12POT FTW!
I believe AP and Stoptech should have a few different companies making pads for their calipers.

 

For the Mods, I am in no way selling or advertising my product or kit. I'm posting to merely clean up some of the misconceptions and share some light on the braking arena as well as it can sometimes be a little confusing.


I hope this helps a few, I look forward to hearing some responses as I think this thread is great for educational purposes. Any more questions please feel free to post, email, or PM me. Once again mods, please do not take this post down as I'm truly trying to provide information and not sell a product.

All the best ,
Alex

 

Hey guys. That is my Z ^ and I do have the Stage II OnADime setup. I too was a bit skeptical at first and had many questions about the kit. After talking to Alex I realized that he has put a lot of research into these kits and the parts included are nothing short of quality. A question that came up earlier in this thread was also a question that I had. What about the brake bias? If the total area of the Wilwood pistons are greater than stock, wouldn't that give me an unwanted front bias? After doing my own calculations I found that they are in fact the same. I will also admit that I am a bit of a name brand ***** when it comes to buying parts for my Z and I will spend months researching a product before buying it. I had originally been looking at the Endless or Project Mu kits but decided to give this a shot. Can't say enough good things for this company and not only does the kit compliment the wheels, but it most definitely bites better now. More importantly than biting "better" though, it continuously bites over and over and doesn't fade. Will be powdercoating them red soon and get some updated pics Just my $0.02.

-Eric

 

Alex;

I think you offer a fine product. I think it's a fine alternative to the factory kits and I agree there is a market for them. Believe me; you were in no way targeted here as we know there are a number of other "Wilwood based" kits on the market for this vehicle too. *And note also that I'm quick to point out this same fact at time when those kits are/were referenced. Please don't take my comments as being directed at your specifically.

Wilwood has been building street brake kits like this one now for about 10-12yrs. Yes they have a longer history in other apps such as drag racing and such but it was really the WRX kit in about 2000 that really took them into the street kit market. It was the first of the true BBKs they'd built for something other than Detroit iron. Today they offer a number of kits similar to this one for a variety of vehicles. As a dealer now since 1993 and a user since 1989 I am very familiar with their products. There are more than one kit on the market now where "off site" builders have developed similar or competing product.

The issue in the past few years has been some markets have become saturated with, for lack of another term; Wilwood knock off product. This alone does not mean these products are of a bad nature and their are quick to point out that a sale is a sale. However....it cuts both ways. When there is a problem or confusion on a knock off kit the consumer is upset with the parent company or in a case of calling me; my inability to help them get the parts they need properly. At worst case there were some kits for another platform which were extremely poorly designed and they were powerless to do much about it as the builder purchased wrong parts for the application and slapped the Wilwood name to it. I have no doubt that other companies took clear advantage of this and helped to bury the Wilwood name. Why not? It was too easy!

I was contacted on one point by Wilwood to help with this as they know I'm deep into the forums where they choose not to be. My constant soapboxing is done to help build faith in the name and properly label the products as they are. Not to put anyone out of business or crimp their style. As they say; a sale is a sale- calipers to you or full kits to someone else. That being said I do feel the consumer needs to be properly informed.

As for me...you are partially correct. However if you look close and search Google for example I go to great lengths to promote my own product as TCE/Wilwood. Why? Because I want my name to the products I produce and customers to know they are buying from me regardless of where their calipers come from. Like you, I've built and continue to build, a small company based on honest answers and customer service. I want people to know that I build kits for their needs and Wilwood is only one part of my product. I'm also constantly referred to by Wilwood for custom work- for me that's why I promote TCE kits. (see, a free business model!)

I also see no reason or profits in producing competing product with my own supplier. I was building a full on 12.2" MINI kit for example and pulled the plug immediately once I knew they were doing their own kit. We discussed options and they agreed to not do 13s if I did not do 12.2s. I was a win-win deal for all as I now offer one of the widest list of options for that platform. My choices don't prevent others from doing as they please. I do believe that if one wants to build kits for a car they need to put their own name and reputation on it.

As the title of the thread would imply; SCAM? No way. It is what it is. However it should not be confused with a true Wilwood kit. Nor are some of the others. Just understand what you are buying is key.



PS; they are not the same pads.... lol
(BSL6 uses a 7420 a 6r a 7416)

Knit-picking? Yes and too the point; a totally po'd customer who gets the wrong pads because he thinks he has one product and in fact has another. Then takes me to task for supplying him the wrong part and charging him a return and restocking fee etc. etc. etc. "No, you don't have a Wilwood kit sir, you have something else" is how it goes....

PSS; my reference to no four pot factory kits was that there are no Wilwood four pot front kits for the 350Z, factory meaning Wilwood. Sorry for any confusion.

 

Todd,

Nice post! I always like to hear about the collusion between businesses ( It's ok, I won't tell anyone). I don't doubt anything that you've said and I've seen first hand some of the kits that people are putting together for certain cars. I've also seen your kits first hand and I must say I see why you're still in business today. I can only imagine what kind of struggle you go through with people and misrepresentations and wrong parts.

I use the narrow body caliper made for the 1.10" thick rotors on the Stage II (6piston) kits. This narrow caliper uses the 7416 (ie. 150-8855K)

http://www.wilwood.com/Products/001-...-SL6/index.asp

The Stage I kit uses the 7420's (150-8854K). lol No love lost.

 

What's the new front bias calculations with each one of the front only kits?

 

I don't know much about your product other than what I'm seeing here, and am not a potential customer, since I'm quite pleased with my oem Brembos. However, this statement sounds like B.S. to me...

Explain to me why, within the past few years, all motorcycle manufacturers have gone to radially mounted calipers on all their sportbikes?


Regardless, people who buy this kit are obviously not interested in optimum performance. They're going for the look on the smallest budget possible. That's not to say it isn't a good product, but only time and many reviews can prove that.

 

The Megan kit is $3400 for ALL 4 corners as listed on their website. Recently i purchased one via the GB on my350z last month, should be here very soon.

 

You know...I thought about the pad later...yes if you are using (what I call the 6n) caliper the same 16mm pad is in service. I glanced at the BSL6 picture link and drew the conclusion based upon that. Yes I know; Wilwood does not have a clear pic of the 6n for any of us. Sorry for the confusion.

For the vast majority of users the tab vs radial mount argument is moot. The benefits to radial mount are; lighter caliper body, lighter brackets, ease of installation on varying rotor diameters, and a greater resistance to twist or deflection under high load. The benefits to the tab mount are; lower cost calipers, much lower cost brackets, ease of fit to a wider range of mount offset requirements (by way of simple spacers) and more interchange from manufacture to manufacture. (just about every major player offers a 3.5" mount caliper)

Everyone is happy now I hope.


jeff; your question on bias is to vague. Before one can state this clearly you'd need to know what pads are in use on both the front and rear of the car. You can claim "too much" front over the BBK with a higher Cf pad in the oem caliper. For the buyers of some monster pad that love them on the track but claim bias is not effected, they don't understand what's happening and why they may like their pads....From my research you'll find that most of the kits I know of run less than 5% change from stock.

 

Wow, this thread just got really interesting and informative.

Keep the information coming guys!

 

Whatever pads you used to build this kit. I would assume you have done the calculations. IMHO, unless you use the most aggressive pad up front and the least aggresive pad out back, you won't be able to affect the bias that much.

IMHO, if you are "only" affecting the bias 5%, that seems like alot of $ for the same or worse performance. Yes you gain fade resistance but on the street, I don't think that matters as much.

But it this way, look at all the oem brake upgrades. The early Gs/Zs had 11.x" rotors up front. In 05, they went to 2 piston caliper and a 12.6" rotor. Even with this small front upgrade, they increased the rear bias via a larger rotor. AGain with the oem Brembos, the rears are again upgraded.

So now with these huge 13" rotor and 4 piston caliper (larger torque arm and I assume more piston area), you advocate the use of the stock rear setup? How can the bias NOT be increased to the point of negatively affecting the bias?

And why develope a rear bbk if "it's not needed"?

 

I ran the Racing Brake 2-pc 13" 4-pot front and 13" oem caliper rear kit for about 18 months on my car and was very happy with it. The balance was good and the performance was amazing. In even some very hard conditions I never once had fade issues. I think this kit with something like their 13" slotted oem caliper upgrade would work very well.

 

Thanks to Alex@OnADimePBS & Todd@TCE for taking the time out to come on here and straighten out some questions for our community - Props to both of you guys.

 

Jeff,

As Todd explained the typical BBK shifts the bias 5% to the front without experiencing any negative effects. A typical car from the manufacturer already has a bias of atleast 5% or more in the front (Yes, having front bias does improve performance hence why manufacturers have them front biased OEM which you should have noticed by your OEM Brembo example).

For example, your car already has a 5% front bias. The Front BBK changes the bias to 10% in the front. Now you have a car with 10% front bias, this will NOT negatively effect your performance, it improves however there is a limit to this.

Now, one gets a rear BBK and shifts the bias back down another 5%. This has created a 5% front bias total while improving your overall braking. Basically, you've shifted your brakes to the next level while still keeping your same bias.

Now, one has to ask himself whether they take their car to these levels to even need brakes like this. Also, does the even braking justify the $1,300+ rear brakes and then factor in replacements etc. If you ever get a chance to ride in a car with Big Brakes, I highly encourage it! Anymore questions feel free to ask, hopefully i explained it easy enough to understand.

Alex

 

I already know the front/rear bias is towards the front. It's the RATIO that I'm interested in.

If you have some documenation or proof that increasing the bias up front 5% more then oem resulted in a better 60-0 stop time, please advise.

I also asked you for YOUR calculations on the two kits you are offering.

I'm not too sure where you get the 5% front bias. I'm almost positive that the oem front / rear bias is NOT 55% front / 45% rear.

The oem Brembo package is larger in front. Much less so than probably either one of your kits. YET the rears were upgraded also. Why? To maintain the PROPER front/rear bias RATIO. If anything, the oem ratio is TOO biased up front in order to prevent the rears from locking up. Increasing the front bias by any significant amount makes things worse IMHO. It just results in the fronts locking up that much sooner, increasing your braking dist. Yes, cars have abs systems to deal with this. But if you are just increasing the front bias to engage the abs system sooner, the net result is nil or worse stop performance.

Unless these calipers feature a smaller total piston area that stock to compensate for the larger rotors used. If you are using the same caliper/pistons in both kits, I don't see how the oem bias is maintained. At least one of the kits should be off (if not both).