G35S 6MT baseline DYNO before exhaust..
#16
01-13-2004, 01:13 PM
#17
01-13-2004, 01:17 PM
Re: G35S 6MT baseline DYNO before exhaust..
Hey, Xmax
I know its confusing sometimes. However, I was doing some research and found real numbers with stock VQ30DE 97-98 both manual and auto Maxima numbers.
Manual: 15-17% "loss"
Automatic: 21-22% "loss"
That goes for both torque and horsepower.
So Manual 4th gen Maxima (95-99) usually DYNO 158-161whp and AUTO about 150-152.
190 * .80 = 150 (auto) - 21% loss
190 * .84 = 161.5 (manual) - 16% loss
In conclusion, it proves MANUAL tranny usually lose 16.5-18.5% and AUTO do 20-22%.
In addition, I dont see the significat difference between FWD and RWD in terms of drivetrain % loss.
The same % "loss" applies for G35, Z and others (auto and manual)
2004 G35s auto (bone stock)
-----------------------------------
2002 s/c Accord V6 auto
so far best 1/4 mile - 13.9@101.8
coming soon: custom internals, cams, performance auto tranny w/LSD
I know its confusing sometimes. However, I was doing some research and found real numbers with stock VQ30DE 97-98 both manual and auto Maxima numbers.
Manual: 15-17% "loss"
Automatic: 21-22% "loss"
That goes for both torque and horsepower.
So Manual 4th gen Maxima (95-99) usually DYNO 158-161whp and AUTO about 150-152.
190 * .80 = 150 (auto) - 21% loss
190 * .84 = 161.5 (manual) - 16% loss
In conclusion, it proves MANUAL tranny usually lose 16.5-18.5% and AUTO do 20-22%.
In addition, I dont see the significat difference between FWD and RWD in terms of drivetrain % loss.
The same % "loss" applies for G35, Z and others (auto and manual)
2004 G35s auto (bone stock)
-----------------------------------
2002 s/c Accord V6 auto
so far best 1/4 mile - 13.9@101.8
coming soon: custom internals, cams, performance auto tranny w/LSD
#18
01-13-2004, 01:31 PM
Re: G35S 6MT baseline DYNO before exhaust..
Oops, forgot something to add.
Despite the fact 190 crank HP is about right number for 4th gen Maxima based on DYNO numbers above.
It proves again based on DYNOs that manufactury claimed 260 HP for G35 sedan is underrated and should be between 270 (20% loss) and 273 (21%) loss.
Example: Gurgen's AUTO stock DYNO - 216whp
216WHP / 0.80 = 270 HP (20% loss)
216WHP / 0.79 = 273.4 HP (21% loss)
And if you take G35 sedan manual DYNO and take in consideration average 16% "loss" to the wheels
it should be around G35 coupe numbers.
2004 G35s auto (bone stock)
-----------------------------------
2002 s/c Accord V6 auto
so far best 1/4 mile - 13.9@101.8
coming soon: custom internals, cams, performance auto tranny w/LSD
Despite the fact 190 crank HP is about right number for 4th gen Maxima based on DYNO numbers above.
It proves again based on DYNOs that manufactury claimed 260 HP for G35 sedan is underrated and should be between 270 (20% loss) and 273 (21%) loss.
Example: Gurgen's AUTO stock DYNO - 216whp
216WHP / 0.80 = 270 HP (20% loss)
216WHP / 0.79 = 273.4 HP (21% loss)
And if you take G35 sedan manual DYNO and take in consideration average 16% "loss" to the wheels
it should be around G35 coupe numbers.
2004 G35s auto (bone stock)
-----------------------------------
2002 s/c Accord V6 auto
so far best 1/4 mile - 13.9@101.8
coming soon: custom internals, cams, performance auto tranny w/LSD
#19
01-14-2004, 12:16 AM
Re: G35S 6MT baseline DYNO before exhaust..
Oh ok...i got ya AV6...duh.....:banging my head against wall:.....cuz there is the driveshaft which does conclude to the 16% drivetrain loss.....so maybe this is how it goes:
10% loss for manual for FWD
15% loss for auto for FWD
16% loss for manual RWD
20% loss for auto RWD
and AWD is prolly a lil more?
Shift_DEZ' NUTS
www.midnightimpulse.com
10% loss for manual for FWD
15% loss for auto for FWD
16% loss for manual RWD
20% loss for auto RWD
and AWD is prolly a lil more?
Shift_DEZ' NUTS
www.midnightimpulse.com
#20
01-14-2004, 01:07 AM
Registered User
Re: G35S 6MT baseline DYNO before exhaust..
xmax
Your calcs are alittle off. As Serge (AV6) said... I had 217 rwhp and 260 crank. That's 17% loss.
With mods you assumed the crank hp didn't change - don't get it.
Estimating the same % loss for a modded car, I had (before exhaust) 240 / 0.83 = 289 hp crank.
that's before my exhuast/RT cats combo. As i was saying, the best news for me here is that autos are as fast as the MT's - in HP and in temrs of times. n3m, you are getting 14.2 1/4 mile right? i was getting 14.1 before my exhaust/RT cats.
Gurgen
Your calcs are alittle off. As Serge (AV6) said... I had 217 rwhp and 260 crank. That's 17% loss.
With mods you assumed the crank hp didn't change - don't get it.
Estimating the same % loss for a modded car, I had (before exhaust) 240 / 0.83 = 289 hp crank.
that's before my exhuast/RT cats combo. As i was saying, the best news for me here is that autos are as fast as the MT's - in HP and in temrs of times. n3m, you are getting 14.2 1/4 mile right? i was getting 14.1 before my exhaust/RT cats.
Gurgen
#21
01-14-2004, 01:36 AM
Re: G35S 6MT baseline DYNO before exhaust..
..........
that's before my exhuast/RT cats combo. As i was saying, the best news for me here is that autos are as fast as the MT's - in HP and in temrs of times. n3m, you are getting 14.2 1/4 mile right? i was getting 14.1 before my exhaust/RT cats.
..........
Perhaps I missed another thread from a different post, but I haven't the faintest idea where you get the "AT is as fast as MT in HP and times" bit. An automatic transmission both has increased frictional losses (less rwhp) and also normally shifts slower than a manual transmission with an experienced driver.
While you can get autos that shift as fast as manuals ("shift kit", "stall converter" -- shades of musclecar days) they still do not have less parasitic losses. Formula 1, if you remember, uses paddle-based computer controlled manual transmissions... aka the best of both worlds. Their trannies will shift in .15 seconds, something no human is going to pull off.
If you check any and all magazines' figures for manuals vs. automatics back to back, you'll find a 1/2 to one second different 0-60mph, depending on the engine mostly. Torquier engines like the G35's have less of a hit than something like an S2000. And of course brake torquing will raise the rpm levels and get you closer to your torque peak.
But you can't say that an auto will ever (well, at least currently) have the same power or acceleration as an identical manual... sorry.
Happy motoring!
Rick
P.S. I do have to say that short of the turbo kit you're apparently shooting for, your car is probably one of the most modified G35s around here. If you don't mind my asking, what is the rough damage report for all your changes?
that's before my exhuast/RT cats combo. As i was saying, the best news for me here is that autos are as fast as the MT's - in HP and in temrs of times. n3m, you are getting 14.2 1/4 mile right? i was getting 14.1 before my exhaust/RT cats.
..........
Perhaps I missed another thread from a different post, but I haven't the faintest idea where you get the "AT is as fast as MT in HP and times" bit. An automatic transmission both has increased frictional losses (less rwhp) and also normally shifts slower than a manual transmission with an experienced driver.
While you can get autos that shift as fast as manuals ("shift kit", "stall converter" -- shades of musclecar days) they still do not have less parasitic losses. Formula 1, if you remember, uses paddle-based computer controlled manual transmissions... aka the best of both worlds. Their trannies will shift in .15 seconds, something no human is going to pull off.
If you check any and all magazines' figures for manuals vs. automatics back to back, you'll find a 1/2 to one second different 0-60mph, depending on the engine mostly. Torquier engines like the G35's have less of a hit than something like an S2000. And of course brake torquing will raise the rpm levels and get you closer to your torque peak.
But you can't say that an auto will ever (well, at least currently) have the same power or acceleration as an identical manual... sorry.
Happy motoring!
Rick
P.S. I do have to say that short of the turbo kit you're apparently shooting for, your car is probably one of the most modified G35s around here. If you don't mind my asking, what is the rough damage report for all your changes?
#22
01-14-2004, 02:14 AM
Registered User
Re: G35S 6MT baseline DYNO before exhaust..
Well - I have got proof as to the ET's on the 1/4 mile - but that's another matter...
You are saying that the auto doesn;t shift as quickly as the MT with a good driver? You are kidding right? It shifts at least just as fast as a good driver - and MUCh MUCH faster than the MT with normal shifting...
Also, you are dismissing off-the line advantage of torque multiplication provided by the ATs, even without clutchpacks, or T/Cs (just by the nature of the AT's T/C).
MTs are faster than AT's because they have more gears and more aggressive gear ratios... not due to the 3-5% loss in the T/C (which I agree with). What I am saying, having the same wheel HP/torque, with a VERY GOOD DRIVER, the MT WILL take the AT, but not by a lot. rememeber, we are assuming PERFECT shifting point and speed... Also, given how unreliable our MTs are, I would'nt be powershifting very often unless I had an extended powertrain warranty...
Look at things realistically... And what about a rolling start? You will need to be A VERY GOOD DRIVER, an EXCELLENT one at that to shift into the RIGHT gear, whereas the auto will do that for you.
3-5% loss on one hand and the gain of torque multiplication and good consistency on the other, it's a wash !!!
I didn't want to turn this into a MT vs At debate - both have compelling pros and cons. If I were buying today - I would really have to think about it..
The damage on the engine/tranny mods is about 4K so far. Another few (more tha few actually) K for the TT.
Gurgen
<P ID="edit"><FONT class="small"><EM>Edited by gurgenpb on 01/13/04 11:23 PM.</EM></FONT></P>
You are saying that the auto doesn;t shift as quickly as the MT with a good driver? You are kidding right? It shifts at least just as fast as a good driver - and MUCh MUCH faster than the MT with normal shifting...
Also, you are dismissing off-the line advantage of torque multiplication provided by the ATs, even without clutchpacks, or T/Cs (just by the nature of the AT's T/C).
MTs are faster than AT's because they have more gears and more aggressive gear ratios... not due to the 3-5% loss in the T/C (which I agree with). What I am saying, having the same wheel HP/torque, with a VERY GOOD DRIVER, the MT WILL take the AT, but not by a lot. rememeber, we are assuming PERFECT shifting point and speed... Also, given how unreliable our MTs are, I would'nt be powershifting very often unless I had an extended powertrain warranty...
Look at things realistically... And what about a rolling start? You will need to be A VERY GOOD DRIVER, an EXCELLENT one at that to shift into the RIGHT gear, whereas the auto will do that for you.
3-5% loss on one hand and the gain of torque multiplication and good consistency on the other, it's a wash !!!
I didn't want to turn this into a MT vs At debate - both have compelling pros and cons. If I were buying today - I would really have to think about it..
The damage on the engine/tranny mods is about 4K so far. Another few (more tha few actually) K for the TT.
Gurgen
<P ID="edit"><FONT class="small"><EM>Edited by gurgenpb on 01/13/04 11:23 PM.</EM></FONT></P>
#23
01-14-2004, 11:07 AM
Re: G35S 6MT baseline DYNO before exhaust..
<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>
You will need to be A VERY GOOD DRIVER, an EXCELLENT one at that to shift into the RIGHT gear, whereas the auto will do that for you.
<hr></blockquote>
Gurgen, you right about that, however 1/4 miles proves that MANUAL car (stock) (considering a GOOD DRIVER) if faster then AUTO (stock) usually by .5 seconds due to different gear ratios. Simply put if manual driver misshift ... its his problem and auto will win. Now, when you start modding the car its different story, no wonder drag cars all autos or at least 95% of them.
Now, regarding "drivetrain loss" you again guys are wrong [img]/w3timages/icons/smile.gif[/img].
Both FWD and RWD cars have similar "% loss".
FWD manual = 15-18% loss
FWD auto = 21-23% loss
RWD manual = 15-18%
RWD auto = 21-22%
So Gurgen, I'd say even after TC your auto G loosing maybe not 22% but 20%.
I've seen those cocky coupe owners in one thread who still state that coupe has 20HP difference. DYNOs show otherwise - coupe and sedan WHP ARE SIMILAR. That proves again that SEDAN ACTUAL HORSEPOWER IS UNDERRATED and should be at least 270 up to 277 crank.
Examples:
1.RWD G35s auto at 217WHP assuming 20% loss (note: not 17%) equal 271 crank HP.
Formula: 217 / 0.80 = 271.25
2. RWD G35s auto at 217WHP assuming 22% loss equal 278 crank HP.
3. My FWD s/c Accord V6 auto DYNO at 264WHP found to be loosing 22% equal 338 crank HP - 264 / 0.78 = 338.46
So I'd say if Gurgen previous best DYNO was say 241 WHP, again assuming 20% loss for AUTO (not 17%) his crank horsepower would around 301.
241 / 0.80 = 301
Can you guys tell me how much auto coupe (stock) pushing at the wheels?
2004 G35s auto (bone stock)
-----------------------------------
2002 s/c Accord V6 auto
so far best 1/4 mile - 13.9@101.8
coming soon: custom internals, cams, performance auto tranny w/LSD
You will need to be A VERY GOOD DRIVER, an EXCELLENT one at that to shift into the RIGHT gear, whereas the auto will do that for you.
<hr></blockquote>
Gurgen, you right about that, however 1/4 miles proves that MANUAL car (stock) (considering a GOOD DRIVER) if faster then AUTO (stock) usually by .5 seconds due to different gear ratios. Simply put if manual driver misshift ... its his problem and auto will win. Now, when you start modding the car its different story, no wonder drag cars all autos or at least 95% of them.
Now, regarding "drivetrain loss" you again guys are wrong [img]/w3timages/icons/smile.gif[/img].
Both FWD and RWD cars have similar "% loss".
FWD manual = 15-18% loss
FWD auto = 21-23% loss
RWD manual = 15-18%
RWD auto = 21-22%
So Gurgen, I'd say even after TC your auto G loosing maybe not 22% but 20%.
I've seen those cocky coupe owners in one thread who still state that coupe has 20HP difference. DYNOs show otherwise - coupe and sedan WHP ARE SIMILAR. That proves again that SEDAN ACTUAL HORSEPOWER IS UNDERRATED and should be at least 270 up to 277 crank.
Examples:
1.RWD G35s auto at 217WHP assuming 20% loss (note: not 17%) equal 271 crank HP.
Formula: 217 / 0.80 = 271.25
2. RWD G35s auto at 217WHP assuming 22% loss equal 278 crank HP.
3. My FWD s/c Accord V6 auto DYNO at 264WHP found to be loosing 22% equal 338 crank HP - 264 / 0.78 = 338.46
So I'd say if Gurgen previous best DYNO was say 241 WHP, again assuming 20% loss for AUTO (not 17%) his crank horsepower would around 301.
241 / 0.80 = 301
Can you guys tell me how much auto coupe (stock) pushing at the wheels?
2004 G35s auto (bone stock)
-----------------------------------
2002 s/c Accord V6 auto
so far best 1/4 mile - 13.9@101.8
coming soon: custom internals, cams, performance auto tranny w/LSD
#25
01-14-2004, 02:09 PM
Re: G35S 6MT baseline DYNO before exhaust..
<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>
it pushing 220-225 (coupe)
<hr></blockquote>
Ok, thanks Gurgen.
Sorry n3m didnt mean to hijack your thread, just dont want to opened up a new one. I also need manual numbers for coupe and sedan (both stock), for now just AUTOs.
Note: This is not intended to diminish coupe owners as they do sometime against sedan. This is typical comparison to prove that sedan has similar horsepower numbers as coupe.
Here it is sedan owners the reality is here.
G35 auto coupe dyno: 222 (considering average based on 220-225)
G35 auto sedan dyno: 217 (considering average based on 216-218)
Difference: is what? 5whp [img]/w3timages/icons/smile.gif[/img].
Comparison:
Coupe formula:
------------------
222whp / 0.79 (21% auto drivetrain loss) = 281 crank hp
Sedan formula:
---------------
217whp /0.79 (21% auto drivetrain loss) = 275 crank hp.
Now keep in mind an additional weight difference by coupe being heavier then sedan.
Source - Infiniti.com
G coupe: 3,422 lbs - auto leather model
G sedan: 3,369 lbs - auto leather model
----------------------------------------
53 lbs auto vs. auto
G coupe: 3,435 lbs - 6MT leather model
G sedan: 3,398 lbs - 6MT leather model
--------------------------------------
37 lbs man vs. man
So as you can see the sedan horsepower is underrated to be 260 as Infiniti claims and looks like 275.
Even if ECU and exaust tuning being different its easily achievable to gain more.
2004 G35s auto (bone stock)
-----------------------------------
2002 s/c Accord V6 auto
so far best 1/4 mile - 13.9@101.8
coming soon: custom internals, cams, performance auto tranny w/LSD
it pushing 220-225 (coupe)
<hr></blockquote>
Ok, thanks Gurgen.
Sorry n3m didnt mean to hijack your thread, just dont want to opened up a new one. I also need manual numbers for coupe and sedan (both stock), for now just AUTOs.
Note: This is not intended to diminish coupe owners as they do sometime against sedan. This is typical comparison to prove that sedan has similar horsepower numbers as coupe.
Here it is sedan owners the reality is here.
G35 auto coupe dyno: 222 (considering average based on 220-225)
G35 auto sedan dyno: 217 (considering average based on 216-218)
Difference: is what? 5whp [img]/w3timages/icons/smile.gif[/img].
Comparison:
Coupe formula:
------------------
222whp / 0.79 (21% auto drivetrain loss) = 281 crank hp
Sedan formula:
---------------
217whp /0.79 (21% auto drivetrain loss) = 275 crank hp.
Now keep in mind an additional weight difference by coupe being heavier then sedan.
Source - Infiniti.com
G coupe: 3,422 lbs - auto leather model
G sedan: 3,369 lbs - auto leather model
----------------------------------------
53 lbs auto vs. auto
G coupe: 3,435 lbs - 6MT leather model
G sedan: 3,398 lbs - 6MT leather model
--------------------------------------
37 lbs man vs. man
So as you can see the sedan horsepower is underrated to be 260 as Infiniti claims and looks like 275.
Even if ECU and exaust tuning being different its easily achievable to gain more.
2004 G35s auto (bone stock)
-----------------------------------
2002 s/c Accord V6 auto
so far best 1/4 mile - 13.9@101.8
coming soon: custom internals, cams, performance auto tranny w/LSD
#26
01-14-2004, 05:39 PM
Re: G35S 6MT baseline DYNO before exhaust..
Also the sedan comes with 17's vs the coupe with 18's. Larger wheels = heavier = more inertial losses = tougher to accelerate/brake so that works in favor of the sedan also.
2004 G35s auto (bone stock)
-----------------------------------
2002 s/c Accord V6 auto
so far best 1/4 mile - 13.9@101.8
coming soon: custom internals, cams, performance auto tranny w/LSD
2004 G35s auto (bone stock)
-----------------------------------
2002 s/c Accord V6 auto
so far best 1/4 mile - 13.9@101.8
coming soon: custom internals, cams, performance auto tranny w/LSD
#28
01-16-2004, 02:05 AM
Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 199
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
#29
01-17-2004, 03:21 AM
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Surf City, CA
Posts: 259
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: G35S 6MT baseline DYNO before exhaust..
Very nice numbers. If I can get a nice price from the place I get the Saleen dynoed, I may do the G stock. I plan to do similar mods.
*'03.5 MT6 Sedan, Premium, CB*
*'00 Saleen S281-SC* http://members.cardomain.com/headpaneer <P ID="edit"><FONT class="small"><EM>Edited by headpaneer on 01/17/04 12:24 AM.</EM></FONT></P>
*'03.5 MT6 Sedan, Premium, CB*
*'00 Saleen S281-SC* http://members.cardomain.com/headpaneer <P ID="edit"><FONT class="small"><EM>Edited by headpaneer on 01/17/04 12:24 AM.</EM></FONT></P>
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
laksjd84
Exterior - Body Parts
1
07-24-2015 05:12 PM
