My PE TT Dynoed
#1
09-07-2004, 04:15 PM
My PE TT Dynoed
Hey Guys
Here is the first PE TT dyno of my car..... from G35 DynoDay (Saturday). 4th gear (1:1 ratio) runs:
Notes:
- The dyno chart only covers ~3800rpm and above because our crappy AT will downshift if floored below that. There are ways around this I think, but I couldn't ask him to try different things as this was during a dyno day and there were others waiting behind me. During a tuning session we will try to get more out of the tranny.
- There is a weird drop off right before 6K rpm during my 7psi run. I only hope that this is not a sign of a MAF limitation, as I know for a fact that at ~6.5 psi and up, the MAF voltage does in fact reach/surpass 5V. If this is a tuning issue... I would have a slightly higher peak HP number if this curve kept rising like the others.
- This was done on a stock ECU (for a few reasons, among which was that PE wanted to see the car with a stock ECU and try to tune the A/F without the need for any kind of EM .... yeah whatever!) I humored them, but did not reflash back to a TS ECU for this dyno to get a true, no-EM/tuning dyno of this kit on my car, for myself and all you to see.
- Mokoto (PE Chief engineer) installed an FRP with a stiffer spring than the one provided for MT G/Z kits, as the A/F at the stock 4.3 psi was ~12.0 on the stock program (latest version - AM603). We were able to get the A/F down to low-mid 11's.
- Now, you maybe asking why is it that the af is in low 12's and not 11's... and why the a/f's rise with the higher boost runs? Probably because of an exhaust leak or a bad dyno a/f sensor (but it's still to be determined), as my AEM a/f gauge was showing not only lower, but steadier numbers accross the range (i was sitting next to the dyno operator during the runs). Also, Mokoto's super-duper (>$1K wideband a/f system) was within .1-.2 units of MY aem gauge. At the next dyno session, we will plug his sensor into a spare bung on the bank 1 test pipe to get a better reading. My AEM reading, BTW, were low-mid 11's for hte 4psi run, and in the high 11's to no more than 12.2 for the higher psi run.
- Timing, as indicated on teh dyno sheet, I was taking out too much timing - wanted to be safe. So, for my ~7 psi run, i was taking out approximately 7.7+2=~10 degrees of timing, about 9 for the econd run, and only 2 (and only above 5250 rpm) during the 3rd run (as the J&S was set to begin taking timing off at 5psi of boost and above). Now, the reason that I say that this is too much timing retard is because i am running on a relatively detuned stock g35 automatic ECU (260hp car), which compared to the stock 350z ecu has it's timing at ~4-5 degrees less timing advance (hence the power difference). Another reason I know this is that there was not even a hint of detonation at 7.5 psi and (according to my gauge) ~12.0 a/f. I will be trying a bunch of things at my next dyno session, so stay tuned.
- Also, I really need to get a better exhaust, as the stillen, even though it's dual 2.5" exhaust, it opens into a muffler with a single 2.5" passthrough (stupid). So, I will either be changing the muffler or getting a whole new exhaust...
- a TS reflash will also allow for the TB plate to open all the way, as this is NEVER the case on a stock g35 AT sedan according to TS.
- I will of course not get what an MT car would get because of my AT; there is an inevitable slippage/loss in the TC. However, from the dynos that were done, and those will be posted by Clint (THX723) on the G35 boards soon, the AT's were at a statistical dead heat with the MT's. So, IMO the difference is NOT that significant. However, I am happy with where I am at this point (no ECU tuning),and i think that there is definitely room for improvement.
Any thoughts/ideas woud be greatly appreciated.
Will keep everyone posted
Gurgen
Here is the first PE TT dyno of my car..... from G35 DynoDay (Saturday). 4th gear (1:1 ratio) runs:
Notes:
- The dyno chart only covers ~3800rpm and above because our crappy AT will downshift if floored below that. There are ways around this I think, but I couldn't ask him to try different things as this was during a dyno day and there were others waiting behind me. During a tuning session we will try to get more out of the tranny.
- There is a weird drop off right before 6K rpm during my 7psi run. I only hope that this is not a sign of a MAF limitation, as I know for a fact that at ~6.5 psi and up, the MAF voltage does in fact reach/surpass 5V. If this is a tuning issue... I would have a slightly higher peak HP number if this curve kept rising like the others.
- This was done on a stock ECU (for a few reasons, among which was that PE wanted to see the car with a stock ECU and try to tune the A/F without the need for any kind of EM .... yeah whatever!) I humored them, but did not reflash back to a TS ECU for this dyno to get a true, no-EM/tuning dyno of this kit on my car, for myself and all you to see.
- Mokoto (PE Chief engineer) installed an FRP with a stiffer spring than the one provided for MT G/Z kits, as the A/F at the stock 4.3 psi was ~12.0 on the stock program (latest version - AM603). We were able to get the A/F down to low-mid 11's.
- Now, you maybe asking why is it that the af is in low 12's and not 11's... and why the a/f's rise with the higher boost runs? Probably because of an exhaust leak or a bad dyno a/f sensor (but it's still to be determined), as my AEM a/f gauge was showing not only lower, but steadier numbers accross the range (i was sitting next to the dyno operator during the runs). Also, Mokoto's super-duper (>$1K wideband a/f system) was within .1-.2 units of MY aem gauge. At the next dyno session, we will plug his sensor into a spare bung on the bank 1 test pipe to get a better reading. My AEM reading, BTW, were low-mid 11's for hte 4psi run, and in the high 11's to no more than 12.2 for the higher psi run.
- Timing, as indicated on teh dyno sheet, I was taking out too much timing - wanted to be safe. So, for my ~7 psi run, i was taking out approximately 7.7+2=~10 degrees of timing, about 9 for the econd run, and only 2 (and only above 5250 rpm) during the 3rd run (as the J&S was set to begin taking timing off at 5psi of boost and above). Now, the reason that I say that this is too much timing retard is because i am running on a relatively detuned stock g35 automatic ECU (260hp car), which compared to the stock 350z ecu has it's timing at ~4-5 degrees less timing advance (hence the power difference). Another reason I know this is that there was not even a hint of detonation at 7.5 psi and (according to my gauge) ~12.0 a/f. I will be trying a bunch of things at my next dyno session, so stay tuned.
- Also, I really need to get a better exhaust, as the stillen, even though it's dual 2.5" exhaust, it opens into a muffler with a single 2.5" passthrough (stupid). So, I will either be changing the muffler or getting a whole new exhaust...
- a TS reflash will also allow for the TB plate to open all the way, as this is NEVER the case on a stock g35 AT sedan according to TS.
- I will of course not get what an MT car would get because of my AT; there is an inevitable slippage/loss in the TC. However, from the dynos that were done, and those will be posted by Clint (THX723) on the G35 boards soon, the AT's were at a statistical dead heat with the MT's. So, IMO the difference is NOT that significant. However, I am happy with where I am at this point (no ECU tuning),and i think that there is definitely room for improvement.
Any thoughts/ideas woud be greatly appreciated.
Will keep everyone posted
Gurgen
#2
09-07-2004, 11:10 PM
#4
09-08-2004, 11:36 PM
Re: My PE TT Dynoed
"Also, I really need to get a better exhaust, as the stillen, even though it's dual 2.5" exhaust, it opens into a muffler with a single 2.5" passthrough (stupid)."
My thoughts exactly. The morons didn't even put a radiused inlet on that 2.5" pass through. (morons)
Say hello & good by to Franken Stillen. I will be switching the muffler out for some Borlas. That should make a nice combo. I will also have the option of trying out straight pipes while on the track. I will fabricate these tomorrow. If you thought the Stillen muffler was loud wait untill you hear the straight pipes!!!!!!! The sound will chew your ears like Mike Tyson on PCP.
At least now I have the option of experimenting with several different configurations at the flange.
BTW I will hook up a pressure sensor up stream of the 3 hole flanges to measure the Delta P differences between all the different configurations. I will post results when data is available.
In Theory, practice and theory are the same.
In Practice, practice and theory are not the same.
2004 G35 6MT Blk/Blk Sedan Stillen Air, Stillen Exhaust
339487-Muff 1.jpg
My thoughts exactly. The morons didn't even put a radiused inlet on that 2.5" pass through. (morons)
Say hello & good by to Franken Stillen. I will be switching the muffler out for some Borlas. That should make a nice combo. I will also have the option of trying out straight pipes while on the track. I will fabricate these tomorrow. If you thought the Stillen muffler was loud wait untill you hear the straight pipes!!!!!!! The sound will chew your ears like Mike Tyson on PCP.
At least now I have the option of experimenting with several different configurations at the flange.
BTW I will hook up a pressure sensor up stream of the 3 hole flanges to measure the Delta P differences between all the different configurations. I will post results when data is available.
In Theory, practice and theory are the same.
In Practice, practice and theory are not the same.
2004 G35 6MT Blk/Blk Sedan Stillen Air, Stillen Exhaust
339487-Muff 1.jpg
#5
09-08-2004, 11:38 PM
Re: My PE TT Dynoed
2
In Theory, practice and theory are the same.
In Practice, practice and theory are not the same.
2004 G35 6MT Blk/Blk Sedan Stillen Air, Stillen Exhaust
339489-Muff 2.jpg
In Theory, practice and theory are the same.
In Practice, practice and theory are not the same.
2004 G35 6MT Blk/Blk Sedan Stillen Air, Stillen Exhaust
339489-Muff 2.jpg
#6
09-08-2004, 11:39 PM
Re: My PE TT Dynoed
3
In Theory, practice and theory are the same.
In Practice, practice and theory are not the same.
2004 G35 6MT Blk/Blk Sedan Stillen Air, Stillen Exhaust
339492-Muff 3.jpg
In Theory, practice and theory are the same.
In Practice, practice and theory are not the same.
2004 G35 6MT Blk/Blk Sedan Stillen Air, Stillen Exhaust
339492-Muff 3.jpg
#7
09-08-2004, 11:40 PM
Re: My PE TT Dynoed
4
In Theory, practice and theory are the same.
In Practice, practice and theory are not the same.
2004 G35 6MT Blk/Blk Sedan Stillen Air, Stillen Exhaust
339496-Muff 4.jpg
In Theory, practice and theory are the same.
In Practice, practice and theory are not the same.
2004 G35 6MT Blk/Blk Sedan Stillen Air, Stillen Exhaust
339496-Muff 4.jpg
Trending Topics
#8
09-08-2004, 11:40 PM
Re: My PE TT Dynoed
5
In Theory, practice and theory are the same.
In Practice, practice and theory are not the same.
2004 G35 6MT Blk/Blk Sedan Stillen Air, Stillen Exhaust
339498-Muff 5.jpg
In Theory, practice and theory are the same.
In Practice, practice and theory are not the same.
2004 G35 6MT Blk/Blk Sedan Stillen Air, Stillen Exhaust
339498-Muff 5.jpg
#9
09-08-2004, 11:41 PM
Re: My PE TT Dynoed
6
In Theory, practice and theory are the same.
In Practice, practice and theory are not the same.
2004 G35 6MT Blk/Blk Sedan Stillen Air, Stillen Exhaust
339500-Muff 6.jpg
In Theory, practice and theory are the same.
In Practice, practice and theory are not the same.
2004 G35 6MT Blk/Blk Sedan Stillen Air, Stillen Exhaust
339500-Muff 6.jpg
#10
09-08-2004, 11:42 PM
Re: My PE TT Dynoed
7
In Theory, practice and theory are the same.
In Practice, practice and theory are not the same.
2004 G35 6MT Blk/Blk Sedan Stillen Air, Stillen Exhaust
339501-Muff 7.jpg
In Theory, practice and theory are the same.
In Practice, practice and theory are not the same.
2004 G35 6MT Blk/Blk Sedan Stillen Air, Stillen Exhaust
339501-Muff 7.jpg
#11
09-08-2004, 11:43 PM
Re: My PE TT Dynoed
8
In Theory, practice and theory are the same.
In Practice, practice and theory are not the same.
2004 G35 6MT Blk/Blk Sedan Stillen Air, Stillen Exhaust
339503-Muff 8.jpg
In Theory, practice and theory are the same.
In Practice, practice and theory are not the same.
2004 G35 6MT Blk/Blk Sedan Stillen Air, Stillen Exhaust
339503-Muff 8.jpg
#12
09-09-2004, 12:28 AM
Re: My PE TT Dynoed
HYdrazine...
Beautiful!!!! You realised what i was goign to try tomorrow morning... Cannot wait to see the objective data....
Couple of ??
1. So, to make it clear, that is a Borla rear section you adapt to the Stillen?
2. Do you know how it would work/what the outcome would be, if I had a 5x9 or 4x11 magnaflow universal muffler (2 in 2 out, 2.5" each). They are straight through. Keep in mind I have a turbo, so the car is relative tame for having test pipes right now. Do you think we will need to add, or can benefit from adding, a pair of 2.5" inlet/oulet mufflers somewhere after the resonators and before the muffler...
3. And here is the MOST important concern. I do not want the car to sound like a muscle car... but rather have an F1-type, higher pitch exhaust note. I am afraid Maganflow ones may be more of the former type...
Gurgen
Beautiful!!!! You realised what i was goign to try tomorrow morning... Cannot wait to see the objective data....
Couple of ??
1. So, to make it clear, that is a Borla rear section you adapt to the Stillen?
2. Do you know how it would work/what the outcome would be, if I had a 5x9 or 4x11 magnaflow universal muffler (2 in 2 out, 2.5" each). They are straight through. Keep in mind I have a turbo, so the car is relative tame for having test pipes right now. Do you think we will need to add, or can benefit from adding, a pair of 2.5" inlet/oulet mufflers somewhere after the resonators and before the muffler...
3. And here is the MOST important concern. I do not want the car to sound like a muscle car... but rather have an F1-type, higher pitch exhaust note. I am afraid Maganflow ones may be more of the former type...
Gurgen
#13
09-09-2004, 10:02 AM
Re: My PE TT Dynoed
<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>
...The sound will chew your ears like Mike Tyson on PCP
<hr></blockquote> Now that's good stuff!!!
<font color=blue>The above statements are only my take on the issue. If you disagree with anything I typed then you are 100% right!</font color=blue>
...The sound will chew your ears like Mike Tyson on PCP
<hr></blockquote> Now that's good stuff!!!
<font color=blue>The above statements are only my take on the issue. If you disagree with anything I typed then you are 100% right!</font color=blue>
#14
09-09-2004, 10:26 AM
Re: My PE TT Dynoed
Gurg,
1. YES.
2. "Do you know how it would work/what the outcome would be."
My guess is NA HP will increase. Who knows where NA TQ will go? For your TT system the numbers can only go up (all across the board).
"if I had a 5x9 or 4x11 magnaflow universal muffler (2 in 2 out, 2.5" each). They are straight through. Keep in mind I have a turbo, so the car is relative tame for having test pipes right now."
This should be do able. It may or may not be a challenge getting the 2 in 2 pipes of the muffler to align with the Stillen 2 pipe system. The Stillen pipes have a fixed spacing due to a welded bracket. I chose to add 2 other brackets to dimensionally stabilize the pipes when the muffler was cut off. I wanted to insure the pipes would re-align if I put the Stillen muffler back on. Putting a different type of muffler on _almost_ guarantees that it will need dual mufflers. But this isn't a bad thing. At least it will now be a true dual exhaust system.
"Do you think we will need to add, or can benefit from adding, a pair of 2.5" inlet/oulet mufflers somewhere after the resonators and before the muffler... "
Are you saying Mufflers before the Mufflers? I wouldn't bother.
"3. And here is the MOST important concern. I do not want the car to sound like a muscle car... but rather have an F1-type, higher pitch exhaust note. I am afraid Maganflow ones may be more of the former type... "
Experimentation is the only way to converge on the specific sound you are looking for. I also think it would be hard for your car to sound like a muscle car because of the turbo.
For me, I don't have a specific type of sound I'm looking for. I just want it to sound cool, sound unique and increase performance without being too loud. (I will save the straight pipes for the track.)
Heck, It may even be possible to modify and hook up the stock muffler. From what I understand it has a variable flow area that changes with load. Quiet while cruising and free flowing at WOT. This may not be a bad option to try.
Besides, it has all the steel hangers ready to hook up to the rubber muffler support grommets.
If you want, we could use a common mounting interface for cross-experimentation purposes. Use the same 3 hole flanges from Midas. That way, we could swap each others mufflers from car to car to see/hear the different effects of the different mufflers on both FI and NA systems. What may not sound good NA may sound good FI or vice versa.
If any one with a Stillen catback is interested we could really increase the number of data points to converge on an optimum sound.
In Theory, practice and theory are the same.
In Practice, practice and theory are not the same.
2004 G35 6MT Blk/Blk Sedan Stillen Air, Stillen Exhaust
1. YES.
2. "Do you know how it would work/what the outcome would be."
My guess is NA HP will increase. Who knows where NA TQ will go? For your TT system the numbers can only go up (all across the board).
"if I had a 5x9 or 4x11 magnaflow universal muffler (2 in 2 out, 2.5" each). They are straight through. Keep in mind I have a turbo, so the car is relative tame for having test pipes right now."
This should be do able. It may or may not be a challenge getting the 2 in 2 pipes of the muffler to align with the Stillen 2 pipe system. The Stillen pipes have a fixed spacing due to a welded bracket. I chose to add 2 other brackets to dimensionally stabilize the pipes when the muffler was cut off. I wanted to insure the pipes would re-align if I put the Stillen muffler back on. Putting a different type of muffler on _almost_ guarantees that it will need dual mufflers. But this isn't a bad thing. At least it will now be a true dual exhaust system.
"Do you think we will need to add, or can benefit from adding, a pair of 2.5" inlet/oulet mufflers somewhere after the resonators and before the muffler... "
Are you saying Mufflers before the Mufflers? I wouldn't bother.
"3. And here is the MOST important concern. I do not want the car to sound like a muscle car... but rather have an F1-type, higher pitch exhaust note. I am afraid Maganflow ones may be more of the former type... "
Experimentation is the only way to converge on the specific sound you are looking for. I also think it would be hard for your car to sound like a muscle car because of the turbo.
For me, I don't have a specific type of sound I'm looking for. I just want it to sound cool, sound unique and increase performance without being too loud. (I will save the straight pipes for the track.)
Heck, It may even be possible to modify and hook up the stock muffler. From what I understand it has a variable flow area that changes with load. Quiet while cruising and free flowing at WOT. This may not be a bad option to try.
Besides, it has all the steel hangers ready to hook up to the rubber muffler support grommets.
If you want, we could use a common mounting interface for cross-experimentation purposes. Use the same 3 hole flanges from Midas. That way, we could swap each others mufflers from car to car to see/hear the different effects of the different mufflers on both FI and NA systems. What may not sound good NA may sound good FI or vice versa.
If any one with a Stillen catback is interested we could really increase the number of data points to converge on an optimum sound.
In Theory, practice and theory are the same.
In Practice, practice and theory are not the same.
2004 G35 6MT Blk/Blk Sedan Stillen Air, Stillen Exhaust
#15
09-09-2004, 10:41 AM
Re: My PE TT Dynoed
Hydrazine,
I look forward to seeing and hearing the results of your improved design. There's additional power to be had by replacing the Stillen Sedan systems muffler.
The Stillen Sedan system muffler is that way by design. In fact there's a couple of other "inefficiencies" in the muffler design you may catch if you look closely.
There were more than five Stillen Sedan prototypes before the commercial version was selected. The first and last prototypes had two separate round mufflers side by side in the stock location as I'd recommended. At least one other prototype had a common muffler housing with essentually two 2.5" straight through internal pipes and was, perhaps, more in line with what you expected.
These prototypes made more hp & torque than the final commercial version. Unfortunately, they were extremely loud and deemed unacceptable for daily driving.
Maybe they weren't "morons" after all.
DaveO
03 G35 AT Sedan / DP / Willow / Premium / Sport / Aero / Mods / 262 & 260.7
I look forward to seeing and hearing the results of your improved design. There's additional power to be had by replacing the Stillen Sedan systems muffler.
The Stillen Sedan system muffler is that way by design. In fact there's a couple of other "inefficiencies" in the muffler design you may catch if you look closely.
There were more than five Stillen Sedan prototypes before the commercial version was selected. The first and last prototypes had two separate round mufflers side by side in the stock location as I'd recommended. At least one other prototype had a common muffler housing with essentually two 2.5" straight through internal pipes and was, perhaps, more in line with what you expected.
These prototypes made more hp & torque than the final commercial version. Unfortunately, they were extremely loud and deemed unacceptable for daily driving.
Maybe they weren't "morons" after all.
DaveO
03 G35 AT Sedan / DP / Willow / Premium / Sport / Aero / Mods / 262 & 260.7