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Quote:
You can still spin the wheels with vdc on. especially in the rain or cold and going in a straight line when the vdc doesn't expect it.Originally Posted by livinglegend
^ no, but it does a pretty good job of it, and if you can still manage to have traction problems in the rain with the vdc on then its not the car, its the driver. RWD platforms are the most forgiving and controllable out there, you just need common sense and experience driving in general.
and errr, did you meant "aren't" instead of are? About the only thing less forgiving than fr are mr and rr...
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thats true, but as I said, If you have the vdc on and are having low traction issues then its not the cars fault. its not like the G has 700 hp...
also, I did mean "are". but not in the sense you are saying. I wasnt differentiating between engine placement, just where the drive wheels are. Between FWD/AWD/RWD, RWD is the easiest to control in a loss of control situation to the average motorist. Example: you're driving your FWD car in the snow and the back end starts to come around. instinct tells you to let off the accelerator but in fact, you need to give more power to the front wheels to keep the car in shape. It plays against the senses whereas with RWD, if you lost control you let off the accelerator and the back end comes back into shape. Then theres AWD. great, great fun when you know how to use it, but the average uneducated driver assumes that you can just give it gas whenever and go wherever. Its very forgiving but if you lose control with AWD it can be very sudden and drastic and most people do not know how to compensate for that. Ergo, RWD is GENERALLY more forgiving and easily controlled than other platforms out there. ya dig?
also, I did mean "are". but not in the sense you are saying. I wasnt differentiating between engine placement, just where the drive wheels are. Between FWD/AWD/RWD, RWD is the easiest to control in a loss of control situation to the average motorist. Example: you're driving your FWD car in the snow and the back end starts to come around. instinct tells you to let off the accelerator but in fact, you need to give more power to the front wheels to keep the car in shape. It plays against the senses whereas with RWD, if you lost control you let off the accelerator and the back end comes back into shape. Then theres AWD. great, great fun when you know how to use it, but the average uneducated driver assumes that you can just give it gas whenever and go wherever. Its very forgiving but if you lose control with AWD it can be very sudden and drastic and most people do not know how to compensate for that. Ergo, RWD is GENERALLY more forgiving and easily controlled than other platforms out there. ya dig?
Registered User
Quote:
also, I did mean "are". but not in the sense you are saying. I wasnt differentiating between engine placement, just where the drive wheels are. Between FWD/AWD/RWD, RWD is the easiest to control in a loss of control situation to the average motorist. Example: you're driving your FWD car in the snow and the back end starts to come around. instinct tells you to let off the accelerator but in fact, you need to give more power to the front wheels to keep the car in shape. It plays against the senses whereas with RWD, if you lost control you let off the accelerator and the back end comes back into shape. Then theres AWD. great, great fun when you know how to use it, but the average uneducated driver assumes that you can just give it gas whenever and go wherever. Its very forgiving but if you lose control with AWD it can be very sudden and drastic and most people do not know how to compensate for that. Ergo, RWD is GENERALLY more forgiving and easily controlled than other platforms out there. ya dig?
300 hp is a lot. enough to notice the spinning with vdc on. I never turn off vdc on the streets, and I can tell when the tires are spinning when it's too cold for my tires in the morning, or when there is rain. I can easily power-over my car in the rain with vdc on. I've never tried to see if I can spin out completely though, but I can definitely get it to power over.Originally Posted by livinglegend
thats true, but as I said, If you have the vdc on and are having low traction issues then its not the cars fault. its not like the G has 700 hp...also, I did mean "are". but not in the sense you are saying. I wasnt differentiating between engine placement, just where the drive wheels are. Between FWD/AWD/RWD, RWD is the easiest to control in a loss of control situation to the average motorist. Example: you're driving your FWD car in the snow and the back end starts to come around. instinct tells you to let off the accelerator but in fact, you need to give more power to the front wheels to keep the car in shape. It plays against the senses whereas with RWD, if you lost control you let off the accelerator and the back end comes back into shape. Then theres AWD. great, great fun when you know how to use it, but the average uneducated driver assumes that you can just give it gas whenever and go wherever. Its very forgiving but if you lose control with AWD it can be very sudden and drastic and most people do not know how to compensate for that. Ergo, RWD is GENERALLY more forgiving and easily controlled than other platforms out there. ya dig?
And no, I don't dig. There's a reason most production cars are ff, and not just for the price.
All production cars are neutral understeer balanced, and ff is easier to control in most situations. There is a reason for this. We are considering an average driver. For the average driver, the first response to something bad happening is to lift off the gas pedal. The second is to hit the brakes.
Situation 1: You have a lead foot and stomp on the gas mid corner
FWD: oh no, you have understeer and head towards the outside. you lift and the car turns more, and you stay on the road, yay.
4WD: in effect, same as above, though you can accelerate more before you get under
RWD: Whoops, oversteer, depending on how long you left your foot on, you are now looking at the apex/infield/curb. You lift off the gas, you weight shift your car forward, you make a complete spin. gg. You need to have just enough gas on and countersteer, but can the average driver do this?
Situation 2: You oversped into a corner and keep your brakes on while turning
all drivetrains: depending on your braking and brake modulation and turning, you either under-rotate and fall off the outside of the road, or you over-rotate and fall off the outside of the road
Situation 3: You oversped into the corner, and try to turn in.
All drivetrains: you slowly scrub speed and and maybe you stay on the road, maybe you fall off the outside. While scrubbing speed, depending on your weight distribution, you may start oversteering. This is basically completely uncontrollable for all but expert drivers in any drivetrain. This will happen more with more weight on the rear, where the weight shift from scrubbing speed is enough to make the car go from from understeer balanced to oversteer. IE it will be more likely in rwd than fwd and 4wd because of the extra drivetrain weight (or engine in mr and rr).
Situation 4: You induce over-rotation by pure weight shift (ie swedish moose test)
FWD: you need to mash the gas. The harder you mash the better.
4wd: same as above.
RWD: you need to press the gas a little, but not too much to the point you get power over. Then you will need to modulate the throttle with your steering when the car snaps back the other way. If you are telling me the average rwd driver finds this "natural" Then I guess I am a far below average driver.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by livinglegend
thats true, but as I said, If you have the vdc on and are having low traction issues then its not the cars fault. its not like the G has 700 hp...
also, I did mean "are". but not in the sense you are saying. I wasnt differentiating between engine placement, just where the drive wheels are. Between FWD/AWD/RWD, RWD is the easiest to control in a loss of control situation to the average motorist. Example: you're driving your FWD car in the snow and the back end starts to come around. instinct tells you to let off the accelerator but in fact, you need to give more power to the front wheels to keep the car in shape. It plays against the senses whereas with RWD, if you lost control you let off the accelerator and the back end comes back into shape. Then theres AWD. great, great fun when you know how to use it, but the average uneducated driver assumes that you can just give it gas whenever and go wherever. Its very forgiving but if you lose control with AWD it can be very sudden and drastic and most people do not know how to compensate for that. Ergo, RWD is GENERALLY more forgiving and easily controlled than other platforms out there. ya dig?
300 hp is a lot. enough to notice the spinning with vdc on. I never turn off vdc on the streets, and I can tell when the tires are spinning when it's too cold for my tires in the morning, or when there is rain. I can easily power-over my car in the rain with vdc on. I've never tried to see if I can spin out completely though, but I can definitely get it to power over.
And no, I don't dig. There's a reason most production cars are ff, and not just for the price.
All production cars are neutral understeer balanced, and ff is easier to control in most situations. There is a reason for this. We are considering an average driver. For the average driver, the first response to something bad happening is to lift off the gas pedal. The second is to hit the brakes.
Situation 1: You have a lead foot and stomp on the gas mid corner
FWD: oh no, you have understeer and head towards the outside. you lift and the car turns more, and you stay on the road, yay.
4WD: in effect, same as above, though you can accelerate more before you get under
RWD: Whoops, oversteer, depending on how long you left your foot on, you are now looking at the apex/infield/curb. You lift off the gas, you weight shift your car forward, you make a complete spin. gg. You need to have just enough gas on and countersteer, but can the average driver do this?
Situation 2: You oversped into a corner and keep your brakes on while turning
all drivetrains: depending on your braking and brake modulation and turning, you either under-rotate and fall off the outside of the road, or you over-rotate and fall off the outside of the road
Situation 3: You oversped into the corner, and try to turn in.
All drivetrains: you slowly scrub speed and and maybe you stay on the road, maybe you fall off the outside. While scrubbing speed, depending on your weight distribution, you may start oversteering. This is basically completely uncontrollable for all but expert drivers in any drivetrain. This will happen more with more weight on the rear, where the weight shift from scrubbing speed is enough to make the car go from from understeer balanced to oversteer. IE it will be more likely in rwd than fwd and 4wd because of the extra drivetrain weight (or engine in mr and rr).
Situation 4: You induce over-rotation by pure weight shift (ie swedish moose test)
FWD: you need to mash the gas. The harder you mash the better.
4wd: same as above.
RWD: you need to press the gas a little, but not too much to the point you get power over. Then you will need to modulate the throttle with your steering when the car snaps back the other way. If you are telling me the average rwd driver finds this "natural" Then I guess I am a far below average driver.
holy cow! you came up with that at 12:54 am? I wish I was that coherent at that time lol. Originally Posted by totopo
Quote: Originally Posted by livinglegend
thats true, but as I said, If you have the vdc on and are having low traction issues then its not the cars fault. its not like the G has 700 hp...
also, I did mean "are". but not in the sense you are saying. I wasnt differentiating between engine placement, just where the drive wheels are. Between FWD/AWD/RWD, RWD is the easiest to control in a loss of control situation to the average motorist. Example: you're driving your FWD car in the snow and the back end starts to come around. instinct tells you to let off the accelerator but in fact, you need to give more power to the front wheels to keep the car in shape. It plays against the senses whereas with RWD, if you lost control you let off the accelerator and the back end comes back into shape. Then theres AWD. great, great fun when you know how to use it, but the average uneducated driver assumes that you can just give it gas whenever and go wherever. Its very forgiving but if you lose control with AWD it can be very sudden and drastic and most people do not know how to compensate for that. Ergo, RWD is GENERALLY more forgiving and easily controlled than other platforms out there. ya dig?
300 hp is a lot. enough to notice the spinning with vdc on. I never turn off vdc on the streets, and I can tell when the tires are spinning when it's too cold for my tires in the morning, or when there is rain. I can easily power-over my car in the rain with vdc on. I've never tried to see if I can spin out completely though, but I can definitely get it to power over.
And no, I don't dig. There's a reason most production cars are ff, and not just for the price.
All production cars are neutral understeer balanced, and ff is easier to control in most situations. There is a reason for this. We are considering an average driver. For the average driver, the first response to something bad happening is to lift off the gas pedal. The second is to hit the brakes.
Situation 1: You have a lead foot and stomp on the gas mid corner
FWD: oh no, you have understeer and head towards the outside. you lift and the car turns more, and you stay on the road, yay.
4WD: in effect, same as above, though you can accelerate more before you get under
RWD: Whoops, oversteer, depending on how long you left your foot on, you are now looking at the apex/infield/curb. You lift off the gas, you weight shift your car forward, you make a complete spin. gg. You need to have just enough gas on and countersteer, but can the average driver do this?
Situation 2: You oversped into a corner and keep your brakes on while turning
all drivetrains: depending on your braking and brake modulation and turning, you either under-rotate and fall off the outside of the road, or you over-rotate and fall off the outside of the road
Situation 3: You oversped into the corner, and try to turn in.
All drivetrains: you slowly scrub speed and and maybe you stay on the road, maybe you fall off the outside. While scrubbing speed, depending on your weight distribution, you may start oversteering. This is basically completely uncontrollable for all but expert drivers in any drivetrain. This will happen more with more weight on the rear, where the weight shift from scrubbing speed is enough to make the car go from from understeer balanced to oversteer. IE it will be more likely in rwd than fwd and 4wd because of the extra drivetrain weight (or engine in mr and rr).
Situation 4: You induce over-rotation by pure weight shift (ie swedish moose test)
FWD: you need to mash the gas. The harder you mash the better.
4wd: same as above.
RWD: you need to press the gas a little, but not too much to the point you get power over. Then you will need to modulate the throttle with your steering when the car snaps back the other way. If you are telling me the average rwd driver finds this "natural" Then I guess I am a far below average driver.
but regardless, nice rebuttal.
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Quote:
95% of the G35 sedans out there are AWD. 4-wheels are a lot harder to spin than 2.Originally Posted by eneq
My brother has an 04 G sedan yet he does not have the skidding problem. Any idea why?
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Oh the heavy doors and dont stay put....VDC off in the rain...only in an empty parking lot for a quick drifting fix. I cut the corner of a turnabout here in TX on a freshly sprinkled pavement and barely hit the gas and did a 540 into on coming traffic. Only thing I could think of was "NOT MY NEW MEISTERS!!!!" But once I stopped and had no curb rash, I moved about my day.
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You should be happy about the doors! Every morning I get in my car and its like a driver or valet is shutting the door for me. You just have to time it right!