SGP Racing Forged Pistons
#1
SGP Racing Forged Pistons
I had a quick question about pistons. I noticed that SGP made two types of pistons, one with a compression ratio of 8.5:1 and one with 11.5:1. It stated that the 8.5:1 was better for FI while 11.5:1 was better for N/A.
How is that so? I thought the whole point of FI was to increase compression of the air, to force more air into each piston. Why would you want to force all that air into there and have a piston which only compresses it by 8.5?
Any insight would be helpful. Thanks guys.
'04 G35 6MT Ivory Pearl
K&N Drop In / Stillen Grounding Kit
Borla Headers/Dual Cat-Back Exhaust
Nismo Front Bumper/Side Skirts
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How is that so? I thought the whole point of FI was to increase compression of the air, to force more air into each piston. Why would you want to force all that air into there and have a piston which only compresses it by 8.5?
Any insight would be helpful. Thanks guys.
'04 G35 6MT Ivory Pearl
K&N Drop In / Stillen Grounding Kit
Borla Headers/Dual Cat-Back Exhaust
Nismo Front Bumper/Side Skirts
Impul Rear Bumper/Spoiler
AirSplat.com for AirSoft Guns!
#2
Re: SGP Racing Forged Pistons
Does it have to do with the amount of lift provided by the upgraded camshafts? You need more clearance?
'04 G35 6MT Ivory Pearl
K&N Drop In / Stillen Grounding Kit
Borla Headers/Dual Cat-Back Exhaust
Nismo Front Bumper/Side Skirts
Impul Rear Bumper/Spoiler
AirSplat.com for AirSoft Guns!
'04 G35 6MT Ivory Pearl
K&N Drop In / Stillen Grounding Kit
Borla Headers/Dual Cat-Back Exhaust
Nismo Front Bumper/Side Skirts
Impul Rear Bumper/Spoiler
AirSplat.com for AirSoft Guns!
#3
Re: SGP Racing Forged Pistons
you want to lower the compression so you can boost more. With high compression, the heads can only take so much boost. But once you lower compression you can increase your boost by much more, especially with forged rods and pistons
g35s 5at, premium, willow, premium, dad's, spoiled suburban kid
g35s 5at, premium, willow, premium, dad's, spoiled suburban kid
#4
Re: SGP Racing Forged Pistons
High compression and high boost creates tremendous cylinder pressures and temperatures causing detonation.. ...
..when u turbo an engine you dont need high compression because the turbo creates the pressure in the cylinder..but if you go the NA route then higher compression pistons are key to makin power.. compression ratios depend on few things..your tuning and boost and fuel quality.. the more you boost you run the lower the compression should be..also if your engine is well tuned you might get away with a little higher compression but i wouldnt recommend going over 9.5:1 if you gonna turbo the motor.. also one tip if you dont have a tt setup then dont get the pistons unless you gonna do it all at once cuz reducing compression ratios on na motor takes away power...
..when u turbo an engine you dont need high compression because the turbo creates the pressure in the cylinder..but if you go the NA route then higher compression pistons are key to makin power.. compression ratios depend on few things..your tuning and boost and fuel quality.. the more you boost you run the lower the compression should be..also if your engine is well tuned you might get away with a little higher compression but i wouldnt recommend going over 9.5:1 if you gonna turbo the motor.. also one tip if you dont have a tt setup then dont get the pistons unless you gonna do it all at once cuz reducing compression ratios on na motor takes away power...
#6
Re: SGP Racing Forged Pistons
low compression pistons would be good for a super-charger, and then you could increase the amount you boost. However, if you are happy with the power you have now, and have no intentions of increasing your boost pressure, keep your normal pistons, unless youre unsure of your engine reliability. Lowering compression with the same amount of boost would lower your power, but increase the reliability of your motor.
g35s 5at, premium, willow, premium, dad's, spoiled suburban kid
g35s 5at, premium, willow, premium, dad's, spoiled suburban kid
#7
Re: SGP Racing Forged Pistons
Well I want to supercharge my car, I would assume that's when I would get the pistons. So.. if I got the pistons with no forced induction it would lower my HP but increase reliability? Anyplace I can read up on these? They seem like a good mod to do when I get my supercharger installed. If I were to run the same boost with the pistons then I could with the stock pistons, would it increase reliability? Anyone know how much these things run?
Thanks - Joey Avino
Thanks - Joey Avino
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#8
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: SGP Racing Forged Pistons
I hate to try to get on you, but you need to seriously read a good book on forced induction if you don't know why the compression is different. Try to pick up a copy of Corky Bell's book on Turbocharging and it will help you understand a lot. Compression is an extemely basic concept. You have 2 major factors to deal with: cylinder pressure and detonation. The lower the compression, the greater the resistance to detonation. Also, the lower the compression, the less the cylinder pressure. Try running even 12 psi on pump gas on an 11.5:1 motor and kiss those new pistons goodbye. With forced induction, the amount of air volume is determined by the supercharger or turbocharger. The air charged in FI is already compressed before it ever enters a combustion chamber. You are compression it further inside the cylinder. In an NA engine it is solely determined by the ability of the engine to draw in the air. They are 2 entirely different principles. On an NA engine, every point of copression is good for 10% more power. On an FI motor since the turbo or SC flows the same amount of air into the cylinder, regardless of the compression ratio; there is a much lower difference in power between compression ratios. The only downside to the lower compression is what happens when you are not in boost. At lower rpms, particularly with a turbo when it is not spooled, the engine is running as essentually a low compression NA motor. It makes the engine spool a turbo slower because of the lower air volume.
If you are looking at pistons, they are going to run $600-700 a set. Keep in mind that the engine has to be removed, completely rebuilt and reinstalled. Figure on about $3000 for the rebuild from a good builder. It is only realistic in doing this if you are going a lot more serious than basic bolt-ons on an NA. High compression pistons aren't needed without getting a set of cams, springs and headwork for an NA(figure another $2000). This type of motor could easily push over 300 hp at the wheels(350+ flywheel).
The pistons though are not the biggest weakness in the VQ35DE engine. The most common failures are the connecting rod bolts(far too small) and the connecting rods(too thin to support over 450hp). If you are going to open the motor, a set of rods are a necessity before getting the pistons Figure $1000 for a good set of Crower or Pauter rods. If you are looking at going boosted, there is no point in going into the motor if you are just going to by an off the shelf SC kit. The power levels from those kits are designed for stock internals. Even a couple of pulley size changes isn't enough to justify going inside. Start looking at things like the Greddy TT kit than can support over 650 hp on a low compression motor with the right amount of fuel as a justification. There really isn't much of a purpose in building a motor to support 800 hp if it going to never see 400 hp.
04' G35 Coupe(finally in the garage)
6-sp Diamond Graphite/Willow w/Premium
If you are looking at pistons, they are going to run $600-700 a set. Keep in mind that the engine has to be removed, completely rebuilt and reinstalled. Figure on about $3000 for the rebuild from a good builder. It is only realistic in doing this if you are going a lot more serious than basic bolt-ons on an NA. High compression pistons aren't needed without getting a set of cams, springs and headwork for an NA(figure another $2000). This type of motor could easily push over 300 hp at the wheels(350+ flywheel).
The pistons though are not the biggest weakness in the VQ35DE engine. The most common failures are the connecting rod bolts(far too small) and the connecting rods(too thin to support over 450hp). If you are going to open the motor, a set of rods are a necessity before getting the pistons Figure $1000 for a good set of Crower or Pauter rods. If you are looking at going boosted, there is no point in going into the motor if you are just going to by an off the shelf SC kit. The power levels from those kits are designed for stock internals. Even a couple of pulley size changes isn't enough to justify going inside. Start looking at things like the Greddy TT kit than can support over 650 hp on a low compression motor with the right amount of fuel as a justification. There really isn't much of a purpose in building a motor to support 800 hp if it going to never see 400 hp.
04' G35 Coupe(finally in the garage)
6-sp Diamond Graphite/Willow w/Premium
#9
Re: SGP Racing Forged Pistons
good write up man. but from what i have seen it is going to cost a lot more then that for rods and pistons. most have been selling for a grand. So you are look at 2 grand on parts then 3 grand on install and then there is still a lot more work to do. Check out the forums at my350z.com under the F/I section there are guys who have put 10 grand into the engine and seem to really know what there talking about. and who really need 800 HP
<a href="mailto:Carlos3186@hotmail....otmail.com</a>
<a href="mailto:Carlos3186@hotmail....otmail.com</a>
#10
Re: SGP Racing Forged Pistons
Damn Loren you know your stuff pretty well.
What it basically comes down to is that you need lower compression pistons if you want to boost more than those turbo/sc kits come stock.
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2003 CB Coupe 6MT
Z-tube
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What it basically comes down to is that you need lower compression pistons if you want to boost more than those turbo/sc kits come stock.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
2003 CB Coupe 6MT
Z-tube
Stillen Hi-flow
#11
Re: SGP Racing Forged Pistons
wow, this is really good info!
so let's say you took the cost of a Greddy TT ($8000 for parts + install)
and put that towards NA upgrades... what could you get?
I'm guessing the end resuld would also be much more reliable and require less maintenance etc. right?
and althought you can't get the kind of gains a TT will get you, the power will come smooth and even?
so let's say you took the cost of a Greddy TT ($8000 for parts + install)
and put that towards NA upgrades... what could you get?
I'm guessing the end resuld would also be much more reliable and require less maintenance etc. right?
and althought you can't get the kind of gains a TT will get you, the power will come smooth and even?
#12
Re: SGP Racing Forged Pistons
Well.. I just wanted to upgrade my internals because when I get my supercharger I want to run around the boost they give to be safe with stock which I believe to be 5-7psi. Make my car in between 400-450hp. If I have the extra cash, the rods and pistons would be worth it for reliability. I don't want to get my SC at 40,000k (I have 15k now) and then at like 80k have it blow my engine up.
Thanks - Joey Avino
Thanks - Joey Avino
#13
Re: SGP Racing Forged Pistons
By the way, all your price questions can be answered by going to their website:
http://www.sgpracing.com
They've done all of my upgrades for me. Great, extremely knowledgeable people and wonderful to do business with.
'03 AT Sedan | Silver/Willow | Sport | Premium | Aerokit w/Spoiler | Nav | Injen CAI | UR Pulley | Tein Flex w/EDFC | Stillen Rotors | Cusco Sways | TS ECU | Stillen Exhaust
http://www.sgpracing.com
They've done all of my upgrades for me. Great, extremely knowledgeable people and wonderful to do business with.
'03 AT Sedan | Silver/Willow | Sport | Premium | Aerokit w/Spoiler | Nav | Injen CAI | UR Pulley | Tein Flex w/EDFC | Stillen Rotors | Cusco Sways | TS ECU | Stillen Exhaust
#15
Guest
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Re: SGP Racing Forged Pistons
For the power range you want to run, you will be fine with stock internals. People are blowing their motors with the superchargers becasue the fuel isn't tuned right. I've seen several dynoes with A/F ratios in the 13-14.5:1 range under boost. Detonation is very possible if it isn't richer. The part where you have to cautious is in the tuning the fuel. IF you have it installed and tuned right, you will never have to worry about the internals. I ran a Vortech V1 supercharger on my Maxima for 3 years on the stock 10.0:1 compression ratio. I was running 6.5 psi(stock pulley) to 9.5 psi(3 sizes smaller pulley) without having any problems and needing race gas. My A/F was 12.1-12.3 across the entire powerband.
The variable pump on the ATI seems to put the A/F all over the map and I have yet to see one that is tuned right in all rpm bands. While I like ATI, this is making me think twice about their kit. It isn't an issue with their supercharger, it is the fuel tuning. If I were to go ATI, I would get it without the fuel pump and go Greddy E-manage instead. Now some people are getting the Vortechs on their car. An auto sedan put out almost 360 rwhp with only an exhaust in addition with a perfectly flat and linear fuel curve at 12.0:1. Fuel tuning is a lot easier with the Vortech. With that tuning, he will never have a problem as long as he runs premium gas.
04' G35 Coupe(finally in the garage)
6-sp Diamond Graphite/Willow w/Premium
The variable pump on the ATI seems to put the A/F all over the map and I have yet to see one that is tuned right in all rpm bands. While I like ATI, this is making me think twice about their kit. It isn't an issue with their supercharger, it is the fuel tuning. If I were to go ATI, I would get it without the fuel pump and go Greddy E-manage instead. Now some people are getting the Vortechs on their car. An auto sedan put out almost 360 rwhp with only an exhaust in addition with a perfectly flat and linear fuel curve at 12.0:1. Fuel tuning is a lot easier with the Vortech. With that tuning, he will never have a problem as long as he runs premium gas.
04' G35 Coupe(finally in the garage)
6-sp Diamond Graphite/Willow w/Premium