Differences between all the grounding wires?
#16
12-30-2005, 06:00 PM
Originally Posted by MechEE
Some are snake oil, some are super snake oil, others are super turbo type R snake oil, and some are lizard oil. What a joke.
I guess we know where you stand on this mod!
FYI
3 different techs on 3 different occsions at my dealer commented better grounding was a good idea on this car since the OE was insufficient.
#17
12-30-2005, 08:32 PM
Originally Posted by MechEE
Good guess! Both. A good common low noise ground is clearly beneficial. My reasoning on grounding wires is as follows. If the OEM ground network was insufficient such that there was excessive ground bounce and degraded mileage / power / smoothness / etc, don't you think they would have spent the minimal extra $ to fix the issue to get the better EPA mileage numbers, break the 300 hp barrier, and ultimately sell more cars? And let's supposed for a minute that the stock system is in fact lacking. In that case, the car has been tuned from the factory to use the stock signals. If the MAF reads slightly low due to excessive current draw in the ignition system, then the car was tuned based on this low MAF reading, and adding grounding wires to "correct" this signal should only result in random "performance" changes across the board. Personally, I would not mess with it! And a good amount of your engine management system even outside the ECU uses digital communication anyway.
Good discussion!
#18
12-31-2005, 11:15 AM
#19
12-31-2005, 03:11 PM
Originally Posted by RBull
I guess we know where you stand on this mod!
FYI
3 different techs on 3 different occsions at my dealer commented better grounding was a good idea on this car since the OE was insufficient.
FYI
3 different techs on 3 different occsions at my dealer commented better grounding was a good idea on this car since the OE was insufficient.
Originally Posted by binar
Your assertion/assumption that this system (car) has been optimized, or as you put it "tuned from the factory to use the stock signals", may not be correct. Having working on complex embedded systems myself I, and probably you too, know that certain subsystems have better people, better designs, better management then other subsystems. Often times subsystem are deemed 'good enough' and work moves on. To have an optimal system, in which all subsystem are optimized is extreamly rare. That type of architecture is usually reserver/required by product that are used extraterrestrially, where you can't make changes once it is off the earth. I would propose that this system (car) is not optimized and can benifit from some additional tuning. IMHO. Good discussion!
Good discussion!And, in my opinion, the stock system is probably FINE! It takes absolutely minimal effort for the designers to check out the stock electrical system for exessive noise, ground bounce, etc. I am SURE they do this, I do this on $100 designs! They also know EXACTLY how much current every device in the car is taking and how much current for which each wire must be sized.
People saying they can feel the power, get better mileage, shift faster, etc etc is all characteristic of normal placebo mods. Show me some ground scope traces before and after a super type R hyper grounding kit of a critical engine sensor that has at least some partial impact on something relating to the combustion process to affect power and I'll start to consider the possibility. Otherwise it's simply speculation, and any "dyno proven" gains are within dyno error and environment variability.
#21
12-31-2005, 06:23 PM
#22
12-31-2005, 06:54 PM
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#23
12-31-2005, 07:37 PM
Originally Posted by MechEE
Ooo, techs!
Given that the stock management was at least semi intelligently designed for the stock system, altering all of the signals (assuming the stock ground system has problems and adding larger diameter wires solves the problem) does not clearly help or hurt performance / feeling / mileage / etc in any way, in my opinion. Okay, now the MAF read 100 mV higher on average because the ground voltage is reduced. So what? Did you gain 10 hp? Chances are the stock system was designed such that when the the stock "bad" MAF signal is seen, the correct amount of fuel is injected for that airflow. Now if the "fixed" system on average puts you at an incorrect place on the map that results in a slightly leaner mixture, then maybe that's responsible for any power people are feeling. Who knows! My point is that it's unpredictable and there's no way you can clearly say that it's beneficial.
And, in my opinion, the stock system is probably FINE! It takes absolutely minimal effort for the designers to check out the stock electrical system for exessive noise, ground bounce, etc. I am SURE they do this, I do this on $100 designs! They also know EXACTLY how much current every device in the car is taking and how much current for which each wire must be sized.
People saying they can feel the power, get better mileage, shift faster, etc etc is all characteristic of normal placebo mods. Show me some ground scope traces before and after a super type R hyper grounding kit of a critical engine sensor that has at least some partial impact on something relating to the combustion process to affect power and I'll start to consider the possibility. Otherwise it's simply speculation, and any "dyno proven" gains are within dyno error and environment variability.
Given that the stock management was at least semi intelligently designed for the stock system, altering all of the signals (assuming the stock ground system has problems and adding larger diameter wires solves the problem) does not clearly help or hurt performance / feeling / mileage / etc in any way, in my opinion. Okay, now the MAF read 100 mV higher on average because the ground voltage is reduced. So what? Did you gain 10 hp? Chances are the stock system was designed such that when the the stock "bad" MAF signal is seen, the correct amount of fuel is injected for that airflow. Now if the "fixed" system on average puts you at an incorrect place on the map that results in a slightly leaner mixture, then maybe that's responsible for any power people are feeling. Who knows! My point is that it's unpredictable and there's no way you can clearly say that it's beneficial.
And, in my opinion, the stock system is probably FINE! It takes absolutely minimal effort for the designers to check out the stock electrical system for exessive noise, ground bounce, etc. I am SURE they do this, I do this on $100 designs! They also know EXACTLY how much current every device in the car is taking and how much current for which each wire must be sized.
People saying they can feel the power, get better mileage, shift faster, etc etc is all characteristic of normal placebo mods. Show me some ground scope traces before and after a super type R hyper grounding kit of a critical engine sensor that has at least some partial impact on something relating to the combustion process to affect power and I'll start to consider the possibility. Otherwise it's simply speculation, and any "dyno proven" gains are within dyno error and environment variability.
I don't expect to convince you of anything. I understand what you are saying. All I have ever said about the grounding kit I have, is that is smooths out my idle and makes my throttle feel more linear. I don't have any signal traces to back up my assertion. I guess we will have to agree to disagree. Have a great New Years!
#24
12-31-2005, 07:50 PM
MechEE
Points well taken and I could accept some of what you are saying but..... ( there's always buts ) aren't we ( you and the manufacturer's EE's ) assuming that the total vehicle componets are staying inbalance and at the same tollerances 1, 2 or three plus years later after use and 'better' devices from what the car was manufactured with might help keep the componets more 'inbalance' as the car was designed to be originally when it left the factory.
I hope I got my thoughts across okay, if not let me know and I'll try it again.
Thanks for elaborating from what you stated in your first post and yes this has turned into an interesting thread and although there are some differences of opinion on this, I hope we can keep it on it's topic
Points well taken and I could accept some of what you are saying but..... ( there's always buts
) aren't we ( you and the manufacturer's EE's ) assuming that the total vehicle componets are staying inbalance and at the same tollerances 1, 2 or three plus years later after use and 'better' devices from what the car was manufactured with might help keep the componets more 'inbalance' as the car was designed to be originally when it left the factory.I hope I got my thoughts across okay, if not let me know and I'll try it again.
Thanks for elaborating from what you stated in your first post and yes this has turned into an interesting thread and although there are some differences of opinion on this, I hope we can keep it on it's topic
#25
01-02-2006, 11:25 PM
Originally Posted by O NO
MechEE
Points well taken and I could accept some of what you are saying but..... ( there's always buts ) aren't we ( you and the manufacturer's EE's ) assuming that the total vehicle componets are staying inbalance and at the same tollerances 1, 2 or three plus years later after use and 'better' devices from what the car was manufactured with might help keep the componets more 'inbalance' as the car was designed to be originally when it left the factory.
I hope I got my thoughts across okay, if not let me know and I'll try it again.
Thanks for elaborating from what you stated in your first post and yes this has turned into an interesting thread and although there are some differences of opinion on this, I hope we can keep it on it's topic
Points well taken and I could accept some of what you are saying but..... ( there's always buts
) aren't we ( you and the manufacturer's EE's ) assuming that the total vehicle componets are staying inbalance and at the same tollerances 1, 2 or three plus years later after use and 'better' devices from what the car was manufactured with might help keep the componets more 'inbalance' as the car was designed to be originally when it left the factory.I hope I got my thoughts across okay, if not let me know and I'll try it again.
Thanks for elaborating from what you stated in your first post and yes this has turned into an interesting thread and although there are some differences of opinion on this, I hope we can keep it on it's topic
#30
01-03-2006, 08:58 AM