yoshihara's Gymkhana 350z @ 600HP+) the DE and Rev-Up heads rely on oil from the rear cover to be brought into the front of the head for the VTC, you may notice the HR heads have a hole for this but no hole in the rear cover for oil to go into, the HR rear covers send oil into the VTC covers and the solenoid is mounted in the cover
2.why try to find a differnt way to put an HR into a G... just swap in the entire HR motor, everything in the HR motor is beefier and made for performance, I am a Nissan master tech and do all of the engines that go through my dealership (MR18-VK56) I have replaced 1 HR motor due to that it had GReddy oil in it and spun a rod bearing,
3.the diffence between DE and Rev-Up oil pump is the hardness, ever heard of rockwell hardness tester?
4. a dual spring does not mean it is stronger... the dual spring is for harmonics neutralization, that is why the coils are opposite of eachother, and the HR pump is so good that on the GS race cars the oil pump has added clearance so the oil pressure isn't over 100psi @ 10,000 RPMs (put that is a race engine that does not have AC or ever sit in traffic... or be expected to have a long lifespan)
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wechslerl (03-19-2013)
#11
07-01-2012, 11:06 AM
problems in this "build":
1. front and rear timing covers, if you use a short deck VQ (DE or Rev-Up) and put HR heads on, yes they will bolt on, yes you can use Rev-Up cams, yes you can use the longer (by 3 threads) and stronger HR head bolts (that are used in Dai Yoshihara's Gymkhana 350z @ 600HP+) the DE and Rev-Up heads rely on oil from the rear cover to be brought into the front of the head for the VTC, you may notice the HR heads have a hole for this but no hole in the rear cover for oil to go into, the HR rear covers send oil into the VTC covers and the solenoid is mounted in the cover
2.why try to find a differnt way to put an HR into a G... just swap in the entire HR motor, everything in the HR motor is beefier and made for performance, I am a Nissan master tech and do all of the engines that go through my dealership (MR18-VK56) I have replaced 1 HR motor due to that it had GReddy oil in it and spun a rod bearing,
3.the diffence between DE and Rev-Up oil pump is the hardness, ever heard of rockwell hardness tester?
4. a dual spring does not mean it is stronger... the dual spring is for harmonics neutralization, that is why the coils are opposite of eachother, and the HR pump is so good that on the GS race cars the oil pump has added clearance so the oil pressure isn't over 100psi @ 10,000 RPMs (put that is a race engine that does not have AC or ever sit in traffic... or be expected to have a long lifespan)
1. front and rear timing covers, if you use a short deck VQ (DE or Rev-Up) and put HR heads on, yes they will bolt on, yes you can use Rev-Up cams, yes you can use the longer (by 3 threads) and stronger HR head bolts (that are used in Dai Yoshihara's Gymkhana 350z @ 600HP+) the DE and Rev-Up heads rely on oil from the rear cover to be brought into the front of the head for the VTC, you may notice the HR heads have a hole for this but no hole in the rear cover for oil to go into, the HR rear covers send oil into the VTC covers and the solenoid is mounted in the cover
2.why try to find a differnt way to put an HR into a G... just swap in the entire HR motor, everything in the HR motor is beefier and made for performance, I am a Nissan master tech and do all of the engines that go through my dealership (MR18-VK56) I have replaced 1 HR motor due to that it had GReddy oil in it and spun a rod bearing,
3.the diffence between DE and Rev-Up oil pump is the hardness, ever heard of rockwell hardness tester?
4. a dual spring does not mean it is stronger... the dual spring is for harmonics neutralization, that is why the coils are opposite of eachother, and the HR pump is so good that on the GS race cars the oil pump has added clearance so the oil pressure isn't over 100psi @ 10,000 RPMs (put that is a race engine that does not have AC or ever sit in traffic... or be expected to have a long lifespan)
Can you please explain the "harness" i assume your talking about the Gear itself is a harder metal, but how does that make it more reliable at higher RPM's?
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wechslerl (03-19-2013)
#13
03-18-2013, 06:03 PM
I am searching everywhere to find out if there are any differences between the pistons of the VQ35DE with Auto and the High Rev (with manual transmission) for the 2005 and 2006 G35.
I am looking specifically to find any differences for the oil rings and its grooves.
If there are any differences, that will explain oil consumption, but if there are none , that will mean that all those engines suffer from same high oil consumption but only Owners with manual Trans bother to check the oil !!!!!
Please let us know if you found anything in the Pistons and rings.
I am looking specifically to find any differences for the oil rings and its grooves.
If there are any differences, that will explain oil consumption, but if there are none , that will mean that all those engines suffer from same high oil consumption but only Owners with manual Trans bother to check the oil !!!!!
Please let us know if you found anything in the Pistons and rings.
#14
03-18-2013, 06:08 PM
I am searching everywhere to find out if there are any differences between the pistons of the VQ35DE with Auto and the High Rev (with manual transmission) for the 2005 and 2006 G35.
I am looking specifically to find any differences for the oil rings and its grooves.
If there are any differences, that will explain oil consumption, but if there are none , that will mean that all those engines suffer from same high oil consumption but only Owners with manual Trans bother to check the oil !!!!!
Please let us know if you found anything in the Pistons and rings.
I am looking specifically to find any differences for the oil rings and its grooves.
If there are any differences, that will explain oil consumption, but if there are none , that will mean that all those engines suffer from same high oil consumption but only Owners with manual Trans bother to check the oil !!!!!
Please let us know if you found anything in the Pistons and rings.
#15
03-27-2013, 03:37 PM
