Air bag deployed as tech tried to change shifter.
#31
09-24-2003 | 04:46 AM
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Re: Air bag deployed as tech tried to change shifter.
Sammy,
As a lawyer who does work for an unnamed car manufacturer, I can tell you that in most cases, no manufacturer will EVER voluntarily admit liability for an airbag problem. Although we can settle most cases involving defects, the manufacturer I work for, as a policy, requires us to take such cases to trial instead. Most of the time, if the manufacturer gets sued, we try to lay the blame on someone else, or the consumer - for example, I have had cases where the consumer was installing some accessories and inadvertantly caused the airbag to go off. Or, the dealership's techs fudge the repair, and caused it to go off. I guess the bottom line is, a manufacturer never wants to admit that an airbag is defective, because one admission will start an avalanche of claims that a similiar vehicle's airbag system didn't go off, etc. So blame it on the lawyers, I guess.
Regardless of lawyer tactics, there is one way for sure you can figure out what happened, and who was responsible - get the dealership or Infiniti to agree to download and interpret the data in the airbag's computer module. These modules record everything that caused the sensors to trigger the airbag. I believe a short in the system WILL show up as such. I think it may also record the time of the event, as well.
Also - if you do decide to pursue legal action - make sure you hold onto the deployed airbag and all parts associated with it. In the US (not sure of Canada), it will be a defense (for the manufacturer) if you do not have the allegedly defective part to prove your case.
Good luck,
-B
As a lawyer who does work for an unnamed car manufacturer, I can tell you that in most cases, no manufacturer will EVER voluntarily admit liability for an airbag problem. Although we can settle most cases involving defects, the manufacturer I work for, as a policy, requires us to take such cases to trial instead. Most of the time, if the manufacturer gets sued, we try to lay the blame on someone else, or the consumer - for example, I have had cases where the consumer was installing some accessories and inadvertantly caused the airbag to go off. Or, the dealership's techs fudge the repair, and caused it to go off. I guess the bottom line is, a manufacturer never wants to admit that an airbag is defective, because one admission will start an avalanche of claims that a similiar vehicle's airbag system didn't go off, etc. So blame it on the lawyers, I guess.
Regardless of lawyer tactics, there is one way for sure you can figure out what happened, and who was responsible - get the dealership or Infiniti to agree to download and interpret the data in the airbag's computer module. These modules record everything that caused the sensors to trigger the airbag. I believe a short in the system WILL show up as such. I think it may also record the time of the event, as well.
Also - if you do decide to pursue legal action - make sure you hold onto the deployed airbag and all parts associated with it. In the US (not sure of Canada), it will be a defense (for the manufacturer) if you do not have the allegedly defective part to prove your case.
Good luck,
-B
#32
09-24-2003 | 08:15 AM
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From: Toronto East
Re: Air bag deployed as tech tried to change shifter.
The problem with having Infiniti download and interpret the data is that "they" are still the ones interpreting the data and there is no way to know if their actual findings will be presented to me or anybody else for that matter.
That was one of the first questions that I had asked the service manager when I took the car in was if they could somehow look at the air bag computer and determine the cause and he said that they didn't have any equipment that would be able to do it. They would have to send the module to Infiniti Japan to have them interpret the data. I'm not so sure that I would ever find out why it happened.
Silverstone 6MT Maya DTM 20's
That was one of the first questions that I had asked the service manager when I took the car in was if they could somehow look at the air bag computer and determine the cause and he said that they didn't have any equipment that would be able to do it. They would have to send the module to Infiniti Japan to have them interpret the data. I'm not so sure that I would ever find out why it happened.
Silverstone 6MT Maya DTM 20's
#33
09-24-2003 | 10:05 AM
Re: Air bag deployed as tech tried to change shifter.
have you gotten the estimate to fix this yet?
Clearly, the dealership never should have been told that anyone was rooting around in there. It has been my experience that with most dealerships, if there is ANY way or possible reason for them to deny a warranty claim/repair they will do it. I would have told them you had no idea what happened, the car was parked and it just went off. And i would have removed any aftermarket items you had installed that the dealership could remotely blame for causing it.
Take the advice given above, give a different dealership a shot, this time tell them you have no idea how it happened... car was just sitting there. And take out all your aftermarket stuff, so they can't blame it on that!
03 6MT coupe, red/willow, premium, aero, splash guards, alum pedals, clear corners, 15% tint
Clearly, the dealership never should have been told that anyone was rooting around in there. It has been my experience that with most dealerships, if there is ANY way or possible reason for them to deny a warranty claim/repair they will do it. I would have told them you had no idea what happened, the car was parked and it just went off. And i would have removed any aftermarket items you had installed that the dealership could remotely blame for causing it.
Take the advice given above, give a different dealership a shot, this time tell them you have no idea how it happened... car was just sitting there. And take out all your aftermarket stuff, so they can't blame it on that!
03 6MT coupe, red/willow, premium, aero, splash guards, alum pedals, clear corners, 15% tint
#34
09-24-2003 | 10:25 AM
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From: Toronto East
Re: Air bag deployed as tech tried to change shifter.
The only problem is that is that I am sure that my car has been "red flagged" as someone here had put it. This matter was already taken up by the Infiniti head office and they know my serial number and all of my details, so I'm sure that it wouldn't fly. I just have to use this as a learning experience and the next time, if there is one, will be to lie my face off and let them prove me wrong.
BTW, they called me today to tell me the cost of the air bag was over $950 CDN, which I thought wasn't too bad, but then they told me that the dash is a separate item at $900 CDN as well as labour of 6 hours to change it. Talk about an expensive lesson.
Silverstone 6MT Maya DTM 20's
BTW, they called me today to tell me the cost of the air bag was over $950 CDN, which I thought wasn't too bad, but then they told me that the dash is a separate item at $900 CDN as well as labour of 6 hours to change it. Talk about an expensive lesson.
Silverstone 6MT Maya DTM 20's
#35
09-24-2003 | 11:17 AM
#36
09-24-2003 | 12:24 PM
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Re: Air bag deployed as tech tried to change shifter.
Lie, lie, lie? Never tell the truth? The moron/Bozo is gudpg35, not the dealer.
When will people learn to take responsibility for their own actions? Blaming an Infiniti dealer and/or Nissan Canada for damage most likely caused by non-dealership personnel (not trained to work on Infiniti vehicles) is just plain STUPID. If you go to aftermarket businesses, you take your chances.
For the record, Nissan Canada did err by not sending a representative to inspect the vehicle. The root cause must be determined before the car is put back into service, otherwise, the problem may still exist. It's also the best way to cover themselves from customers in a state of denial.
For the record, SammyJL, your installer didn't save your life, he almost ended it. Most OEM dealerships wouldn't allow you in the service bay, let alone the vehicle, while work was being performed.
When will people learn to take responsibility for their own actions? Blaming an Infiniti dealer and/or Nissan Canada for damage most likely caused by non-dealership personnel (not trained to work on Infiniti vehicles) is just plain STUPID. If you go to aftermarket businesses, you take your chances.
For the record, Nissan Canada did err by not sending a representative to inspect the vehicle. The root cause must be determined before the car is put back into service, otherwise, the problem may still exist. It's also the best way to cover themselves from customers in a state of denial.
For the record, SammyJL, your installer didn't save your life, he almost ended it. Most OEM dealerships wouldn't allow you in the service bay, let alone the vehicle, while work was being performed.
#37
09-24-2003 | 12:50 PM
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From: Little Rock
Re: Air bag deployed as tech tried to change shifter.
I agree, even if they have to send the module to japan, if you can find alternate transporation, let it be analyzed. You mentioned having a kid in the car sometimes.. but ALL means, let the root cause be found.
However, I would ask the installer, perhaps on the side off the record, what happened. If he did just jam a screw driver down there or really smacked/pulled the harness, he can save you alot of time.
If nothing could be checked, not sure I would trust the car. I mean, I would cringe at every speed bump.
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bs g35c lth/prem - a poser with no lsd
However, I would ask the installer, perhaps on the side off the record, what happened. If he did just jam a screw driver down there or really smacked/pulled the harness, he can save you alot of time.
If nothing could be checked, not sure I would trust the car. I mean, I would cringe at every speed bump.
----------------------------------------------------
bs g35c lth/prem - a poser with no lsd
#38
09-24-2003 | 02:51 PM
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From: Toronto East
Re: Air bag deployed as tech tried to change shifter.
1st, I never said that the installer saved my life, I said that this forum did.
2nd, I'm not blaming Infiniti for damages, I am simply asking them to realize that there is no way that by taking off the shift console cover, as instructed in there own TSB, that the air bag should deploy. This is simply unsafe and poorly designed and should be covered under warranty and the cause found and corrected. People will always want to do the own modifications to some extent and should be able to do them safely without worries of an air bag going off in their face.
3rd, I think that it is ludicrous that Infiniti is not even willing to pinpoint the area of the cause. Remember, the installer may not even have caused this to deploy, it may have been a random occurance. Who knows???
I can understand Infiniti's arguement that the car was tampered with causing the warranty for this issue to become void, but this guy didn't even care to prove to me that the installer did it.
Oh, and another thing, the installer let me in the car because there is usually no danger involved with doing what he was doing. In his numerous years of experience, he has never, ever had an air bag deploy for any reason by doing a mod to the interior of the car.
Silverstone 6MT Maya DTM 20's
2nd, I'm not blaming Infiniti for damages, I am simply asking them to realize that there is no way that by taking off the shift console cover, as instructed in there own TSB, that the air bag should deploy. This is simply unsafe and poorly designed and should be covered under warranty and the cause found and corrected. People will always want to do the own modifications to some extent and should be able to do them safely without worries of an air bag going off in their face.
3rd, I think that it is ludicrous that Infiniti is not even willing to pinpoint the area of the cause. Remember, the installer may not even have caused this to deploy, it may have been a random occurance. Who knows???
I can understand Infiniti's arguement that the car was tampered with causing the warranty for this issue to become void, but this guy didn't even care to prove to me that the installer did it.
Oh, and another thing, the installer let me in the car because there is usually no danger involved with doing what he was doing. In his numerous years of experience, he has never, ever had an air bag deploy for any reason by doing a mod to the interior of the car.
Silverstone 6MT Maya DTM 20's
#39
09-24-2003 | 03:26 PM
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Re: Air bag deployed as tech tried to change shifter.
tpware,
I did ask the installer personally as well as others in the shop and they all said that he wasn't anywhere near wires just the shifter.
You are right about the car, I am not sure that I would trust it again if someone doesn't give me an answer as to why this happened. I already said that this will probably be my last Infiniti vehicle if nobody helps me.
Silverstone 6MT Maya DTM 20's
I did ask the installer personally as well as others in the shop and they all said that he wasn't anywhere near wires just the shifter.
You are right about the car, I am not sure that I would trust it again if someone doesn't give me an answer as to why this happened. I already said that this will probably be my last Infiniti vehicle if nobody helps me.
Silverstone 6MT Maya DTM 20's
#40
09-24-2003 | 03:43 PM
Re: Air bag deployed as tech tried to change shifter.
"When will people learn to take responsibility for their own actions? Blaming an Infiniti dealer and/or Nissan Canada for damage most likely caused by non-dealership personnel (not trained to work on Infiniti vehicles) is just plain STUPID. If you go to aftermarket businesses, you take your chances."
.......perhaps if more of the Infiniti dealers would take some responsibility, it would lead less people to these kinds of sentiments about lying to dealerships.
As far as aftermarket goes, make no mistake, Dealers send cars, even before they are sold to aftermarket shops to have aftermarket items installed. This happens ALL THE TIME. I know first hand, as my car was sent to an aftermarket shop BY THE DEALER for an installation, before i even purchased my car. When i took it in for warranty work on what i thought was Infiniti installed OEM equipment, i was denied. Technically, the dealer had voided the warranty before the car was ever even sold.
Ultimately, i got my issue resolved, but it was not an easy process. Clearly the warranty was misrepresented to me at the time of sale, which is a violation of Federal Law.
Care to take a count of how many people here have been lied to by a dealership? I would hate to think what the percentage is.
Not saying its right, just saying many dealers lie to customers all the time.... and it leads people to feel they have to lie in return to the dealers get anything done.
03 6MT coupe, red/willow, premium, aero, splash guards, alum pedals, clear corners, 15% tint
.......perhaps if more of the Infiniti dealers would take some responsibility, it would lead less people to these kinds of sentiments about lying to dealerships.
As far as aftermarket goes, make no mistake, Dealers send cars, even before they are sold to aftermarket shops to have aftermarket items installed. This happens ALL THE TIME. I know first hand, as my car was sent to an aftermarket shop BY THE DEALER for an installation, before i even purchased my car. When i took it in for warranty work on what i thought was Infiniti installed OEM equipment, i was denied. Technically, the dealer had voided the warranty before the car was ever even sold.
Ultimately, i got my issue resolved, but it was not an easy process. Clearly the warranty was misrepresented to me at the time of sale, which is a violation of Federal Law.
Care to take a count of how many people here have been lied to by a dealership? I would hate to think what the percentage is.
Not saying its right, just saying many dealers lie to customers all the time.... and it leads people to feel they have to lie in return to the dealers get anything done.
03 6MT coupe, red/willow, premium, aero, splash guards, alum pedals, clear corners, 15% tint
#41
09-24-2003 | 03:53 PM
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From: Toronto East
#42
09-24-2003 | 03:53 PM
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Re: Air bag deployed as tech tried to change shifter.
99213 is obviously a lurker completely lacking any common sense or rational thought and is in all essense nothing more than a baboon with typing skills. Look "Bozo", as was mentioned in the forum, a wire shorting alone should NOT cause air bag deployment in any vehicle, regardless of an aftermarket installers attempt to install something on the vehicle.
Responses such as your as numb down the intellegence level of all users on the forum and everyone who has read your pathetic excuse for a response. I assume you work for a dealership and would appreciate if you would keep your petty insults to yourself.
Responses such as your as numb down the intellegence level of all users on the forum and everyone who has read your pathetic excuse for a response. I assume you work for a dealership and would appreciate if you would keep your petty insults to yourself.
#43
09-24-2003 | 05:36 PM
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Re: Air bag deployed as tech tried to change shifter.
You can definitely deploy an airbag by shorting the wrong wire.
That's the very reason that you're supposed to disconnect the battery before working on the vehicle whenever there's even the most remote chance that you'll be working near the airbag system wiring (which is bright yellow, by the way)
That's the very reason that you're supposed to disconnect the battery before working on the vehicle whenever there's even the most remote chance that you'll be working near the airbag system wiring (which is bright yellow, by the way)
#44
09-24-2003 | 11:45 PM
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Re: Air bag deployed as tech tried to change shifter.
What gdupg35 and I are trying to say is that the system should be designed in such a way so that if for some reason a wire should short out, it does not cause the air bag to deploy rather maybe a relay should blow or some other device. There are all kinds of reasons that a wire can short (heat, water, loose fittings etc..) and not necessarily because of something the owner or anybody else did.
Silverstone 6MT Maya DTM 20's
Silverstone 6MT Maya DTM 20's
#45
09-25-2003 | 01:59 AM
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Re: Air bag deployed as tech tried to change shifter.
1. The module does not have to be sent back to Japan to be tested. Does that mean that every American car's part has to be sent back to Detroit, every BMW's back to Stuttgart? Please. It's a handheld device that plugs into the module, and it's a relatively simple device that just shows alpha numeric codes. They just didn't want to chance showing you the codes, because then you could probably call someone knowledgeable and have them look up the code.
I would insist that the code be read, and placed in your file - because if this data gets lost, guess what - if it happens again, you face an uphill battle to prove it was the same defect. Whatever happens, make it clear to the dealership that you do NOT authorize the disposal of the airbag or its components.
2. Yes, you have been red-flagged. Once in the system, the car's entire history of repair (at Infiniti dealerships) will be on file.
3. I would just bitch until the cows come home. You're right - if this problem is unresolved, and the driver airbag goes off while driving - what happens then? (not likely, but hey, the average guy doesn't know that). Remember that unless you can clear up the problem, getting rid of the car might be a problem too.
As for designing the system better - yeah it should be done, if possible - but manufacturers always have to balance what's possible with what is realistic (cost - remember the Pinto?). And if the failure rate of the components themselves is really low, then unfortunately, it's highly unrealistic that they will make the design perfect.
B
I would insist that the code be read, and placed in your file - because if this data gets lost, guess what - if it happens again, you face an uphill battle to prove it was the same defect. Whatever happens, make it clear to the dealership that you do NOT authorize the disposal of the airbag or its components.
2. Yes, you have been red-flagged. Once in the system, the car's entire history of repair (at Infiniti dealerships) will be on file.
3. I would just bitch until the cows come home. You're right - if this problem is unresolved, and the driver airbag goes off while driving - what happens then? (not likely, but hey, the average guy doesn't know that). Remember that unless you can clear up the problem, getting rid of the car might be a problem too.
As for designing the system better - yeah it should be done, if possible - but manufacturers always have to balance what's possible with what is realistic (cost - remember the Pinto?). And if the failure rate of the components themselves is really low, then unfortunately, it's highly unrealistic that they will make the design perfect.
B