2008 G in new motor trend
#16
02-19-2007, 08:53 AM
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#18
02-21-2007, 02:52 PM
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#19
02-22-2007, 06:18 AM
I posted this a few months ago, but, what the he!!, the topic of the 335 vs. G35 came up again, so why not my previous comments come up again as well? These are also just my own personal thoughts; there are few absolute “rights” and “wrongs” or “goods” or “bads” with cars. That’s the beauty of taste and freedom of choice, just buy what you like and enjoy it.
I was in the same position, and spent a lot of time thinking about the 335 vs. the 2008 G35 Coupe. I am a hard core car nut, have owned 95 cars in the past 33 years. I am completely brand agnostic, have no loyalty to any particular one. I have restored, raced, and worked on many cars, and look at them from perspectives that most people don't (I also tend to be a perfectionist, and want reliability and fair value as well as being fun to drive) . My 04 G35 Coupe was one of my favorite cars ever, it was such a great balance of exotic looks, excellent performance, real-world practicality, and reasonable price. I have owned a couple of BMW's, and looked long and hard at the 335 (and actually placed an order for one, which I cancelled a couple of months ago). With BMW today, I would suggest it might not be as much fun to own one as it is to drive one.
The 335 is an absolute blast to drive, as are most BMW’s. It is a great balance of performance with luxury. The company should also be saluted for offering manual transmissions in many of their models at a time when most companies don’t. However, BMW has done a fantastic job of marketing itself over the past 20 years. Where do you think the whole “ultimate driving machine” mantra came from? BMW itself, with brilliant, persistent marketing. The company has set standards for skillful product placement. So many movies and television shows over the past two decades have BMW’s in them whenever “upscale, affluent” lifestyles or “beautiful people” are depicted. BMW itself now touts the “BMW lifestyle” in their marketing. Their efforts have been phenomenally successful. Most people think “BMW” when they think “upscale” car, or “upscale” lifestyle. Just like the cigarette advertising of the second half of this century, a whole generation – us – now has BMW successfully branded on our psyches as the “it” car to have. Most people that are – or want to be – “upscale” want to have a BMW (like, it seems, most of the population of Southern California).
IMHO, for many years BMW richly deserved that reputation. The 2002, which started the whole legend, was a fun to drive, beautifully engineered, reliable, reasonably priced car. Unfortunately (also IMHO), BMW’s today are a different animal, particularly epitomized by the 335. After 20 years of aggressive marketing, and successfully brainwashing most people into reflexively being willing to buy anything with the blue and white propeller, BMW now seems to be resting on its laurels and focused on maximizing profit.
If you take a close, critical, objective look at the 335, it is apparent that the company has gone through it with a fine toothed comb looking for ways to cut costs and maximize their profits. I know people in the car biz, and they admit that they look at everything and ask, “will people still buy it for the same price if we do this”? Look at the 335’s windshield wipers – flimsy and unacceptable on a Kia. Many of the interior control ***** likewise would shame a Hyundai. No spare tire (saves $50, and most people will still buy it and pay the same price as if it had one). It doesn’t even have an oil dipstick, so you can’t even check the condition of the oil. “Driving dynamics” and “chassis perfection”? Yes, it’s a lot of fun to drive, but the 335 doesn’t even have a limited slip differential, which means it’s essentially sending all its power through a single driven wheel. Save $5 here and $10 there (or a few hundred without the LSD), the next thing you know, it’s $2,000 more profit per unit, an impressive accomplishment in the razor-thin margins of the automobile industry.
The 335 has also been designed to make owners dependent on the dealer, and addicted to expensive – and not easily substituted – maintenance. To wit: composite brake rotors, which cannot be turned and must be replaced at every brake job (20,000 miles or so), to the tune of $740. Those flimsy windshield wipers that you can’t get anywhere else? $48. I got quotes for oil changes from two dealers (proprietary tools, have to go to the dealer to get it done): $130 and $200. For an oil change!
BMW’s brilliant marketing also promotes “free maintenance”. Which, of course, it isn’t – the cost is just built into the price up-front. The “free” maintenance also gets you oil changes every 15,000 miles (= 3 oil changes during the warranty period). Even a company that builds engines as fine as BMW cannot repeal the laws of physics and metallurgy. While synthetic oils certainly last longer than conventional, this is partially offset by the higher operating temperatures that are used to extract better efficiency – and as a result, shorten oil life. This is especially true in a turbo engine like the 335 (turbos actually get red hot in operation). After 5,000-6,000 miles of this kind of thermal stress, even the best synthetic oil is going to have its shear properties significantly degraded. Bottom line, 15,000 mile oil changes will get almost any engine through the warranty period without any problems, but I would hate to see what the bearings look like after 100,000 miles – or own the engine once it’s out of warranty. Even on the BMW forums many fans are seeing the 335 as a “lease and return”, one to have fun with but that you wouldn’t want to own once the warranty has expired.
Which is the culmination of BMW’s shrewd marketing: lease their cars, and once the warranty and lease are up, lease a new one. Like a smart drug dealer, get the customer hooked, and then keep them addicted and regularly coming back for more. It is a classic, brilliant business strategy to move a product from a periodic capital purchase (buy a car every several years) to a continuous income stream (lease payments for life). It maximizes and stabilizes the company’s cash flow. I take my hat off my (balding) head to BMW for figuring out how to do this. If I worked for them I would try to do the same thing.
But I don’t. I am a consumer. I am lucky enough to be able to afford any car BMW makes, but I didn’t get here by flushing money down the toilet unnecessarily (well, at least not too much….). I know it’s one of my own pet peeves, but I don’t like being led down the garden path to help line someone else’s pockets. Even the maintenance costs have become a secondary message of BMW’s marketing – the cost of the “BMW lifestyle”. The BMW enthusiasts on the forums sniff about “superior driving dynamics”, which seems funny given that most of them have no clue what than means, but they can parrot back what has been imprinted on them in BMW’s marketing. It is also amusing that most of them defend BMW’s lack of reliability by saying “you own a BMW for the drive, not the reliability”, and “you shouldn’t buy a BMW if you want a reliable car” – also straight out of BMW marketing. If you built a car that was more expensive but less reliable than the competition, what else would you say to keep the addicts coming back?
IMHO, the performance of the new G35 (based on the sedan) is not significantly different from the 335. The performance specs seem to be within a few tenths of a second of each other, well within the range of car-to-car variability and driver skill. A $1000 driving class would no doubt make a bigger difference in who would be faster around a track. What the G35 does have, IMHO, is more robust construction quality, and likely more straightforward maintenance – for thousands of dollars less. BMW builds some great cars – the E46 series M3 is an absolute jewel, and a terror on the track. But, IMHO, Infiniti is the true successor to the BMW legend started by the 2002, more than the 335: a solid, straightforward, comfortable, high-performance car at a reasonable price. I can’t help but think that BMW should really stand for “Bogus Marketing Works”. Like PT Barnum said, “there’s one born every minute”.
For me, the choice is to wait for the new G35 Coupe (another reason for me is because, IMHO of course, so many BMW owners seem like ****** and posers – the old joke about BMW owners and porcupines seems true). I personally think the G35 is gorgeous, fun to drive, well-built (never had a single problem with by 04 G35 Coupe in 3 years), and a good value. We live in a free country, and we are all free to buy (or lease) anything we like, as long as we can afford it (or convince a finance manager that we can). Whatever floats your boat, go for it, and enjoy it.
I know many people consider it sacrilege to not worship at the altar of BMW (I’m sure that visitors from the 335 forum will no doubt lambaste me for my blasphemous comments). But, to me BMW today seems like the story of “The Emperor’s New Clothes”: just because most people think something, doesn’t mean it’s true.
Nick
06 Porsche Boxster S (mid-life crisis car)
04 Mazda RX-8 (interim duty pending replacement by an 08 G35 Coupe)
04 Volvo S60 (the practical one)
I was in the same position, and spent a lot of time thinking about the 335 vs. the 2008 G35 Coupe. I am a hard core car nut, have owned 95 cars in the past 33 years. I am completely brand agnostic, have no loyalty to any particular one. I have restored, raced, and worked on many cars, and look at them from perspectives that most people don't (I also tend to be a perfectionist, and want reliability and fair value as well as being fun to drive) . My 04 G35 Coupe was one of my favorite cars ever, it was such a great balance of exotic looks, excellent performance, real-world practicality, and reasonable price. I have owned a couple of BMW's, and looked long and hard at the 335 (and actually placed an order for one, which I cancelled a couple of months ago). With BMW today, I would suggest it might not be as much fun to own one as it is to drive one.
The 335 is an absolute blast to drive, as are most BMW’s. It is a great balance of performance with luxury. The company should also be saluted for offering manual transmissions in many of their models at a time when most companies don’t. However, BMW has done a fantastic job of marketing itself over the past 20 years. Where do you think the whole “ultimate driving machine” mantra came from? BMW itself, with brilliant, persistent marketing. The company has set standards for skillful product placement. So many movies and television shows over the past two decades have BMW’s in them whenever “upscale, affluent” lifestyles or “beautiful people” are depicted. BMW itself now touts the “BMW lifestyle” in their marketing. Their efforts have been phenomenally successful. Most people think “BMW” when they think “upscale” car, or “upscale” lifestyle. Just like the cigarette advertising of the second half of this century, a whole generation – us – now has BMW successfully branded on our psyches as the “it” car to have. Most people that are – or want to be – “upscale” want to have a BMW (like, it seems, most of the population of Southern California).
IMHO, for many years BMW richly deserved that reputation. The 2002, which started the whole legend, was a fun to drive, beautifully engineered, reliable, reasonably priced car. Unfortunately (also IMHO), BMW’s today are a different animal, particularly epitomized by the 335. After 20 years of aggressive marketing, and successfully brainwashing most people into reflexively being willing to buy anything with the blue and white propeller, BMW now seems to be resting on its laurels and focused on maximizing profit.
If you take a close, critical, objective look at the 335, it is apparent that the company has gone through it with a fine toothed comb looking for ways to cut costs and maximize their profits. I know people in the car biz, and they admit that they look at everything and ask, “will people still buy it for the same price if we do this”? Look at the 335’s windshield wipers – flimsy and unacceptable on a Kia. Many of the interior control ***** likewise would shame a Hyundai. No spare tire (saves $50, and most people will still buy it and pay the same price as if it had one). It doesn’t even have an oil dipstick, so you can’t even check the condition of the oil. “Driving dynamics” and “chassis perfection”? Yes, it’s a lot of fun to drive, but the 335 doesn’t even have a limited slip differential, which means it’s essentially sending all its power through a single driven wheel. Save $5 here and $10 there (or a few hundred without the LSD), the next thing you know, it’s $2,000 more profit per unit, an impressive accomplishment in the razor-thin margins of the automobile industry.
The 335 has also been designed to make owners dependent on the dealer, and addicted to expensive – and not easily substituted – maintenance. To wit: composite brake rotors, which cannot be turned and must be replaced at every brake job (20,000 miles or so), to the tune of $740. Those flimsy windshield wipers that you can’t get anywhere else? $48. I got quotes for oil changes from two dealers (proprietary tools, have to go to the dealer to get it done): $130 and $200. For an oil change!
BMW’s brilliant marketing also promotes “free maintenance”. Which, of course, it isn’t – the cost is just built into the price up-front. The “free” maintenance also gets you oil changes every 15,000 miles (= 3 oil changes during the warranty period). Even a company that builds engines as fine as BMW cannot repeal the laws of physics and metallurgy. While synthetic oils certainly last longer than conventional, this is partially offset by the higher operating temperatures that are used to extract better efficiency – and as a result, shorten oil life. This is especially true in a turbo engine like the 335 (turbos actually get red hot in operation). After 5,000-6,000 miles of this kind of thermal stress, even the best synthetic oil is going to have its shear properties significantly degraded. Bottom line, 15,000 mile oil changes will get almost any engine through the warranty period without any problems, but I would hate to see what the bearings look like after 100,000 miles – or own the engine once it’s out of warranty. Even on the BMW forums many fans are seeing the 335 as a “lease and return”, one to have fun with but that you wouldn’t want to own once the warranty has expired.
Which is the culmination of BMW’s shrewd marketing: lease their cars, and once the warranty and lease are up, lease a new one. Like a smart drug dealer, get the customer hooked, and then keep them addicted and regularly coming back for more. It is a classic, brilliant business strategy to move a product from a periodic capital purchase (buy a car every several years) to a continuous income stream (lease payments for life). It maximizes and stabilizes the company’s cash flow. I take my hat off my (balding) head to BMW for figuring out how to do this. If I worked for them I would try to do the same thing.
But I don’t. I am a consumer. I am lucky enough to be able to afford any car BMW makes, but I didn’t get here by flushing money down the toilet unnecessarily (well, at least not too much….). I know it’s one of my own pet peeves, but I don’t like being led down the garden path to help line someone else’s pockets. Even the maintenance costs have become a secondary message of BMW’s marketing – the cost of the “BMW lifestyle”. The BMW enthusiasts on the forums sniff about “superior driving dynamics”, which seems funny given that most of them have no clue what than means, but they can parrot back what has been imprinted on them in BMW’s marketing. It is also amusing that most of them defend BMW’s lack of reliability by saying “you own a BMW for the drive, not the reliability”, and “you shouldn’t buy a BMW if you want a reliable car” – also straight out of BMW marketing. If you built a car that was more expensive but less reliable than the competition, what else would you say to keep the addicts coming back?
IMHO, the performance of the new G35 (based on the sedan) is not significantly different from the 335. The performance specs seem to be within a few tenths of a second of each other, well within the range of car-to-car variability and driver skill. A $1000 driving class would no doubt make a bigger difference in who would be faster around a track. What the G35 does have, IMHO, is more robust construction quality, and likely more straightforward maintenance – for thousands of dollars less. BMW builds some great cars – the E46 series M3 is an absolute jewel, and a terror on the track. But, IMHO, Infiniti is the true successor to the BMW legend started by the 2002, more than the 335: a solid, straightforward, comfortable, high-performance car at a reasonable price. I can’t help but think that BMW should really stand for “Bogus Marketing Works”. Like PT Barnum said, “there’s one born every minute”.
For me, the choice is to wait for the new G35 Coupe (another reason for me is because, IMHO of course, so many BMW owners seem like ****** and posers – the old joke about BMW owners and porcupines seems true). I personally think the G35 is gorgeous, fun to drive, well-built (never had a single problem with by 04 G35 Coupe in 3 years), and a good value. We live in a free country, and we are all free to buy (or lease) anything we like, as long as we can afford it (or convince a finance manager that we can). Whatever floats your boat, go for it, and enjoy it.
I know many people consider it sacrilege to not worship at the altar of BMW (I’m sure that visitors from the 335 forum will no doubt lambaste me for my blasphemous comments). But, to me BMW today seems like the story of “The Emperor’s New Clothes”: just because most people think something, doesn’t mean it’s true.
Nick
06 Porsche Boxster S (mid-life crisis car)
04 Mazda RX-8 (interim duty pending replacement by an 08 G35 Coupe)
04 Volvo S60 (the practical one)
Last edited by Nick-L; 02-22-2007 at 08:59 PM.
#21
02-22-2007, 10:11 AM
Nick, good post. I enjoyed reading it. Marketing is marketing, if it's done well enough (and you have a good product to back it up) then companies like BMW have a chance to be very successful. Once inferior parts of a car show up on a BMW or any other company, consumers tend to ignore it because hey, "You're paying for a BMW, the ultimate driving machine". When a company can command higher prices over a competitor who is trying to undercut them and still pulls good sales, they've got a good thing going.
Last edited by N50; 02-22-2007 at 10:53 AM.
#22
02-22-2007, 10:52 AM
#23
02-22-2007, 11:48 AM
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#25
02-23-2007, 04:33 PM
Glad you enjoyed my thoughts. They're just my own personal comments, there's no "right" and "wrong" with cars (usually....), it's just whatever you like.
BMW has done a fantastic job of marketing. They are definitely a case study in business schools of how to do it right (marketing, not necessarily building cars).
While the 335 is fast and fun to drive, for my money, I would never spend $50k on a car with an open differential (just like a '53 Ford for God's sake...). With 300+ hp, I want both wheels putting that power to the ground (both for the best in handling, as well as real-world traction). BMW's "traction control" will apply the brakes to a slipping wheel, but that's a very different proposition from giving both wheels traction in the first place.
This is one of the reasons I think BMW's are becoming cars for posers, people who don't know the difference (or care) about an open diff vs. a LSD.
I also don't like being manipulated, and won't go along with a skillful marketing job that puts a vacuum cleaner nozzle into my wallet.
BMW has done a fantastic job of marketing. They are definitely a case study in business schools of how to do it right (marketing, not necessarily building cars).
While the 335 is fast and fun to drive, for my money, I would never spend $50k on a car with an open differential (just like a '53 Ford for God's sake...). With 300+ hp, I want both wheels putting that power to the ground (both for the best in handling, as well as real-world traction). BMW's "traction control" will apply the brakes to a slipping wheel, but that's a very different proposition from giving both wheels traction in the first place.
This is one of the reasons I think BMW's are becoming cars for posers, people who don't know the difference (or care) about an open diff vs. a LSD.
I also don't like being manipulated, and won't go along with a skillful marketing job that puts a vacuum cleaner nozzle into my wallet.
#28
02-24-2007, 12:47 AM
#29
02-24-2007, 12:57 AM
#30
02-24-2007, 01:49 AM
Here ya go, from Wikipedia...
"The main advantage of a limited slip differential is found by considering the case of a standard (or "open") differential where one wheel has no contact with the ground at all. In such a case, the contacting wheel will remain stationary, and the non-contacting wheel will rotate at twice its intended velocity – the torque transmitted will be equal at both wheels, but will not exceed the threshold of torque needed to move the vehicle, thus the vehicle will remain stationary. In everyday use on typical roads, such a situation is very unlikely, and so a normal differential suffices. For more demanding use however, such as driving off-road, or for high performance vehicles, such a state of affairs is undesirable, and the LSD can be employed to deal with it. By limiting the velocity difference between a pair of driven wheels, useful torque can be transmitted as long as there is some friction available on at least one of the wheels."
"The main advantage of a limited slip differential is found by considering the case of a standard (or "open") differential where one wheel has no contact with the ground at all. In such a case, the contacting wheel will remain stationary, and the non-contacting wheel will rotate at twice its intended velocity – the torque transmitted will be equal at both wheels, but will not exceed the threshold of torque needed to move the vehicle, thus the vehicle will remain stationary. In everyday use on typical roads, such a situation is very unlikely, and so a normal differential suffices. For more demanding use however, such as driving off-road, or for high performance vehicles, such a state of affairs is undesirable, and the LSD can be employed to deal with it. By limiting the velocity difference between a pair of driven wheels, useful torque can be transmitted as long as there is some friction available on at least one of the wheels."