Relentless Autosports Strut Bar - (NOT VRT!)
#751
03-26-2009, 12:32 AM
Just for background info, I have not ever done business with Scott nor do I intend to with all the controversy surrounding him at the moment but I also do not have bad blood with him.
But for the love of GOD, why are people defending the quality of a product that does not even fit! Had it been me, regardless of the part and brand, if it didn't fit right then it is garbage. How do you guys know that it is supposed to do what it claims to if it DOES NOT FIT? I would be so pissed to be waiting so long for a part and spend so much money on it when it DOES NOT FIT.
Also, to the guys I have heard who are bending things and modifying the part and/or hood to make the bar work, THAT IS NOT YOUR JOB TO MAKE A PART WORK otherwise you should have just made the part yourself. A strut bar is one of the simplest bolt on to any car and you should not have to modify anything for a BOLT ON PART!
I just ask everyone to be honest with themselves. If you were to buy, lets say an intake, and it didn't fit, would you really try to modify it to get it to work or are you like me and request a new one immediately or a full refund? Be real about it and I am not saying this because of the person who is selling this bar because this goes for anything you purchase in life. If it doesn't work as intended then its garbage. That goes for strut bars, sway bars, hershey bars, kit kat bars, blenders etc.
But for the love of GOD, why are people defending the quality of a product that does not even fit! Had it been me, regardless of the part and brand, if it didn't fit right then it is garbage. How do you guys know that it is supposed to do what it claims to if it DOES NOT FIT? I would be so pissed to be waiting so long for a part and spend so much money on it when it DOES NOT FIT.
Also, to the guys I have heard who are bending things and modifying the part and/or hood to make the bar work, THAT IS NOT YOUR JOB TO MAKE A PART WORK otherwise you should have just made the part yourself. A strut bar is one of the simplest bolt on to any car and you should not have to modify anything for a BOLT ON PART!
I just ask everyone to be honest with themselves. If you were to buy, lets say an intake, and it didn't fit, would you really try to modify it to get it to work or are you like me and request a new one immediately or a full refund? Be real about it and I am not saying this because of the person who is selling this bar because this goes for anything you purchase in life. If it doesn't work as intended then its garbage. That goes for strut bars, sway bars, hershey bars, kit kat bars, blenders etc.
#752
03-26-2009, 12:45 AM
And if they are also defending the product after I raked them over the coals, i'd be laughing my azz to the bank 
#753
03-26-2009, 12:51 AM
-Strut bar with terrible R & D
-Strut bar that does not fit
-Strut bar with amateur welds
-Strut bar that is now requiring you to modify the hood of your car to fit
Does it make a difference in handling on a car that had no strut bar to begin with? Probably...however for $500 there are wayyyy better options such as a better strut bar, sway bars, control arms, camber arms, toe arms etc. that all work the way that they are supposed to.
A sucker is born every minute boys lol. I have an exhaust that requires you to cut the whole bottom of your car out. Any takers at $1,000? Limited time only lol.
#754
03-26-2009, 12:54 AM
^^^^^ YOu guys make good points^^^^^ The nutthugging over here is at a higher level than I have ever seen. When a customer buys crap and turns around and say " Thanks you sir...may I have another" ....you know you have just showed up to a nut sack swinging convention....
This is for the sack swingers....By Dr Doug
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This is for the sack swingers....By Dr Doug
<embed src = "http://www.xtranormal.com/players/jwplayer.swf" width = "500" height = "350" allowscriptaccess = "always" allowfullscreen = "true" flashvars = "height=350&width=500&file=http://tmpvideo.xtranormal.com/highres/20090326/859729d6-19bc-11de-82fe-001b210ae39a_3.flv&image=http://tmpvideo.xtranormal.com/highres/20090326/859729d6-19bc-11de-82fe-001b210ae39a_3_0.jpg&searchbar=false&autostart=fal se"></embed>[/QUOTE]
#755
03-26-2009, 12:55 AM
Let me give you an example of how a good weld looks compared to a bad one. Notice how the welds in Exhibit B look like a nice smooth continuous set of fish scales. Now look at Exhibit A, looks like Sloth from the Goonies welded that up.
Exhibit A.
Exhibit B
Exhibit A.
Exhibit B
#756
03-26-2009, 01:03 AM
Good post Rick.....Here is a post from Tim who custom builds STB
The only upgrade most of you noobs on here with the biggest mouths know about is Cold Air Intake.....people are trying to help you and all you can do is WAAA WAAA!!! Most of you noobs that install a STB could never tell the difference. If you are not pushing the car enough to get the towers to shift....you will not be able to tell a car that had one on unless you open the hood.....Stop being such posters !!!!
You could always use this to convince the noobs....... the guy who is making these obviously does not have a clue how to fabricate. They are doing huge MIG welds, with alot of heat, on the .90 mild steel tube and .120 plate. It is warping the crap out of the metal. I bet he cant even put these back into the jigs when they are done.If they dont change their method for producing these, there will always be issues with fiment. The only solution is to fix these (not easy) ,make new ones or give back money. At least that is what you do if you are a stand-up type of business.
On a side note,mit is ridiculously over priced for mild steel. We just built a sick *** aluminum one from scratch for a super nice, old school 240Z and it was bad ***. We only charged the guy $250. I will post a picture when I get to the shop tomorrow.
On a side note,mit is ridiculously over priced for mild steel. We just built a sick *** aluminum one from scratch for a super nice, old school 240Z and it was bad ***. We only charged the guy $250. I will post a picture when I get to the shop tomorrow.
The only upgrade most of you noobs on here with the biggest mouths know about is Cold Air Intake.....people are trying to help you and all you can do is WAAA WAAA!!! Most of you noobs that install a STB could never tell the difference. If you are not pushing the car enough to get the towers to shift....you will not be able to tell a car that had one on unless you open the hood.....Stop being such posters !!!!
Last edited by XKR; 03-26-2009 at 01:12 AM.
#757
03-26-2009, 01:54 AM
Not fitting issues aside.
Suspecting a hidden motive to hate on Scott and putting that aside.
I feel the frustration of all those that paid good money, spend the time to do the install only to find it it doesn't fit. Hopefully you end up with a proper outcome where the seller fixes things for you.
Hoever, on the subject of the merit's of worth, I do not agree that this bar, or that ANY STB offered for the G35 to date leverages meaningfull level's of resistance. I do not own a STB for this reason.
As I've posted before
Not to be difficult or anything, but,.....
The VRT bar is a design compromise because of a difficult installation enviroment. Given that I don't see the bar as passing a critical anyasis by any engineer (see conversation below from a engineer in the motorsports field) that doesn't have a vested profit motive or get's parinoid that anyone is ignoring the degree hanging on the wall, I don't see any review holding much weight, however well intented or thought out and without any intention's of offending ANYONE, something I don't have a desire to do. I'll point out that pretty much every single coilover install tends to receive good reviews no matter the brand. How it "feels" doesn't carry any weight for me, only thing that would remotely get me interested is seeing the bars mounting legs on a test jig that measures how well it can resist force and not flex.
.
Suspecting a hidden motive to hate on Scott and putting that aside.
I feel the frustration of all those that paid good money, spend the time to do the install only to find it it doesn't fit. Hopefully you end up with a proper outcome where the seller fixes things for you.
Hoever, on the subject of the merit's of worth, I do not agree that this bar, or that ANY STB offered for the G35 to date leverages meaningfull level's of resistance. I do not own a STB for this reason.
As I've posted before
Not to be difficult or anything, but,.....
The VRT bar is a design compromise because of a difficult installation enviroment. Given that I don't see the bar as passing a critical anyasis by any engineer (see conversation below from a engineer in the motorsports field) that doesn't have a vested profit motive or get's parinoid that anyone is ignoring the degree hanging on the wall, I don't see any review holding much weight, however well intented or thought out and without any intention's of offending ANYONE, something I don't have a desire to do. I'll point out that pretty much every single coilover install tends to receive good reviews no matter the brand. How it "feels" doesn't carry any weight for me, only thing that would remotely get me interested is seeing the bars mounting legs on a test jig that measures how well it can resist force and not flex.
Originally Posted by Resolute
James,
Happy to give my .02 on this. I think you already have this figured out, but the design is flawed for the purpose of reducing chassis flex and improving load transfer between the front suspension members. At CSU there is a chassis regidity tester that is used in conjunction with their prototype racer designs for the Motorsport Engineering program. One of the things considered for GT class cars was the obligatory strut tower bar that has become very common in production units. As I'm sure you know, three fixed members are ideal, with two members extending either fore or aft to the bulkhead, depending on the configuration. The mitsu EVO has a good design for this. However, in an ideal situation for controlling lateral loads, the engine would also become a stressed member of the chassis. Aside from this, the strut bar is very limited in its benefit. in fact, reinforcing the front bulkhead with additional welds and bracing around the engine is the next best plan. Opera Performance executed this on its 350Z and so did NISMO with the GT-R Z-tune. The strut bar to be effective at all should be fixed in position, and not able to flex or move in any plane. This design you posted, like a lot of aftermarket bars, violates this rule. You can see the center bar is not attached to the ends in a fixed location, but by a bolt that allows motion around it. Plus, the odd mounting points offer little improvement- if any. The strut bar is nice to prevent flex in the damper/spring mounting area, and load transfer can be assisted via this bar. However, it is really only as effective as the rigidity of the lower suspension members that control wheel motion. If the lower members are not rigid enough to compliment the bar, then energy is wasted. Hence making the engine a stressed component is the ideal as it offers a simple way to tie the lower members together in a similiar fashion as the strut bar does for the upper members and damper/spring mount.
Long answer, but nothing is ever simple in my mind and I like to try and cover all the bases and answer possible questions before they come up. This tends to make more questions though, so let me know if there are any. I would not buy the bar, and I think you have the same reservations I wrote of. Take care,
Will
Happy to give my .02 on this. I think you already have this figured out, but the design is flawed for the purpose of reducing chassis flex and improving load transfer between the front suspension members. At CSU there is a chassis regidity tester that is used in conjunction with their prototype racer designs for the Motorsport Engineering program. One of the things considered for GT class cars was the obligatory strut tower bar that has become very common in production units. As I'm sure you know, three fixed members are ideal, with two members extending either fore or aft to the bulkhead, depending on the configuration. The mitsu EVO has a good design for this. However, in an ideal situation for controlling lateral loads, the engine would also become a stressed member of the chassis. Aside from this, the strut bar is very limited in its benefit. in fact, reinforcing the front bulkhead with additional welds and bracing around the engine is the next best plan. Opera Performance executed this on its 350Z and so did NISMO with the GT-R Z-tune. The strut bar to be effective at all should be fixed in position, and not able to flex or move in any plane. This design you posted, like a lot of aftermarket bars, violates this rule. You can see the center bar is not attached to the ends in a fixed location, but by a bolt that allows motion around it. Plus, the odd mounting points offer little improvement- if any. The strut bar is nice to prevent flex in the damper/spring mounting area, and load transfer can be assisted via this bar. However, it is really only as effective as the rigidity of the lower suspension members that control wheel motion. If the lower members are not rigid enough to compliment the bar, then energy is wasted. Hence making the engine a stressed component is the ideal as it offers a simple way to tie the lower members together in a similiar fashion as the strut bar does for the upper members and damper/spring mount.
Long answer, but nothing is ever simple in my mind and I like to try and cover all the bases and answer possible questions before they come up. This tends to make more questions though, so let me know if there are any. I would not buy the bar, and I think you have the same reservations I wrote of. Take care,
Will
#758
03-26-2009, 02:30 AM
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Last edited by Rickdogg; 03-26-2009 at 07:48 AM.
#760
03-26-2009, 03:19 AM
Wow. Just wow.
Let me clarify this right now: I am not Scott's defender. This is solely my opinion.
All of you bashers, great job of cluttering up this thread.
Yes, you have the right to post since it is a public forum, but your posts help NO ONE.
Hopefully I can get an admin to clean up this thread by deleting all the posts that have nothing to do with this bar.
Scott called me earlier and told me what went wrong: the party that actually manufactured some of the bars messed up -- the bars for FI applications (such as Canadian's) were made first. The regular bars for non-FI cars were made afterwards. According to Scott, the manufacturer did not correctly set the jig for the normal cars for the brackets of the first few bars. I am one of the unlucky individuals who received such a bracket.
Sure, it sucks, now I have to send it back and wait for the correct one to be sent. However, this problem does not constitute a wave of bashing to ensue in this thread, especially since the bashing is directed towards a man who has no access to these forums anymore [for reasons unknown to me, but that is BESIDES THE POINT].
So please, I KINDLY ask that all the bashing stops here. I believe the only posts that should be here are those pertaining to the bar -- problems, reviews, etc.
Let me clarify this right now: I am not Scott's defender. This is solely my opinion.
All of you bashers, great job of cluttering up this thread.
Yes, you have the right to post since it is a public forum, but your posts help NO ONE.
Hopefully I can get an admin to clean up this thread by deleting all the posts that have nothing to do with this bar.
Scott called me earlier and told me what went wrong: the party that actually manufactured some of the bars messed up -- the bars for FI applications (such as Canadian's) were made first. The regular bars for non-FI cars were made afterwards. According to Scott, the manufacturer did not correctly set the jig for the normal cars for the brackets of the first few bars. I am one of the unlucky individuals who received such a bracket.
Sure, it sucks, now I have to send it back and wait for the correct one to be sent. However, this problem does not constitute a wave of bashing to ensue in this thread, especially since the bashing is directed towards a man who has no access to these forums anymore [for reasons unknown to me, but that is BESIDES THE POINT].
So please, I KINDLY ask that all the bashing stops here. I believe the only posts that should be here are those pertaining to the bar -- problems, reviews, etc.
#761
03-26-2009, 03:22 AM
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These are sad days indeed.
People buying STB's for $500 that doesn't fit, is made from inferior material, welded with inferior methods, and supported by a moderator, a law student, and a business who doesn't have an actual physical location or land line.
Somehow this is acceptable to some.
Somehow there is rebuttal from those who have allegiances to Scott or have bought the product and feel that they should defend their purchase (even while others (20% now?) are having to modify oem parts to make it work.
Folks: this is very simple. It's a STB. Regardless of what anyone tells you, it should fit 99.9% of the time, in 99.9% of these chassis. If you don't believe me, please search this and every other G35 specific forum. Locate posts/threads for GT Spec, Stillen, ARC and/or any other manufacturer that makes a STB for this application. Demonstrate to us that this is as common of a problem with other manufacturers as it is for RA's (or whoever makes it for him that he badges as his own). If you cannot demonstrate empirically, that other manufacturers have these same issues at the same rate as this product, then you are left with the glaring conclusion: this product is poorly made, fits poorly, and is therefore crap. Any other conclusion then is from either emotion or obvious allegiance to Scott/RA, and therefore is neither in the best interest of the community or industry as a whole.
Darren [LOL @ the same 2 people (one of which is a moderator!!) doing "quality control" for a company who's "owner" is banned from this forum -- and yet this is somehow not seen as a conflict of interest!!!]
People buying STB's for $500 that doesn't fit, is made from inferior material, welded with inferior methods, and supported by a moderator, a law student, and a business who doesn't have an actual physical location or land line.
Somehow this is acceptable to some.
Somehow there is rebuttal from those who have allegiances to Scott or have bought the product and feel that they should defend their purchase (even while others (20% now?) are having to modify oem parts to make it work.
Folks: this is very simple. It's a STB. Regardless of what anyone tells you, it should fit 99.9% of the time, in 99.9% of these chassis. If you don't believe me, please search this and every other G35 specific forum. Locate posts/threads for GT Spec, Stillen, ARC and/or any other manufacturer that makes a STB for this application. Demonstrate to us that this is as common of a problem with other manufacturers as it is for RA's (or whoever makes it for him that he badges as his own). If you cannot demonstrate empirically, that other manufacturers have these same issues at the same rate as this product, then you are left with the glaring conclusion: this product is poorly made, fits poorly, and is therefore crap. Any other conclusion then is from either emotion or obvious allegiance to Scott/RA, and therefore is neither in the best interest of the community or industry as a whole.
Darren [LOL @ the same 2 people (one of which is a moderator!!) doing "quality control" for a company who's "owner" is banned from this forum -- and yet this is somehow not seen as a conflict of interest!!!]
#762
03-26-2009, 03:37 AM
Folks: this is very simple. It's a STB. Regardless of what anyone tells you, it should fit 99.9% of the time, in 99.9% of these chassis. If you don't believe me, please search this and every other G35 specific forum. Locate posts/threads for GT Spec, Stillen, ARC and/or any other manufacturer that makes a STB for this application. Demonstrate to us that this is as common of a problem with other manufacturers as it is for RA's (or whoever makes it for him that he badges as his own). If you cannot demonstrate empirically, that other manufacturers have these same issues at the same rate as this product, then you are left with the glaring conclusion: this product is poorly made, fits poorly, and is therefore crap. Any other conclusion then is from either emotion or obvious allegiance to Scott/RA, and therefore is neither in the best interest of the community or industry as a whole.
The Circuit sports bar also rubs on the hood with no real method of correction.
Does that justify the problems with the RA STB? No.
Does it give an indication of the tight clearances in the g35 engine bay? Yes.
#764
03-26-2009, 07:39 AM
I dont get where you are coming from....Your STB was made by GT SPEC....a good company that knows how to make support bars. From what Redash has stated...the VRT version is around the same as the GT Spec version and the reason why there is no fitment issues. The OP is talking about the STB's that are now made by Scott/RA and ex-partner of VRT which in the pictures are poorly made...and the reason why people are now having major problems....
I've had strut bars on all my cars, and I know exactly what you mean about not being able to tell the difference with or without that strut bar installed.
#765
03-26-2009, 07:51 AM
like others have said, this should be the last handling mod to do. a good set of coilovers or a set of sway bars will improve the handling 10x more than any strut bar
there is a reason infiniti didnt put one in the first place
