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Timing chain not issue, p0011 and p0021 and slow acceleration causes? (Long write up)

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  #16  
Old 10-19-2019, 05:59 PM
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Well I'm about out of options. Try using the graphing mode from the main menu rather than the dashboard mode. I don't expect it will have any difference but it might.
 
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Old 10-19-2019, 06:00 PM
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Time to pull the cam actuators and manually apply voltage while you watch it move.
 
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Old 10-19-2019, 06:10 PM
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Originally Posted by cleric670@gmail
Time to pull the cam actuators and manually apply voltage while you watch it move.
Alright I'll attempt to do this next week see if anything gives.
 
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Old 10-19-2019, 07:51 PM
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You can also check their resistance. There should be about 7-7.5 ohms of resistance between the two terminals at 68 degrees. Then check each terminal to ground and their should NOT be any continuity.
 
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Old 10-22-2019, 05:26 PM
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So good news from mechanic, apparently BOTH of the valve covers are leaking and the driver side one really bad, and some of the sparkplug seals are leaking oil too. This is probably why both p0011 and p0021 codes appeared; the oil pressure is very low in both valve covers from all these leaks. I also occasionally hear pinging/detonation where the sparkplug leaks are located so I think the leaking sparkplug seal(s) are at fault too. The sparkplugs were recently changed however so I do not need to worry about replacing them. The solenoids have not arrived yet but I am going to replace them anyways so I can eliminate all issues related to those codes completely.

This is good news because the mechanic that's going to replace them is really cool and the labor cost came out really, really cheap, we are looking to fix everything on Friday. Can't wait to gain the +130 horsepower lost from these issues!
 
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Old 10-22-2019, 06:22 PM
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I guarantee leaking valve covers has nothing to do with oil pressure unfortunately. However such an obvious mechanical problem does need to be fixed so you aren't making an ecological mess everywhere you park as well as fouling spark plugs from the well tube seals.
 
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Old 10-22-2019, 07:03 PM
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Its a fix that I have been meaning to do, been leaking oil for a while and glad to finally know its definitely the valve covers.

About the oil pressure, is that why the valve covers are made out of plastic because pressure in not as much of an issue in those areas? Always thought it was weird most cars dont have metal covers. Guess its a good thing Im still getting the solenoids
 

Last edited by Grotiare; 10-22-2019 at 07:07 PM.
  #23  
Old 10-22-2019, 08:48 PM
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Valve covers never have much "pressure" inside them, basically it's just a cover over the head to keep oil from splattering all over the place. The only pressure in there is the very slight blowby gasses that escape the piston rings or (hopefully not) the valve stems. Those gasses can build up pressure if given enough time if the whole system was sealed up but that's what Positive Crankcase Ventillation (PCV) is for, it allows the positive pressure to be discharged somewhere. The Almighty Environmental Protection Agency™ says these gasses must be routed back into the engine, usually accomplished via a PCV valve (one way check valve so gas comes OUT but nothing goes back IN) which is routed to the intake manifold. Vacuum from the manifold SUCKS the air out of the crankcase/valve covers. The air comes IN to the system right before the throttle body (it's already been measured by the MAF sensor so it's accounted for), there's a hose that goes to the left side valve cover, then the two valve covers are hooked together with a second line at the front of the motor, then the air exits the right side valve cover at the PCV check valve and is sucked into the upper plenum by the vacuum generated in the plenum.

OR

If you do a "PCV delete" because the quickly moving parts of the engine like the crankshaft whipping around at 7000 rpms and the oil bouncing off it coming down off the piston oil squirters causes the oil to turn into a very fine vapor mist that is now mixed in with these blowby gasses, same with the camshaft/valve train moving at 1/2 the speed of the crankshaft. Lots of moving parts colliding with oil splattering around makes a lot of "oil mist" that gets sucked back in with the blowby gasses coming out of the cylinder. It's not GOOD to be sucking oil into the compression chamber, it reduces octane and increases the changes of engine predetonation (knock). The PCV delete is basically taking the two hoses that would normally attach to the intake tract, the in and the out line and routing them both into a catch can that has a vent on the top of it. Blowby gas creates the pressure and it's vented off atmospherically.

It's a personal decision, pollute the environment and keep your intake plenum from getting oil crap all over inside it as well as reduce the chance of predetonation OR save the whales and suck that crap back into your engine so it all gets burned up. If you have a naturally aspirated engine you don't generate nearly as much blowby compression gas HOWEVER this is a fast spinning motor (rev up redline is 7000) and the faster it spins the more oil vapor is generated. Look up an engine spinning with a clear oil pan so you can see the crankshaft spinning, it's F'n scary how fast they go...

Now if we're talking FORCED INDUCTION, supercharged, turbocharged, nitrous, whatever, you ABSOLUTELY DO NOT want those blowby gasses sucked back into the combustion chamber ESPECIALLY if there's any chance of oil vapor being in it. High boost engines are already running on the ragged edge of predetonation usually (depends on how rich you are tuned) and under big load like that you can EASILY kaboom the motor by sucking oil vapor, better just to do a delete on the system so you know there's never going to be anything but AIR going into the combustion chamber.

Sorry for the long post, there's a lot of folks who don't really understand WHY these things exist though and while it might not help you specifically I'm sure someone will read this and the lightbulb will turn on in their head.

2019 EPA fine for tampering with emissions control equipment is currently $2500 per vehicle, I've never EVER in my lifetime known someone or even heard of someone (that could be verified) that has been penalized. Usually the bigger issue is some states won't allow you to register your vehicle if you can't pass a smog test.
 
  #24  
Old 10-23-2019, 01:24 AM
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He's right my covers been leaking like a faucet and I have good oil pressure. Just swapped them out and doing some other work. Could be the orings leaking for the cam sensors too. I'd have your oil pressure checked first. He just needs to take out the oil sensor and stick a gauge on. If you have low pressure your engine is possibly worn and nearing it's end.
 
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Old 10-23-2019, 08:37 PM
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Ok so I installed the new solenoids, but codes are coming back and the car still having trouble reaching RPMs (HP around 120hp still). Whats interesting though is that the p0011 and p0021 codes are coming up in my obdii readers faster after switching the solenoids out. Before I had to drive 2-3 cycles before the codes appeared, but now they come up immediately after deleting them and turning the car off then on. The solenoids appear to be moving too, based off the oil leaking from the holes when taken out of the engine. Codes p0075 and p0081 (electrical malfunction for solenoids wires) also come up when I disconnect the solenoids, so I think its safe to say the wiring is good. Going to try to check oil pressure Friday or Saturday when I get a chance.

Is the location where i check the oil pressure just where the oil pressure sensor is inserted in btw?
 

Last edited by Grotiare; 10-23-2019 at 08:59 PM.
  #26  
Old 10-23-2019, 10:18 PM
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Yeah, I think it's a British pipe thread (BPT) not a national pipe thread (NPT) so don't crossthread it accidentally.

I would also do a compression and leakdown test.

I wonder if the timing chain jumped a tooth, supposedly this timing chain was replaced yes? I wonder if they just F'd the install and it never ran correct because the chain is off.

Would explain the code since it would never be able to correct timing if the chain was off a tooth. Would also explain how the engine only makes a touch over 100whp being very cam retarded.
 
  #27  
Old 10-23-2019, 11:08 PM
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Originally Posted by cleric670@gmail
Yeah, I think it's a British pipe thread (BPT) not a national pipe thread (NPT) so don't crossthread it accidentally.

I would also do a compression and leakdown test.

I wonder if the timing chain jumped a tooth, supposedly this timing chain was replaced yes? I wonder if they just F'd the install and it never ran correct because the chain is off.

Would explain the code since it would never be able to correct timing if the chain was off a tooth. Would also explain how the engine only makes a touch over 100whp being very cam retarded.
Do you know what are the common signs of a jumped tooth besides the obvious lack of power? Wouldn't be surprised if the timing chain was messed up somehow, no where in the VIN does it say the chain was worked on but there is obvious work done on it (excessive RTV on timing covers, chains tensioned, broken chain guide replaced with new one apparently based off timing cover inspection).
 
  #28  
Old 10-24-2019, 02:02 AM
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I checked the slack of the timing chain, here's a video of me using a flathead apply one handed pressure. Does it look like too much slack?:

 
  #29  
Old 10-24-2019, 07:03 PM
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I don't think that's too bad. If you take the sprocket covers off and set the engine to TDC you can verify it using this: http://www.jimwolftechnology.com/wol...c_template.pdf
 
  #30  
Old 10-24-2019, 08:09 PM
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Yeah that's proper chain tension, however there's no way to determine actual chain alignment without pulling the crank pulley and timing chain cover.

I would leave the factory oil pressure sensor in place, get a sandwich adapter with 1/8 NPT and screw the aftermarket sensor into that. Try to use an existing grommet into the cabin, or drill a 1/4" hole, use a tight fitting rubber bushing and coat it thoroughly with sikaflex or NP1 sealant so it won't ever leak water. It's ok to make a little bit of a mess with the sikaflex, better than leaking water into the cabin. It's also much easier to drill from the INSIDE of the vehicle up in the driver footwell, just measure out and make sure you aren't going to drill into anything on the other side. Either permanently mount the gauge or just leave it temporary until you can isolate the problem.

If oil pressure reads ok then it's time to pull the timing cover and verify chain alignment. It's quite a bit of work to get down to it, I would set aside 2 full weekends, one for disassembly, one for reassembly. It took me about 20 hours the first time I did one of these.

There's also a couple of other oil galley gaskets on the DE motor you should replace, They're not usually a failure point (on the DE motor anyways) but since you are throwing both VTC codes you likely either have the chain completely off OR you have a major oil pressure leak and eliminating all those possible points inside the timing cover while you're there would be wise.

I also think it's worth draining all the oil into a VERY clean container, letting it sit overnight, pouring it off slowly into a second container with a very good light and looking for any "glitter" indicating the motor ate a bearing, bad bearings can lead to severely low oil pressure too.

EDIT: Normal oil pressure, at temperature, while driving, is the typical 40psi that most engines have. If I had to just GUESS at what point you would have VCT problems I'd say somewhere around 25psi while driving but I've never actually kept track of this on vehicles. Oil pressure lights don't normally turn ON until about 10psi.
 

Last edited by cleric670; 10-24-2019 at 08:14 PM.


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