New possible FI product
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New possible FI product
Hi everyone,
Possibily a new turbo solution for G35 owners!! Please take a look at this thread, click here, and let us know if you might be interested.
I represent V6Performance.net, and we're eagerly looking for members that have interests in helping us and STS to R&D this new product; as well as purchasing one when R&D came through with good gain, and good price. Please review the information we presented at that thread, and ask any questions here or at V6P. I will try to answer them as best as I can.
To owners and moderators of G35driver.com, please allow us to post this thread to present this possible solution and gauge interests. If this post is deemed in violation of forum rule, please delete it and kindly notify me. V6P respects other forum owners and moderators, and is not here to cause problems.
Thank you.
Andy (aka Brex)
V6Performance.net Inc.
Possibily a new turbo solution for G35 owners!! Please take a look at this thread, click here, and let us know if you might be interested.
I represent V6Performance.net, and we're eagerly looking for members that have interests in helping us and STS to R&D this new product; as well as purchasing one when R&D came through with good gain, and good price. Please review the information we presented at that thread, and ask any questions here or at V6P. I will try to answer them as best as I can.
To owners and moderators of G35driver.com, please allow us to post this thread to present this possible solution and gauge interests. If this post is deemed in violation of forum rule, please delete it and kindly notify me. V6P respects other forum owners and moderators, and is not here to cause problems.
Thank you.
Andy (aka Brex)
V6Performance.net Inc.
Last edited by brex; Dec 5, 2004 at 12:10 PM.
Hey Brex hows it going? I checked out the info, looks interesting. I would have some major concerns before I would let them test my car, but new products are always interesting.
Thanks for the info,
Thanks for the info,
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Joined: Aug 2004
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From: SOCAL
The FAQ quoted on that link(read below for my response):
First off, I can't make heads or tails if you are comparing to an NA motor or a more tradionally mounted turbo system. I will respond only to the portions I disagree with.
Increased gas mileage? The turbo poses a restriction in the exhaust. More backpressure WILL be a result. And considering the system uses the existing piping, no increases in flow will be realized ahead of the turbo.
Cool oil is not necessarily a good thing, Oil in it's correct operating temperature and lower than the point of molecular breakdown is a good thing. Too cool and it can do more harm then good. Not to say these sytems cause the oil to run cooler than stock, but the statement weas inaccurate.
Cooler exhaust temperatures certainly lower the temperature the oil in the turbo bearing will see, but exhaust energy is also the driving force of the turbo itself. You lower it and you are making the engine work harder to create boost. And denser exhaust gasses do not drive the compressor more efficiently in that of itself. The density gained by a rear mounted system will be the result of losing heat out of the exhaust system. The density that helps to drive a turbo is from pressure. Pressure and heat are forms of energy. These are the two forms that spin a turbine. Density does not. And this leads me to my next reponse to the pressure differential. Turbos work better when exposed to a higher pressure differential. In fact for pressure to be a factor, there must be a differential. If you have 20 psi of exhaust pressure and ambient pressure was 20 psi, the air would not move through the turbine. That being said, how exactly would a rear mounted turbo gain any more of a pressure differential? This is a function of how much air the motor pumps out, how much air the exhaust behind the turbo allows to flow out, and the restriction the turbine itself adds. To get a better pressure differential here, you would have to use a smaller turbine and/or turbine nozzle(A/R.). And while you can obtain the same pressure differential, you lose the heat. In order to get the same amount of energy you have to substitute more pressure for heat. Doing so means the motor will see more backpressure. This means the turbo will use more mechanical energy to drive the compressor than it would for a turbo that sees more heat energy.
Do you have test data for the cooling the pipes provide? Considering the speed at which the gasses travel during boost, the fact that the surface to volume ratio of a single pipe is poor and the fact that charge air has less temperature differential to the ambient air than exhaust air, 50% seems high to me. And under what conditions? Intercoolers do more than just transfer heat. They absorb it acting like heatsinks to be cooled both externally just about all the time and internally when off-boost. This is something pipes are not going to be able to do well as there is not as much mass or effective cooling.
Better weight transfer? That's dependent on the car. Perhaps you can call it more rear weight transfer, but given the weight of a turbo itself, it would probably shift weight less than 1% to the rear. And better traction would also only apply to a RWD car. FWD cars would end up with less percentage of it's weight over it's drivewheels.
Less noise? I never heard a difference in noise when I put a turbo in my last car. At lease none from the engine compartment. And sure a divorced wastegate will be quieter on a rear mounted sytem since it's running through the stock cats(if still equipped) and piping.
Better cooling capacity? Perhaps the engine will run cooler than a traditionally mounted system, but will not increase the cooling capacity of a NA motor. You're adding more power to the motor. This makes the engine run hotter. The turbo sytem, rear mounted or traditionally mounted will not cool the motor to any degree.
This system will add power to a NA motor. But the FAQ is misleading, inaccurate, and/or unclear. The message seems to focus not on more power, but rather on some of the side benefits, which really aren't all that relevant to making more power. They are things that are for the most part, acceptable, and in many cases controllable. I don't mind that this product exists and that it is sold, but what the FAQ fails to mention are the negative aspects of the system. Typical of any business marketting a product. But this FAQ in particular is a lot more contradicting and misleading than most. Perhaps on par with the type of claims made by Tornado Air systems.
- Ease of installation. STS turbo systems can be installed in 4-6 hours with standard tools and average mechanical ability.
- Performance Sound. The turbo acts as a muffler and sounds like an aftermarket performance muffler. Turbo spool and rushing air from the blow-off valve make a unique sound that will turn heads!
- No need for major modifications to your vehicle. STS systems are designed to bolt on using factory mounts without cutting or modifying your vehicle.
- Increased gas mileage. Unlike a belt driven supercharger, the turbo utilizes "wasted" energy leaving your tailpipe. Most of our customers get 2-4 mpg increase in gas mileage.
- Lower underhood temperatures. No need to worry about melting wires, hoses, or other components.
- Easily converts back to stock in less than an hour.
- More room under the hood. Future repair work or modifications will not require the expense of removing the turbo system to allow access to any of the engine components.
- Cooler oil to the turbo. Cool oil is better for both the turbo and engine.
- Approximately 500F lower turbo temperatures. Eliminates the need for a turbo-timer, which allows the engine to run after the car is shut off in order to cool down the turbo and prevent oil and bearing damage.
- Denser exhaust gasses drive the turbo turbine wheel more efficiently.
- Built-in intercooling. Intake piping provides ~50% intercooler efficiency. There is no need for the expense, pressure drop, and installation problems associated with a front mounted intercooler.
- Turbo is exposed to ambient air rather than underhood air. Allows for better cooling of turbo components.
- No need for expensive headers, mufflers, or exhaust systems.
- Turbo is closer to the tail pipe outlet. Provides a better pressure differential across the turbine wheel which promotes better flow across turbine.
- Better weight transfer. Increases traction because the bulk of system is mounted in rear of vehicle rather than up front.
- Less noise in the passenger compartment.
- Quieter wastegates, especially if vented to atmosphere.
- Better engine cooling capacity.
- Performance Sound. The turbo acts as a muffler and sounds like an aftermarket performance muffler. Turbo spool and rushing air from the blow-off valve make a unique sound that will turn heads!
- No need for major modifications to your vehicle. STS systems are designed to bolt on using factory mounts without cutting or modifying your vehicle.
- Increased gas mileage. Unlike a belt driven supercharger, the turbo utilizes "wasted" energy leaving your tailpipe. Most of our customers get 2-4 mpg increase in gas mileage.
- Lower underhood temperatures. No need to worry about melting wires, hoses, or other components.
- Easily converts back to stock in less than an hour.
- More room under the hood. Future repair work or modifications will not require the expense of removing the turbo system to allow access to any of the engine components.
- Cooler oil to the turbo. Cool oil is better for both the turbo and engine.
- Approximately 500F lower turbo temperatures. Eliminates the need for a turbo-timer, which allows the engine to run after the car is shut off in order to cool down the turbo and prevent oil and bearing damage.
- Denser exhaust gasses drive the turbo turbine wheel more efficiently.
- Built-in intercooling. Intake piping provides ~50% intercooler efficiency. There is no need for the expense, pressure drop, and installation problems associated with a front mounted intercooler.
- Turbo is exposed to ambient air rather than underhood air. Allows for better cooling of turbo components.
- No need for expensive headers, mufflers, or exhaust systems.
- Turbo is closer to the tail pipe outlet. Provides a better pressure differential across the turbine wheel which promotes better flow across turbine.
- Better weight transfer. Increases traction because the bulk of system is mounted in rear of vehicle rather than up front.
- Less noise in the passenger compartment.
- Quieter wastegates, especially if vented to atmosphere.
- Better engine cooling capacity.
Increased gas mileage? The turbo poses a restriction in the exhaust. More backpressure WILL be a result. And considering the system uses the existing piping, no increases in flow will be realized ahead of the turbo.
Cool oil is not necessarily a good thing, Oil in it's correct operating temperature and lower than the point of molecular breakdown is a good thing. Too cool and it can do more harm then good. Not to say these sytems cause the oil to run cooler than stock, but the statement weas inaccurate.
Cooler exhaust temperatures certainly lower the temperature the oil in the turbo bearing will see, but exhaust energy is also the driving force of the turbo itself. You lower it and you are making the engine work harder to create boost. And denser exhaust gasses do not drive the compressor more efficiently in that of itself. The density gained by a rear mounted system will be the result of losing heat out of the exhaust system. The density that helps to drive a turbo is from pressure. Pressure and heat are forms of energy. These are the two forms that spin a turbine. Density does not. And this leads me to my next reponse to the pressure differential. Turbos work better when exposed to a higher pressure differential. In fact for pressure to be a factor, there must be a differential. If you have 20 psi of exhaust pressure and ambient pressure was 20 psi, the air would not move through the turbine. That being said, how exactly would a rear mounted turbo gain any more of a pressure differential? This is a function of how much air the motor pumps out, how much air the exhaust behind the turbo allows to flow out, and the restriction the turbine itself adds. To get a better pressure differential here, you would have to use a smaller turbine and/or turbine nozzle(A/R.). And while you can obtain the same pressure differential, you lose the heat. In order to get the same amount of energy you have to substitute more pressure for heat. Doing so means the motor will see more backpressure. This means the turbo will use more mechanical energy to drive the compressor than it would for a turbo that sees more heat energy.
Do you have test data for the cooling the pipes provide? Considering the speed at which the gasses travel during boost, the fact that the surface to volume ratio of a single pipe is poor and the fact that charge air has less temperature differential to the ambient air than exhaust air, 50% seems high to me. And under what conditions? Intercoolers do more than just transfer heat. They absorb it acting like heatsinks to be cooled both externally just about all the time and internally when off-boost. This is something pipes are not going to be able to do well as there is not as much mass or effective cooling.
Better weight transfer? That's dependent on the car. Perhaps you can call it more rear weight transfer, but given the weight of a turbo itself, it would probably shift weight less than 1% to the rear. And better traction would also only apply to a RWD car. FWD cars would end up with less percentage of it's weight over it's drivewheels.
Less noise? I never heard a difference in noise when I put a turbo in my last car. At lease none from the engine compartment. And sure a divorced wastegate will be quieter on a rear mounted sytem since it's running through the stock cats(if still equipped) and piping.
Better cooling capacity? Perhaps the engine will run cooler than a traditionally mounted system, but will not increase the cooling capacity of a NA motor. You're adding more power to the motor. This makes the engine run hotter. The turbo sytem, rear mounted or traditionally mounted will not cool the motor to any degree.
This system will add power to a NA motor. But the FAQ is misleading, inaccurate, and/or unclear. The message seems to focus not on more power, but rather on some of the side benefits, which really aren't all that relevant to making more power. They are things that are for the most part, acceptable, and in many cases controllable. I don't mind that this product exists and that it is sold, but what the FAQ fails to mention are the negative aspects of the system. Typical of any business marketting a product. But this FAQ in particular is a lot more contradicting and misleading than most. Perhaps on par with the type of claims made by Tornado Air systems.
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Originally Posted by KPierson
Hey Brex hows it going? I checked out the info, looks interesting. I would have some major concerns before I would let them test my car, but new products are always interesting.
Thanks for the info,
Thanks for the info,
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Originally Posted by CKwik
The FAQ quoted on that link(read below for my response):
... (cutting off the comments in middle)
This system will add power to a NA motor. But the FAQ is misleading, inaccurate, and/or unclear. The message seems to focus not on more power, but rather on some of the side benefits, which really aren't all that relevant to making more power. They are things that are for the most part, acceptable, and in many cases controllable. I don't mind that this product exists and that it is sold, but what the FAQ fails to mention are the negative aspects of the system. Typical of any business marketting a product. But this FAQ in particular is a lot more contradicting and misleading than most. Perhaps on par with the type of claims made by Tornado Air systems.
... (cutting off the comments in middle)
This system will add power to a NA motor. But the FAQ is misleading, inaccurate, and/or unclear. The message seems to focus not on more power, but rather on some of the side benefits, which really aren't all that relevant to making more power. They are things that are for the most part, acceptable, and in many cases controllable. I don't mind that this product exists and that it is sold, but what the FAQ fails to mention are the negative aspects of the system. Typical of any business marketting a product. But this FAQ in particular is a lot more contradicting and misleading than most. Perhaps on par with the type of claims made by Tornado Air systems.
Of course your concerns are valid, and I am gathering all these inputs (from few boards that we post similiar thread on) and send them to STS for answer. I thank you for taking the time to review this information.
Andy (aka Brex)
V6Performance.net Inc.
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Originally Posted by pfizzle
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Originally Posted by KPierson
Brex, was my face not familiar enough? I guess I should have clarified - I'm KPTech on V6P.
Take it easy!
Take it easy!
I know it is you.
Sorry, sometimes I am doing multiple things at once and forgot to say hello to you. My bad. 
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