How does a person get the most bang for their buck in attempting to increase power?

Based on my personal experience and that of others I have read about, bolt-on's are just not very competitive from a cost-per-HP standpoint. Even though mods have made my car run much better, this has been an eye opener for me.

My calculations (using APPROXIMATES for clarity) indicate roughly the following cost/benefit ratios:

Bolt on mods: $150/HP
Turbos (installed) $45/HP
Superchargers (installed) $40/HP

Sure, there are some issues involved with living with FI. But anyone starting with a stock vehicle would be wise to thoroughly consider a turbo or SC before they start bolting $$$ on their car!

 

Huge gains with FI, but.....
One cost that you have not factored is the cost for posible engine repairs down the road with FI.
Not saying FI is wrong just that there are some potential added costs.

<font color=blue>04 Silverstone G35, 5AT, Prem, Aero
ES100 225/45-18 front 245/40-18 rear
Borla TD, Z-tube, Eibach, 35%Tints</font color=blue>

 

I'm not sure your math is on.

For $1300 you can have 20 HP at the flywheel with a cat, plenum and Z tube. That's $65 per pony.

I'm guessing a properly installed SC is in the $9K-$10K neighborhood for around 120-150 safe HP? Not sure on that, but if that's correct then it's almost about the same cost.

You're mixing up "eye opener" with "bang for your buck". No, 20 HP is not eye opening, but it is a good bang for your buck if you're comparing them in a linear fashion.

I am wise, and I did consider it. And when I thought of it I reckoned it's a matter of:

1) Worth/value/affordability (varies subjectively for each of us)
2) Your mission (varies for each of us)
3) Your tolerance for risk/reward (varies for each of us)

I have $2000 laying around not doing anything and a couple of weekends to turn my own wrench, and I'm willing to live with the risk of an air leak or busted O2 sensor, and to me that's worth it.

I don't have $7-$10K laying around, nor am I comfortable with the risk/reward or the time investment (if you can call something that depreceiates an investment, I don't).

I am NOT ******* the FI path, rather pointing out the actual dollar cost per HP (if I'm right about the FI costs) and reminding that for some people the NA path is sufficient.

2004.5 Coupe/5AT/Ivory/Everything but front spoiler/Nismo CAI/Crawford V5/Crawford Cats

 

For what it's worth I'll give a simple illustration...

Z-Tube $80 (incl. shipping)
JWT Popcharger $120 (incl. shipping)
Crawford Plenum $435 (incl. shipping, powder coat, and core return)
Crawford Cats (incl. shipping $465)

That adds up to $1100 (incl. shipping)

Now I chose the RT Cats for $510 (incl. shipping), but if I had it to do over with I probably would have opted for the Crawford Cats and skipped out on the JWT Popcharger. The same gains will come from a K&N panel filter for ~$50 and you will keep the benefits of the stock air box.

So to summarize "Neffster's" recommendation...

Z-Tube, Crawford Plenum, Crawford Cats, K&N Panel Filter will run you $1030.00 (incl. shipping) and will gain you approx 20 bhp. If you leave $70.00 for the cat install and do the plenum, Z-Tube, K&N install yourself (super easy to do with all of the on line help) you're at $1100.00 for an extra 20bhp.

That's only $55.00/bhp, which is not too shabby IMO. Also there are other mods, if you're willing to take the risk, like UR Crank Pulley, Light Weight Flywheel and Clutch, etc... that will all add some more hp for a slightly higher figure.

It really depends on what you want. Me, I did the research (listened to Eagle1) and went for airflow "balance" getting rid of the biggest bottlenecks first. IMO this is the best "bang for the buck" there is.

Also, for the sedan owners... an exhaust will do wonders, along with the TS ECU upgrade, so who knows if there is a better combo for them than the one I chose. If more people do group dyno days with stock cars as baselines (preferably the same tranny type) we'd know more about how different mods work together than we currently do.

To those who are willing to take the time, make the effort, spend the money and post the data, "THANKS!"

<font color=blue>The above statements are only my take on the issue. If you disagree with anything I typed then you are 100% right!</font color=blue>

 

Your 3) "tolerance for risk/reward (varies for each of us" is an excellent point, appreciated but unsaid in my post. This could ultimately be a deciding factor for many.

Also, I was looking at rwhp gains and averages for bolt-on mods, not necessarily the most efficient.

I priced a Vortec SC for around $5K installed, providing roughly 100 - 120 rwhp and a turbo at about $10K installed providing up to about 200 rwhp. I know that other numbers could be used, but these are ballpark.

The eye opener for me was the size of the outlay of cash for bolt-ons and not many horsepower gained, that's all..

Further, FI just puts the car in an entirely different class than is possible with bolt-ons. I don't think anyone, upon driving their car the first time after a FI install would say, "I'm not sure if I can tell any difference."

Perhaps not many of us could swallow that price for a turbo, but a SC is much more within reach, especially if it becomes the initial target.

 

Keep in mind than when you install SC you WILL want to upgrade stock exhaust system, which is pretty restrictive for stock engine, per other posts.

***04 G35s 5AT/Sport***
***04 Volvo XC90 T6***

 

"I don't think anyone, upon driving their car the first time after a FI install would say, "I'm not sure if I can tell any difference." "

LOL, Now THATS a fact! 400 HP is definitely a neck snapper . I'd love to ride in one someday, but I don't see that happening in Memphis .


2004.5 Coupe/5AT/Ivory/Everything but front spoiler/Nismo CAI/Crawford V5/Crawford Cats

 

i was reading down and planning on typing what motop posted. People who go with f/i would usually also with to have performance cats exhaust and possibly headers. I know that if i upgraded i would do all of them. I dont know why people go back to the stock plenum when they go f/i. I would imagine that this added airflow will continue to help (if not MORE than before), but i guess that if that were the case epople wouldnt stick to the stock plenum.

2004 Black on Black g coupe 6spd.... aluminum pedals, clear corners, z tube, and pop charger. soon to have 19" volk gt-c's and PIAA xtreme whites in the clearance and corners
Houston Texas

 

I guess it's a given you have to get the ECU reprogrammed with FI, but there isn't always a place nearby where one can do that.

I believe, from calling Stillen, they reprogram some things. I am under the impression that the system is designed to work with stock components, any changes would require adjustments, otherwise troubles could arise.

These are just my thoughts from very scant research. Intuitively, without custom programming, changing the intake and exhaust could be problematic.

 

I am putting down 342.5 at the rear (Ford Mustang Dyno). Close to 400 hp up front. Mod's tally - $1,600.00 (Nitrous Setup). $1,400.00 for Cats, Exhaust, Intake. Essentially $3,000.00 for an extra 115-125 hp.

B. Silver| Loaded 20" Iforged Rims - Flux| Pop-Charger | Z-Tube | GroundingGear Equipped | Borla TD | "Custom" Stereo - JL/Focal/Clarion \ Zex 100 Shot / Purge Light - Crawford Cats

 

WOT [with NOX] doesn't work well in a road race with curves but for the street or drags of course.
Operating costs per second include your time [Saturday?] and mileage for weekly [daily] recharges?

Since the tranny [AT] is torque limited at 333 lb/ft, a 50 HP [43 lb/ft @ 6000] shot might have decent longevity as the torque addition would double [43> 86 lb/ft at 3,000 rpm]

 

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

Operating costs per second include your time [Saturday?] and mileage for weekly [daily] recharges?

<hr></blockquote>

Sat. have been free - (Friends). $10 - 20 buck depending where you live I am assuming for an all day "Test & Tune" (if I am referring to your first question correctly?

Mileage for weekly recharges? Filling up the bottle?? 2.89 a lb. so around $29 total for a 10lb bottle. (Only using it when I want to play) IE: Racing another car. Give me about 3-5 Full Q. mile runs. I have had this last bottle last about 3 weeks. (Only have raced a BMW R 1150 R since the last Fill a few weeks ago). 70mph-140mph race. (this was fun).

I have registered 5 different torque values; (same day) (369.5, 371.5, 376.2, 372.5, 368.5) on the Ford Mustang Dyno Jet. All runs were in 4th gear. (Fans were directed at engine with hood open) Temp. aprx 85, Humidity 43%. Start was aprx. 2500rpm.

We had run 2 quarter miles runs on the dyno with a load being put to the rear. (Reg. weight at 3400lbs). I had wrapped first gear out so fast that it would not shift into second gear. Was kind of amusing. Hit the fuel cut-off and I backed off of it after it was jamming the redline and rev-limitor. Tried it again in MM. NP. Time it correctly and works great. Pulled a terrible 60ft time. around 2.61 and still managed around a 13.58 at 104mph. At the track, with 20's on it I pulled a 2.32 60ft, 13.51 at 105. I have not tried it with the 18's on it.

"Front wheel idle" on the Dyno Jet - possible reason for the non 1st -2nd shift. No movement with "not enough" "real time" load.

I have ran the car at the track on on the street and have had no problems shifting into 2nd gear. (auto & mm) (Torque possibly could be under the limit as you were advising, letting it shift into second)? Maybe it has decreased under "real time" load on the street?

Current shot is 100HP. - No2 (ZEX, Wet Kit) A/F, EGT, used in combo with a 10lb & 2lb bottle (maximizer kit) (around 1000psi at the solenoid when warm). (Purge kit, 1 step colder Iridium IX plugs used in conjuction with the kit).

B. Silver| Loaded 20" Iforged Rims - Flux| Pop-Charger | Z-Tube | GroundingGear Equipped | Borla TD | "Custom" Stereo - JL/Focal/Clarion \ Zex 100 Shot / Purge Light - Crawford Cats

 

Are you letting it spray while the auto shifts? If not, what is your technique to avoid that?

2004.5 Coupe/5AT/Ivory/Everything but front spoiler/Nismo CAI/Crawford V5/Crawford Cats

 

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

Are you letting it spray while the auto shifts? If not, what is your technique to avoid that?

<hr></blockquote>

1.) Toggle the arm switch off/on (TPS activated) only will work at WOT. (Easy to do with an AT5. Kinda' like your own customized "window switch").

2.) Use MM mode, and hit the shifts around 5k, b/c it will not shift until 500rpm more b/c it wraps out very fast. (Based on my experience).

3.) Just keep your foot to the floor and let it shift for you, generally "around" and after it hits 6500. No problems when I have had it on the street or strip.

Hope this helps.


B. Silver| Loaded 20" Iforged Rims - Flux| Pop-Charger | Z-Tube | GroundingGear Equipped | Borla TD | "Custom" Stereo - JL/Focal/Clarion \ Zex 100 Shot / Purge Light - Crawford Cats