BEst Sway bars
#16
11-23-2004 | 11:14 AM
Re: BEst Sway bars
Now that the prices are very similar (stillen used to be a lot more expensive when I was looking at them), I'd have to say that it's a toss up between the Hotchkis and the Stillen. You can get the collars for the Hotchkis from McMasters for around $35 shipped.
The only benefit to the hotchkis with the added collars over the stillen would be that they are considerably lighter (hollow v. solid steel).
I've never had a problem with the hotchkis shifting on me even after a track event. (I can tell because you can see the build up of grease just outside the bushings.) Nevertheless, I purchased the collars anyway and I'll put them in on my next oil change.
BTW, is the $275 a shipped price?
*EDIT* I didn't know that there were install issues with the Stillen. There were absolutely none on the Hotchkis.<P ID="edit"><FONT class="small"><EM>Edited by al503 on 11/23/04 08:18 AM.</EM></FONT></P>
The only benefit to the hotchkis with the added collars over the stillen would be that they are considerably lighter (hollow v. solid steel).
I've never had a problem with the hotchkis shifting on me even after a track event. (I can tell because you can see the build up of grease just outside the bushings.) Nevertheless, I purchased the collars anyway and I'll put them in on my next oil change.
BTW, is the $275 a shipped price?
*EDIT* I didn't know that there were install issues with the Stillen. There were absolutely none on the Hotchkis.<P ID="edit"><FONT class="small"><EM>Edited by al503 on 11/23/04 08:18 AM.</EM></FONT></P>
#17
11-23-2004 | 11:28 AM
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From: Sugar Land,Texas
#19
11-23-2004 | 11:39 AM
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From: socalifornia
#20
11-23-2004 | 11:46 AM
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From: socalifornia
Re: BEst Sway bars
no thanks, I got the Stillens... (I'll bet you got the Hotchkis???)
actually, my friend, I did research and found that many people hear a squeaking sound from the Hotchkis, and this is due to the sway bar shifting and sliding cause they dont have the collars on them. grease it up and there is MORE shifting, you just can't hear it anymore. if you CAN put the collars on, more power to you, then i say its even...
now to the settings. you DONT want your sway bars to be too stiff, cause then you will be sliding everywhere. you actually want SOME body-roll to cause the weight distribution to put force on the opposite side of the car when youre turning, for more traction/ friction with the ground... too stiff-->no sway-->all the weight will be horizontal and your car will be slipping and sliding everywhere...
and dont put words in my mouth, i didnt say if its the most expensive, it must be good... i meant that if its the cheapest, there must be a reason for it...
my main concern when researching for an anti-sway bar was price and collars. i dont track, so stiffness wasnt THAT much of a concern... i say, if Hotchkis has the collars on them, then theyre not bad at all, but they dont and thats why theyre the WORST!
actually, my friend, I did research and found that many people hear a squeaking sound from the Hotchkis, and this is due to the sway bar shifting and sliding cause they dont have the collars on them. grease it up and there is MORE shifting, you just can't hear it anymore. if you CAN put the collars on, more power to you, then i say its even...
now to the settings. you DONT want your sway bars to be too stiff, cause then you will be sliding everywhere. you actually want SOME body-roll to cause the weight distribution to put force on the opposite side of the car when youre turning, for more traction/ friction with the ground... too stiff-->no sway-->all the weight will be horizontal and your car will be slipping and sliding everywhere...
and dont put words in my mouth, i didnt say if its the most expensive, it must be good... i meant that if its the cheapest, there must be a reason for it...
my main concern when researching for an anti-sway bar was price and collars. i dont track, so stiffness wasnt THAT much of a concern... i say, if Hotchkis has the collars on them, then theyre not bad at all, but they dont and thats why theyre the WORST!
#21
11-23-2004 | 11:52 AM
Re: BEst Sway bars
I can hear you loud and clear, GRider. :-)
It won't be that hard to get them in the right location. I'll give it about 1/8" - 1/4" leeway and call it good. Hopefully the collars on the Stillen were welded into the bars in the right place. I'm sure they were but if they're not, good luck getting customer service. You'll also get some movement from the stillens due to how soft the OEM bushings are.
Again, I don't think you can really go wrong with either set-up. We could go on all day about the pro's and con's to each. Do some research and pick the one that appeals to you the most for whatever reason.
It won't be that hard to get them in the right location. I'll give it about 1/8" - 1/4" leeway and call it good. Hopefully the collars on the Stillen were welded into the bars in the right place. I'm sure they were but if they're not, good luck getting customer service. You'll also get some movement from the stillens due to how soft the OEM bushings are.
Again, I don't think you can really go wrong with either set-up. We could go on all day about the pro's and con's to each. Do some research and pick the one that appeals to you the most for whatever reason.
#24
11-23-2004 | 03:11 PM
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Re: BEst Sway bars
I picked up my Stillen set locally at UltimateZ.com for $269.
Installed just the rear at the softest setting and the car
is very neutral on my setup. There is some roll, but
it's controlled and you don't want to go too stiff on the sway
as the tires will loose grip (as mentioned earlier) especially
on the factory tires.
Stillen should sell just the rears for half price for those
using lowering springs and factory tires.
btw, used some lithieum grease on the bushings and brackets.
There is no noise... as there shouldn't. The
collars are welded. I like the gold finish they used.
2004 G35C 6MT Brilliant Silver
S-Tech front / Pro-kit rear / Stillen Camber Rods / Stillen Rear Swaybar
Installed just the rear at the softest setting and the car
is very neutral on my setup. There is some roll, but
it's controlled and you don't want to go too stiff on the sway
as the tires will loose grip (as mentioned earlier) especially
on the factory tires.
Stillen should sell just the rears for half price for those
using lowering springs and factory tires.
btw, used some lithieum grease on the bushings and brackets.
There is no noise... as there shouldn't. The
collars are welded. I like the gold finish they used.
2004 G35C 6MT Brilliant Silver
S-Tech front / Pro-kit rear / Stillen Camber Rods / Stillen Rear Swaybar
#26
11-23-2004 | 11:08 PM
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Re: BEst Sway bars
kenchan... i just noticed that you said "especially factory tires" when talking about losing traction.... the factory tires are the best/most expensive tires that will ever be on my car probably.... pilot sports are incredible tires
2004 Black on Black g coupe 6spd.... aluminum pedals, clear corners, z tube, and pop charger with 20% madico tint
Houston Texas
2004 Black on Black g coupe 6spd.... aluminum pedals, clear corners, z tube, and pop charger with 20% madico tint
Houston Texas
#27
11-24-2004 | 12:53 AM
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From: socalifornia
#28
11-24-2004 | 12:59 AM
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Re: BEst Sway bars
If you're on factory springs you can start med/med
if you want to... you can also remove the rear tire as
Stillen's instructions tell you to do even though it is
completely unnecessary for the install. I say go
with your calculations and use the manuf. suggestions
only as suggestions.
Pilot's work well for its size, but you need to keep some
body roll in order not to over power them (which is very
easy to do with swaybars on improper settings).
2004 G35C 6MT Brilliant Silver
S-Tech front / Pro-kit rear / Stillen Camber Rods / Stillen Rear Swaybar
if you want to... you can also remove the rear tire as
Stillen's instructions tell you to do even though it is
completely unnecessary for the install. I say go
with your calculations and use the manuf. suggestions
only as suggestions.
Pilot's work well for its size, but you need to keep some
body roll in order not to over power them (which is very
easy to do with swaybars on improper settings).
2004 G35C 6MT Brilliant Silver
S-Tech front / Pro-kit rear / Stillen Camber Rods / Stillen Rear Swaybar
#30
02-15-2005 | 06:49 AM
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Posts: 2,514
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From: Marietta, Georgia
Most people don't understand that the stiffer the bar the more traction you lose at that end.......as bars take away traction by increasing tire loading. The rear has more traction than the front [not counting acceleration vector] because it has less weight, softer springs and bar.
Try the softest front setting and the medium rear setting to gain the most.
The problem is the oem front bar is already overly stiff to induce some understeer! Making it stiffer will just overload the front tires more reducing turnin response.
If you have to have a stiffer front bar upgrade the front tires to a size or load index that is 10-15% [higher - stronger] to match the 10-15% stiffer front bar.
A tires slip angle vs lateral load [+ static load] curve showa what happens as you increase the load.......tire slips more at the same angle as more weight is applied.
Besides selling you 2 bars instead of 1, they are scared of you setting up severe oversteer so they give you a new front bar that negates much of the action of the new rear bar at least as to roll couple ratio shift.
Economics-wise try to frind an adjustable rear bar and leave the front alone......now if you can find a set with a softer [say 10%] than oem front setting that would be good as you don't then need as much rear bar stiffness and the loss of as much rear traction.
The major problem is people don't think about rain or ice/snow when tire traction can be down by 70%........the factory does and always fits a less than optimum dry ratio rear bar to protect drivers.........same with the new SUMMER [warm] only tires......they are off the hook if you drive on them below 50F.
To my knowledge the new BMW 745/645 are the only cars that have active rear sway bars that progressively uncouple as rain is sensed [windshield wiper speed]. Thus to an extent they can optimize for dry and provide extra safety in wet conditions. The bar also senses rear seat/trunk and gasoline weight via measuring rear ride height. To select a base stiffness.
The 100 pound per inch [body roll] active rear bar drops in 5 steps [as rain and speed increases] vs the old fixed rear bar of ~~50 pounds per inch after all the bushing slack is used up.
Hard to tune a fixed bar for changes in rear weight as fuel is consummed [Nascar and racers have in cockpit controls to adjust] as 120 pound fuel weight change is meaningful......10-15%/2 ..... load change on rear tires.
Why one doesn't tune to close to ragged edge of neutrality.
Try the softest front setting and the medium rear setting to gain the most.
The problem is the oem front bar is already overly stiff to induce some understeer! Making it stiffer will just overload the front tires more reducing turnin response.
If you have to have a stiffer front bar upgrade the front tires to a size or load index that is 10-15% [higher - stronger] to match the 10-15% stiffer front bar.
A tires slip angle vs lateral load [+ static load] curve showa what happens as you increase the load.......tire slips more at the same angle as more weight is applied.
Besides selling you 2 bars instead of 1, they are scared of you setting up severe oversteer so they give you a new front bar that negates much of the action of the new rear bar at least as to roll couple ratio shift.
Economics-wise try to frind an adjustable rear bar and leave the front alone......now if you can find a set with a softer [say 10%] than oem front setting that would be good as you don't then need as much rear bar stiffness and the loss of as much rear traction.
The major problem is people don't think about rain or ice/snow when tire traction can be down by 70%........the factory does and always fits a less than optimum dry ratio rear bar to protect drivers.........same with the new SUMMER [warm] only tires......they are off the hook if you drive on them below 50F.
To my knowledge the new BMW 745/645 are the only cars that have active rear sway bars that progressively uncouple as rain is sensed [windshield wiper speed]. Thus to an extent they can optimize for dry and provide extra safety in wet conditions. The bar also senses rear seat/trunk and gasoline weight via measuring rear ride height. To select a base stiffness.
The 100 pound per inch [body roll] active rear bar drops in 5 steps [as rain and speed increases] vs the old fixed rear bar of ~~50 pounds per inch after all the bushing slack is used up.
Hard to tune a fixed bar for changes in rear weight as fuel is consummed [Nascar and racers have in cockpit controls to adjust] as 120 pound fuel weight change is meaningful......10-15%/2 ..... load change on rear tires.
Why one doesn't tune to close to ragged edge of neutrality.