The main question would be why BOSE would wait until 2007 to actually offer a quality audio system with this type of claims. But you can't please everyone no matter what in the end.

 

arrgh sound system better not suck, cuase if the sound system sucks im taking my money that was going into the engine, and its going into a new sound system

 

I learn not to trust Wes Phillips a long time ago. His idea of good music is lots of bass and treble. I wonder why he is still on stereophile staff writers.

 

Further, why would Infiniti stick such a POS Bose system in the G for the last 5 years - a system that is killed by other systems even in main-stream cars, including the stock offering in the G - and then STILL go w/Bose...? If you all are hoping for something spectacular in an Audio System, like a ML or something equivalent; look elsewhere - for based on the discussions here already by Mr. Bose, this system is all Bose Status Quo: Marketing.

 

Well-well-well look who's back - Welcome.

1st off:
Although it would be intuitive to search AVSForum for RLampke for this post, I'm actually under a different ID - but you get an "A" for effort.

Second - I'm not sure who put you in the position to judge other's statements/comments on AVSforum.com or other recognized audio professional sites, but I can assure you there are some industry-recognized experts on this forum - which have also commented on your thread that I posted. You and your products have a long way to go before you’re even in a position to offer anything substantiated on this topic. Paper cones you say..? We’ll if you would read my threads more carefully; you would have picked up on my statement that I said that paper cones DO have very good properties – if manufactured properly. Very well recognized names still do use paper cones and do so effectively: Velodyne Subs, Todem Acoustics, ect… However, these companies manufacture their paper speakers to much different specifications than you do AND they are manufactured for Home Audio – a much different environment then what speakers are exposed to in Car Audio.

You want to have a discussion about Cellulose [wood pulp derived] speakers you think Bose manufactures so well…? Then discuss this:

1. How does a cellulose speaker, which its inherent properies are absorption, a very bad property to have in a Car audio environment, have over Aluminum and other types of materials that are much more inert and can stand up to this environment w/out affecting audio quality…?

2. If paper is so good, why is it that I cannot find another high-end [or middle tier for that matter] Audio speaker that used these cones, except Junk OEM installations like your offerings…?

Nevertheless, even if this new system has what it takes to be a recognized “High-End” system [and that's a big IF], I sure hope Bose/Infiniti did something about the acoustical properties of the G’s interior, or lack thereof in the current car. And if you really wanted to conduct an impartial test, then why not have this so-called expert, drive the car and test the audio system together, as other professionals have done in the Lexus/ML offerings…? Is this not the real litmus test of a car audio system….?

http://www.avrev.com/equip/lexus/index.html
http://www.avrev.com/equip/lexus470/index.html

…for this [and the current G's system] effort, you get an “F”

 

Rlampke,
Try to stay on topic ...

PAPER CONES
Scroll up in this thread and you'll find yourself critcizing cheap paper cones used in Bose automotive products. As of yet, you have not brought up a single legitiate design issue about using cellulose for automotive cones. You're going to start screaming irrationally about environmental issues. Guess what, water and humidity are not problems to the extent that all competent manufacturers of cones for automotive applications know how to treat them well enough to survive very rigorous water resistance testing. It's not just a good idea, it is required by every OEM.

Okay, you did reverse yourself to say that paper can perform well as a cone material ... even without acknowledging why ... at least you admit that the appearance and perceived lack of high-tech-ness of paper doesn't mean it can't work well. More backpedaling on your part

So, if there are no unmanageable environmental issues and paper has good acoustic performance qualities ... try this next idea on for size. One reason you don't see paper cones in the aftermarket is that the average aftermarket consumer judges speaker quality, in part, by what they can touch, feel, and see ... and by marketing messages. I think it is understandable that laypeople find it more intuitively satisfying to read advertising copy that markets Aluminum and poly as better speaker cone material. Heck, how about Titanium ? I'll bet it's a only a matter of time before some creative marketing hack gets that into the car audio magazines.

Magnets and motors: you've already said once that Nd is not good for sound quality. I've seen plenty of criticism of Bose speakers based on the fact that they have small motors. You can find plenty of such statements in avsforum (your recommended site for technical knowlege). Again, I completely sympathize with the layperson's susceptibility to marketing spin which says big honking ferrite magnet structures are better. Afterall, all those aftermarket auto speaker companies need things that look convincing in their ads and on speaker spec lists. Who cares if it really makes a difference ... so long as the kid down at the store is impressed with the heft of the 'thunder' magnet on the 'Phoeni Gold; woofer. You want to have a meaningful conversation about car audio? Why don't you start by leaving the marketing spin that dominates the car audio industry at the door and talk about the real issues involved with speaker design.

Lastly, who are you to judge which audio reviewer have good ears and which don't. I don't know Jerry over at audio-video-revolution, but how do you figure he knows good sound any better than folks who make their living judging audio performance ... who have given some Bose systems good reviews? Go back to my very first post about the 2007 G35 audio system. I did not state how I thought it sounds. I merely pointed you guys to one review of the system. If you think Stereophile reviewers have tin ears .... I don't know what more to say to you. Well, maybe I do. Go talk to Dave Clark (http://www.dlcdesignaudio.com/). This is an independent audio testing and consulting group that works with all the OEM's on audio system design and performance evaluation. That is a reputable outfit staffed with people who are documented professionals in the area of automotive audio. You have yet to produce a single name of someone who is a credible expert in audio system design for automobiles. I'm sure you actual know someone who is ... so why not state their names and we'll get them in to a meaningful talk about the subject.

While we're at it, who are you and what are your professional affiliations with regard to automobiles and cars? You're not afraid to expose your credibility to some good natured scrutiny, are you?

John Feng

 

John,

I sure hope your “Studio on Wagon-Wheels” is better than your reading comprehension - Who in this discussion mentioned about your utilization of Nd motor structures besides you...? I certainly didn't. If you find where please repost. An Nd structure is just one way of dealing w/packaging constraints – that’s all. Speaking of, WTF would you put 10” woofers [I’m sorry, Nd woofers] into a front door panel…? Are you kidding me…? Wait, I know the answer to this: MARKETING. “...the worlds 1st implementation of a front door triple speaker array utilizing a 10” woofer”. Really, you act like you’re walking on the moon here. You really think because no-one offered this design previously is because no-one else had the intelligence to figure it out…? Guess again – more like no-one needed to because speaker design today is not drive by size alone, like it was 20 years ago; as others have already figured out. ML, Dynaudio, Bang-Olfson, Panasonic/ELS and even the Dolby Pro Logic/Alpine [not %100 sure the vendor is Alpine here] in the Volvo upgraded system for that matter [and others] have all figured out how to property place and size speakers to fit their respected instillation locations – and give up nothing in terms of packaging and audio quality. These systems outright kill anything your offering hands down especially in the current G – IMO and others.

A ‘honking” magnet structure is not an effective way to design a woofer/subwoofer…? A properly sized magnet structure given it's role w/in the system sure is. Besides, I’ve yet to see a POS Nd woofer in any high-end home application - if you know of any please point them out. Did the $80K “reference” system you benchmarked the “Studio on Wheels” system against have Nd woofers…?

I find it ironic that someone from a company like Bose is accusing other manufactures that the choice of speaker materials used is determined solely by marketing..? That’s unbelievable coming from a company who’s core business model is marketing, and I hope shows others reading along who I’m dealing with here. Unfortunately the answer here is most manufacturers long ago figured out the problem w/paper in automotive applications and have successfully executed alternatives – except Bose.

In regards to the articles that I’ve posted, once again if you take the time to read it was an example of how others have tested the Mark Levinson/Lexus system [along w/other systems] while the vehicles were actually being driven – this is an audio system not a home system. "Gee John, your Studio on Wheels sounds great in the garage w/the doors closed..."

Lastly, I’m not the one on trial here and either is anyone else – you and your POS Bose systems are. You chimed in w/your $0.02 here on this post on your own free will.

 

Speaking of, WTF would you put 10” woofers [I’m sorry, Nd woofers] into a front door panel…? Are you kidding me…? Wait, I know the answer to this: MARKETING.
That statement implies you've never worked in the field of consumer audio (car or home). Companies have engineers, and then they have marketing. Marketing folks focus on phrases "1st," and "never before," and "new," because the OEM (Infiniti) finds such things to be valuable in their advertising claims. It's neither inherently good or inherently bad. It's just marketing speak.

Let's get to the real point, that is why put a big woofer in a door.
I'll give you a really easy quiz so you can gain some technical credentials here. What's the advantage of using a bigger woofer. Worth half a point because even you should be able to get it.

Now, here's another easy one. Why would you put a woofer up front rather than just on the rear deck? Worth a full point, but not more. Anyone who has started to look at car audio design from a technically comprehensive standpoint should be able to answer this one in their sleep.


“...the worlds 1st implementation of a front door triple speaker array utilizing a 10” woofer”. Really, you act like you’re walking on the moon here.

You falsely assume I am the source of this statement. Please give Bose or Infiniti marketing a call if this statement offends you.

A ‘honking” magnet structure is not an effective way to design a woofer/subwoofer…? A properly sized magnet structure given it's role w/in the system sure is.
Physically large does not always mean properly sized. Big is an important advertising/marketing point for the car audio aftermarket industry. For speaker designers, there are better indications of appropriate motor design.
Bose doesn't care about making the speaker motor look powerful, so long as it's appropriately designed for the application. Looking pretty is not a primary function of a speaker. I know you disagree vehemently. Sorry, but this is the truth.

Quiz question #3, this is worth 3 points because I doubt you will get it. What is the primary indicator of motor force and how do you know when it's appropriately sized for a particular speaker configuration?

Besides, I’ve yet to see a POS Nd woofer in any high-end home application - if you know of any please point them out. Did the $80K “reference” system you benchmarked the “Studio on Wheels” system against have Nd woofers…?

There you go again, criticizing things based on meaningless criteria.
"POS Nd" is not a given. There are poorly designed Nd and Fe speakers out there. But there is nothing inherent about an Nd speaker that means it will be a POS.

I find it ironic that someone from a company like Bose is accusing other manufactures that the choice of speaker materials used is determined solely by marketing..?

I am a little bit agast ...
Rlampke, you don't REALLY believe everything you read in those car audio ads, do you? Why the claims of new breakthru materials and designs come so fast that you'd think the bulk of the worlds Nobel Laureates are designing car speakers. Hah!
Reality: the things that matter for good transducer performance are, for the most part, not visible. Marketing folks at the car audio companies know that it's hard to sell you on something that doesn't show in a color magazine ad, so they find things that visually speak to performance/power for the uneducated masses. I'm sorry, but I might told you this sooner had I realized how much you had been taken in by the marketing machines in the aftermarket industry!


Unfortunately the answer here is most manufacturers long ago figured out the problem w/paper in automotive applications and have successfully executed alternatives – except Bose.

You're starting to push a hot button there. If you are ready to scoop up and swallow the drivel you've been posting as technical audio fact ... let me know and I'll blow this falsehood up for you in my next post.

John Feng

 

Even though you two are speaking (or at least trying to) way above my head, I'm really enjoying this...

BTW, feng, is the person mentioned in the review actually you? Just curious.

...continue

 

Definitely above my head as well, but am enjoying this nonetheless. One thing I don't understand though is how someone can critize something they haven't even heard yet. Oh well, I know that I am looking forward to having this in my new G that is on order and I couldn't care less what anyone else thinks anyways.

 

You mean you have to hear something before you know what it sounds like?
Brilliant. Rlampke, did you get that?

Sorry the discussion is over your head. What specifically did you want to know more about ... regarding designing speakers or audio systems for cars?

John Feng

(P.S. Yes, that is me in the article. I find it incredible the way people have slammed Thomas without having even met the guy first. He's an incredibly talented guy who does thorough and excellent work. He's ability to hear and remember nuances of audio performance are absolutely 1st rate. )

 

Lol, no need to apologize for the discussion being over my head......although it would be nice to be more well versed in car audio. As long as I know what sounds good to my ears is all I need to know I guess.

John, how would you compare the Studio On Wheels compared to the audio system in the M? Are they somewhat similiar?

 

Sorry. Corporate etiquette requires me to tell you they sound different, and you should have a listen to see which one suits your preferences best. Feature-wise, you already know they are apples and oranges (DVD-audio for the M and stereo-only for the G).

John Feng

 

No worries John, just figured I would ask anyways.

 

Marketing allows us to say, "its the best system we've done so far..."
The point being not to criticize older systems that were designed a long time ago, and to acknowledge that systems are getting better over time.

JOhn Feng