Safe limit for Stock internals?
#1
09-03-2006, 07:40 PM
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Safe limit for Stock internals?
I have been reading post after post about FI and upgrading internals, but there seems to be differing opinions. The individuals that state to upgrade internals are those wanting to push the FI to the limit. So let me first state my intentions, and I will ask you FI professionals your thoughts.
I have an 05 6MT Revup that I am interested in applying the Vortech Kit (from the group buy). I have contacted Vortech directly, and they state that their kit is designed and tuned to work on a Stock motor safely. They claim 440/352 (at the crank I am assuming) using 9psi.
If i install this kit, then take it to a reputable shop for the proper tune, then I can assume some additional power will be applied to the car.
So, i am asking, that if i install the Vortech Kit, with a proper tune, is it safe to run on stock internals?
If I upgrade the pully to the 3.12, does the same statement hold true?
Your responses are most appreciated. Please remember, i am not trying to go overboard with the boost, and this is probably the last thing i add to the car for additional power.
Thank you
I have an 05 6MT Revup that I am interested in applying the Vortech Kit (from the group buy). I have contacted Vortech directly, and they state that their kit is designed and tuned to work on a Stock motor safely. They claim 440/352 (at the crank I am assuming) using 9psi.
If i install this kit, then take it to a reputable shop for the proper tune, then I can assume some additional power will be applied to the car.
So, i am asking, that if i install the Vortech Kit, with a proper tune, is it safe to run on stock internals?
If I upgrade the pully to the 3.12, does the same statement hold true?
Your responses are most appreciated. Please remember, i am not trying to go overboard with the boost, and this is probably the last thing i add to the car for additional power.
Thank you
#2
09-03-2006, 10:16 PM
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There are a couple of problems with answering this issue. The most basic of which is that safe means an absence of all hazards which cannot be experienced in engines (or anything else).
A better perspective is to consider this from a risk standpoint. As the power and torque levels increase, so does the risk of failure. The risk increases along a curve whose slope changes as power increases. That is at some point, risk will be increasing very rapidly with modest additional increases increases in power.
The problem is further complicated when the time or duration is considered. Increasing the power above OEM levels will shorten service life by some unknown amount, and service life will decrease as power levels increase along curves like those already mentioned.
Accordingly, to establish a "line in the sand" is somewhat subjective, but is clear the risk increases with power in a non-linear fashion.
If you need a number, you could consider that APS does not recommend their turbos be used to produce above 380 WHP on stock internals. This makes FI pretty expensive if all one is getting is an additional 100-150 WHP.
At least two other items need to be considered, however. One is the quality of the tune and the other is the octane of the gas used. A deficient tune or low octane gas can cause detonation and blow an engine much faster than you can say, "Better take my foot off the gas!" Some guys thought they had a great tune and found out otherwise.
In a nutshell, the risk is difficult to quantify and it has a sobering $10K downside.
A better perspective is to consider this from a risk standpoint. As the power and torque levels increase, so does the risk of failure. The risk increases along a curve whose slope changes as power increases. That is at some point, risk will be increasing very rapidly with modest additional increases increases in power.
The problem is further complicated when the time or duration is considered. Increasing the power above OEM levels will shorten service life by some unknown amount, and service life will decrease as power levels increase along curves like those already mentioned.
Accordingly, to establish a "line in the sand" is somewhat subjective, but is clear the risk increases with power in a non-linear fashion.
If you need a number, you could consider that APS does not recommend their turbos be used to produce above 380 WHP on stock internals. This makes FI pretty expensive if all one is getting is an additional 100-150 WHP.
At least two other items need to be considered, however. One is the quality of the tune and the other is the octane of the gas used. A deficient tune or low octane gas can cause detonation and blow an engine much faster than you can say, "Better take my foot off the gas!" Some guys thought they had a great tune and found out otherwise.
In a nutshell, the risk is difficult to quantify and it has a sobering $10K downside.
#3
09-04-2006, 01:33 AM
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Does upgrading the internals nullify the shortened life of the engine?
I completely understand there is risk involved in any decision, but by safe, I am really referring to reliability. I have talked to owners of Dinan Superchargers and Dinan himself about the supercharger for M3's, and the consensus is that the supercharger will die long before the engine does.
However, the folks on this forum and the 350Z forum seem to have the magic number of 100,000 as the benchmark for the life of an engine with FI. Personally, i think that mark is a bit low for a target.
I would love to put the Vortech kit on my car, but if getting 20-40k miles on an FI engine is a "great feat", then I don't see an upside. Sure you get a faster car for a short time, but I can conceivably put that many miles on the car in a year or two. And if dropping $10-20k into the car is necessary to increase power safely/reliably, I probably going to skip this upgrade and buy something different instead.
I completely understand there is risk involved in any decision, but by safe, I am really referring to reliability. I have talked to owners of Dinan Superchargers and Dinan himself about the supercharger for M3's, and the consensus is that the supercharger will die long before the engine does.
However, the folks on this forum and the 350Z forum seem to have the magic number of 100,000 as the benchmark for the life of an engine with FI. Personally, i think that mark is a bit low for a target.
I would love to put the Vortech kit on my car, but if getting 20-40k miles on an FI engine is a "great feat", then I don't see an upside. Sure you get a faster car for a short time, but I can conceivably put that many miles on the car in a year or two. And if dropping $10-20k into the car is necessary to increase power safely/reliably, I probably going to skip this upgrade and buy something different instead.
#4
09-04-2006, 10:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Superman
Does upgrading the internals nullify the shortened life of the engine?
I completely understand there is risk involved in any decision, but by safe, I am really referring to reliability.
However, the folks on this forum and the 350Z forum seem to have the magic number of 100,000 as the benchmark for the life of an engine with FI. Personally, i think that mark is a bit low for a target.
I completely understand there is risk involved in any decision, but by safe, I am really referring to reliability.
However, the folks on this forum and the 350Z forum seem to have the magic number of 100,000 as the benchmark for the life of an engine with FI. Personally, i think that mark is a bit low for a target.
I would certainly agree that 100,000K is low for a survival target. If an FI installation is truly successful, it should not reduce the life of the engine AT ALL. Those who disagree are simply willing to absorb an additional "hidden" cost for FI, but a real cost nontheless.
Most Nissan engines should last at least 250,000 miles IF coolant levels are maintained and oil changes are completed at appropriate intervals with quality oils. This probably means that the engine will outlast the rest of the car. If an FI installation causes the engine to fail prematurely, this failure is a high cost issue that must be considered in the overall FI picture.
Consider cars with OEM turbos for example. Blown engines are not something you hear about very often, or I don't anyway. I don't think I've ever heard of a Porsche 911 blowing an engine for example. The reason is that the engine is designed from the ground up with FI in mind and with a certain output.
Our situation is entirely different. We have a high compression engine designed to be N/A. It doesn't take much to push the engine out of its design envelope with FI. At relatively low levels, the engine seems to survive for a while and many shops seem to be telling customers they have nothing to worry about. After all, if the engine survives for 30K before it blows, that shop fades into the distant past and there are plenty of possibilities to blame the failure on. But the real cause is that the engine was asked to do something beyond what is was designed for. Computer design has reduced safety factors (and production costs) so there is precious little to borrow from.
The best solution seems to be to rebuild the engine with forged internals, but even here the "where to stop" line is fuzzy and opinions vary. Nevertheless, $5K seems to be the minimum expenditure and that will only beef up the bottom end.
And it is still possible to blow a built engine if detonation is experienced from a deficient tune or low octane gas. Engine management is an essential part of the equation.
#5
09-06-2006, 12:41 AM
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Bills advice is excellent,
If you want to spend 7-8K on a Vortech and install, run low boost and have about 340whp tops (which is still a very fast car) that that would probably be a fairly safe set up, but there is no guarantee. FI on stock internals is ALWAYS a risk and you should have a pot of money and a back up car just in case.
To really have security be ready to build the bottom end and spend at least 20K. And then I wouldn't waste my money/efforts on SC.
If you want to spend 7-8K on a Vortech and install, run low boost and have about 340whp tops (which is still a very fast car) that that would probably be a fairly safe set up, but there is no guarantee. FI on stock internals is ALWAYS a risk and you should have a pot of money and a back up car just in case.
To really have security be ready to build the bottom end and spend at least 20K. And then I wouldn't waste my money/efforts on SC.
#6
09-08-2006, 01:33 AM
another option would be to throw on a few more bolt ons, add a utec and throw on 100-150 shot. i ran high 11s all day with my setup on a stock motor. nitrous is great because you dont use it all the time. its effects on a motor will be determined by how much you use it. you could throw on utec and full safe nitrous setup for under 2000 dollars plus, be able to turn the car back to stock and sell the parts for almost what you paid for them...
just another option. SC have no torque, never been a fan on our cars. nitrous has LOTS of tq...
just another option. SC have no torque, never been a fan on our cars. nitrous has LOTS of tq...
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