YOur car has a fatal flaw and I can prove it!
#16
06-02-2005 | 01:40 PM
Registered User
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 4,288
Likes: 3
#18
06-02-2005 | 01:42 PM
Smaller (narrower tires) have always been proven to perform better in wet and snow conditions. That's nothing new. Did you expect the VDC or the size of your tire (or lack of) would prevent you from a tail spin in such a case? It's funny to read how someone would call, to what is the norm (common sense) a "FATAL FLAW"! You know what the real fatal flaw in a G is? The LACK OF TRUNK SPACE DAMN IT! (but whos bitter)...
#19
06-02-2005 | 02:00 PM
Originally Posted by G35inGE
...He explained that wider sport tires with ABS are worse than the 15 inch little celica tires for ice and snow... ...His suggestion would be to use narrower tires with snow tread(maybe the KDW's) for winter driving. The justification is that wider tires while providing additional traction in the dry, provide less pounds per square inch of pressure in reduced traction events than a corresponding narrower tire...
I just don't understand what good the title is other than trying to pull people into the thread by making it seem more urgent or important than it is. I'm not crucifying the guy, I just see that he has both:
- explained that the problem was that his tires were unsuitable for the conditions, not his car, and
- the instructor answered his question as to what he should do in terms of dealing with this.
If the title of the thread had been "You Need Snow Tires During Winter!!!! , the only people dropping into the thread would be those with unpleasant, 2 or 3 word replies.
Not to be confused with my astute, yet lengthy, observations. 
clubs dead horse on way out
Last edited by GT-Ron; 06-02-2005 at 02:05 PM.
#21
06-02-2005 | 02:37 PM
Originally Posted by G35inGE
So, attended the German ADAC safety course yesterday with my G35C. One of the exercises involves driving over a watered-down plastic surface to simulate icy conditions. After the front tires cross, a hydraulic plate moves the rear wheels 6" to the left or right causing a tailspin. No problem, VDC is supposed to help right? I did 2 360's while holding the wheel straight. Next time around, turned off the VDC and did 2 more 360's. Ok, expected that. So, the next time as I brake traction, take control and attempt to correct with countersteer - no luck! tires are locking and unlocking attempting to correct as I correct. 4th try VDC off, same thing. 5th try I managed to stay on the track, but still got pretty sideways, countersteered, saved it, and then corrected it going the other way. 6th time, machine malfunctioned, and it was on to another exercise. So, me and another tricked out 325i "sport car" asked to the Instructor, WTF?
He explained that wider sport tires with ABS are worse than the 15 inch little celica tires for ice and snow. How is that possible? I have VDC and it is supposed to compensate? Nope, when the back end steps out, the side pressure on the front tire(centripal force) overwhelms the ABS causing them to lock up, this reduces the side pressure breaking the front wheels loose as well, allowing for less traction and another 360 or meet with stationary object.
His suggestion would be to use narrower tires with snow tread(maybe the KDW's) for winter driving. The justification is that wider tires while providing additional traction in the dry, provide less pounds per square inch of pressure in reduced traction events than a corresponding narrower tire(think of pounds per square inch of a 4" wide tire vs 7" tire with the same weight vehicle.)
So now what to do ?
I was greatly dissapointed that my "high speed safe car" was embarassed by a 10 yr old celica. Granted I did the speed slalom, emergency brake and avoid an object while still steering were all above par, but this makes me wonder.
Options -
1) Don't drive it under extremely wet, slightly icy, snow conditions
2) put all weather tires on and pray
3) Screw it, ride as fast as I want, I've got like 5 airbags anyway...
Your thoughts?
He explained that wider sport tires with ABS are worse than the 15 inch little celica tires for ice and snow. How is that possible? I have VDC and it is supposed to compensate? Nope, when the back end steps out, the side pressure on the front tire(centripal force) overwhelms the ABS causing them to lock up, this reduces the side pressure breaking the front wheels loose as well, allowing for less traction and another 360 or meet with stationary object.
His suggestion would be to use narrower tires with snow tread(maybe the KDW's) for winter driving. The justification is that wider tires while providing additional traction in the dry, provide less pounds per square inch of pressure in reduced traction events than a corresponding narrower tire(think of pounds per square inch of a 4" wide tire vs 7" tire with the same weight vehicle.)
So now what to do ?
I was greatly dissapointed that my "high speed safe car" was embarassed by a 10 yr old celica. Granted I did the speed slalom, emergency brake and avoid an object while still steering were all above par, but this makes me wonder.
Options -
1) Don't drive it under extremely wet, slightly icy, snow conditions
2) put all weather tires on and pray
3) Screw it, ride as fast as I want, I've got like 5 airbags anyway...
Your thoughts?
#22
06-02-2005 | 03:08 PM
Registered User
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 3,387
Likes: 23
From: Hawaii
First of all I have several questions:
1. 2 360's. Does this mean you ran the course twice and did a 360 each time, or ran it once and did a 720?
2. You are telling me the plate displaced the rears by 6 inches and the car did a 360? Are you certain it is not a 180?
3. What speed were you traveling for this test?
Some of my observations:
1. The Celica is a much lighter car than the G, so right off the bat it's going to be easier to correct.
2. The plate quickly displaces the rear end of the car (it would have to do this if you are to catch the rear tires of a moving car), this is not what I would think to be a fair simulation of icy conditions. The icy conditions would be a slower displacement.
3. Like the others are saying.......maximum performance tires in icy conditions. You need to look at this statement of fact and figure it out.
4. VDC is not the end all of driving, you still need to identify the road conditions and make corrections.
5. Sounds like you could use some time in a high performance driving school (me too, but I'm working on it).
1. 2 360's. Does this mean you ran the course twice and did a 360 each time, or ran it once and did a 720?
2. You are telling me the plate displaced the rears by 6 inches and the car did a 360? Are you certain it is not a 180?
3. What speed were you traveling for this test?
Some of my observations:
1. The Celica is a much lighter car than the G, so right off the bat it's going to be easier to correct.
2. The plate quickly displaces the rear end of the car (it would have to do this if you are to catch the rear tires of a moving car), this is not what I would think to be a fair simulation of icy conditions. The icy conditions would be a slower displacement.
3. Like the others are saying.......maximum performance tires in icy conditions. You need to look at this statement of fact and figure it out.
4. VDC is not the end all of driving, you still need to identify the road conditions and make corrections.
5. Sounds like you could use some time in a high performance driving school (me too, but I'm working on it).
#25
06-02-2005 | 04:57 PM
Originally Posted by G35inGE
So, attended the German ADAC safety course yesterday with my G35C. One of the exercises involves driving over a watered-down plastic surface to simulate icy conditions. After the front tires cross, a hydraulic plate moves the rear wheels 6" to the left or right causing a tailspin. No problem, VDC is supposed to help right? I did 2 360's while holding the wheel straight. Next time around, turned off the VDC and did 2 more 360's. Ok, expected that. So, the next time as I brake traction, take control and attempt to correct with countersteer - no luck! tires are locking and unlocking attempting to correct as I correct. 4th try VDC off, same thing. 5th try I managed to stay on the track, but still got pretty sideways, countersteered, saved it, and then corrected it going the other way. 6th time, machine malfunctioned, and it was on to another exercise. So, me and another tricked out 325i "sport car" asked to the Instructor, WTF?
He explained that wider sport tires with ABS are worse than the 15 inch little celica tires for ice and snow. How is that possible? I have VDC and it is supposed to compensate? Nope, when the back end steps out, the side pressure on the front tire(centripal force) overwhelms the ABS causing them to lock up, this reduces the side pressure breaking the front wheels loose as well, allowing for less traction and another 360 or meet with stationary object.
His suggestion would be to use narrower tires with snow tread(maybe the KDW's) for winter driving. The justification is that wider tires while providing additional traction in the dry, provide less pounds per square inch of pressure in reduced traction events than a corresponding narrower tire(think of pounds per square inch of a 4" wide tire vs 7" tire with the same weight vehicle.)
So now what to do ?
I was greatly dissapointed that my "high speed safe car" was embarassed by a 10 yr old celica. Granted I did the speed slalom, emergency brake and avoid an object while still steering were all above par, but this makes me wonder.
Options -
1) Don't drive it under extremely wet, slightly icy, snow conditions
2) put all weather tires on and pray
3) Screw it, ride as fast as I want, I've got like 5 airbags anyway...
Your thoughts?
He explained that wider sport tires with ABS are worse than the 15 inch little celica tires for ice and snow. How is that possible? I have VDC and it is supposed to compensate? Nope, when the back end steps out, the side pressure on the front tire(centripal force) overwhelms the ABS causing them to lock up, this reduces the side pressure breaking the front wheels loose as well, allowing for less traction and another 360 or meet with stationary object.
His suggestion would be to use narrower tires with snow tread(maybe the KDW's) for winter driving. The justification is that wider tires while providing additional traction in the dry, provide less pounds per square inch of pressure in reduced traction events than a corresponding narrower tire(think of pounds per square inch of a 4" wide tire vs 7" tire with the same weight vehicle.)
So now what to do ?
I was greatly dissapointed that my "high speed safe car" was embarassed by a 10 yr old celica. Granted I did the speed slalom, emergency brake and avoid an object while still steering were all above par, but this makes me wonder.
Options -
1) Don't drive it under extremely wet, slightly icy, snow conditions
2) put all weather tires on and pray
3) Screw it, ride as fast as I want, I've got like 5 airbags anyway...
Your thoughts?
That's not a fatal flaw!...it's simple physics and driver's knowledge and experience.
#26
06-02-2005 | 05:34 PM
Registered User
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 498
Likes: 0
From: MN, western subs
I'm new here and not well known or respected yet on this forum, but I can safely comment that the title of the post and the text that follows it is just plain retarded and should be locked. No offense (well...) LOL.
Sorta like saying...
"Watch out! Our car can bee driven off a cliff! You may actually die!"
Sorta like saying...
"Watch out! Our car can bee driven off a cliff! You may actually die!"
#27
06-02-2005 | 11:56 PM
Winter tires make a HUGE difference in ice and snow. Here in canada, it's just a fact of life that you have to buy a set of snows... No matter what your car is. I've got a 92 accord for a winter beater and that thing is awsome... well not really. It doesn't even have ABS. But a G with a good set of winter tires is pretty good. It's not the easiest car to drive in the snow but I believe it is how disciplined you are when you drive. After all, I see way more HUGE SUV's stuck in the ditch in a snow storm then G's.
#29
06-03-2005 | 12:41 AM
Registered User
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 148
Likes: 0
#30
06-03-2005 | 12:50 AM
skinny tires are better for traction in conditions like snow, deep water and mud. The reason being is that the skinny tire has a smaller contact patch so the weight of the car is more concentrated on a single point instead of being spreadout over a large surface area. The theory behind this is that since the weight is concentrated on a relatively small area the tire can easily cut through the snow, water or mud and make contact with the solid surface below, thus giving you more traction. A wider tire will just ride over the mud, water or snow and float so you have less traction.