Two kinks with this:

1) speakers sound TOTALLY different when they are pointing at you then when they are ar a 60 or 90 degree angle. Speakers designed to sound good in a car don't sound as good pointing at you. SPeakers designed to sell themselves (because god knows the kid at Circuit can't sell snot) sound better in the board than in a car.

Unfortunately, this is not some cranky conspiracy theory. I used to work for a major 12V manufacturer in product development, and I worked on speakers for a while. The mid-level component manufacturers (by this I mean Kicker, Boston, Polk, Infinity, the head unit brands except Alpine X type and above and Eclipse top end stuff) all have to sell their $200-300 product in chain stores. If they made it for cars, the perception is it won't sell out of the boards.

So any speaker at ear level and pointing at you in a board is pretty much guaranteed to sound totally different than in a car. I don' write the news, I just report the news.

2) IF (and I DO mean IF) you are going to stipulate that different amps o the same power audibly affect sound quality (and I believe that they do, but anyway) and you're in a display board with 22 gauge wire and switcher relays and the problems mentioned above (along with other ways that boards try to cheat) and you still want to pick a particular amp as being the ne plus ultra of sound quality, it's just not a JL.

JL makes good amps. I recommend them to people and I don't even sell them.

But if you're going to pick a "best" sounding amp, I'm not at all sure that this one is it.

Brax, Helix, Genesis, DLS A series, Tru Tech, Sinfoni, Audison... he1l, even a JL dealer I know says that the Boston amps sound better than the JL amps.

They don't sound bad - that's not what I'm saying. But I wouldn't worry too much about the amp in the board.

Try to listen in a car. A good shop will usually have gear in a car.

 

You're correct, they will sound different in a store than in your car. They'll also most likely sound different from one car to another. Listening in a shop just gives you a chance to compare different brands/models to each other. If you don't like the sound of a speaker in the shop then you're not gonna like it in your car either. Notice in my post that I said "audio shop". I wasn't talking about Best Buy, Circuit City, Tweeter, etc. I'm talking about a specialty shop that knows what they're doing.

Nowhere in my post did I say that JL Audio amps are the best. I said to listen with a JL because he said that's what he was going to buy.

 

*Head is spinning* Can't choose components..too many options!

 

Unfortunately you'll never get a definate answer on this AV forum or ANY forum when you ask people to help you choose. The difference in listening preferences, what sort of music you listen to, what is acceptable and what isn't, and that some people on here are deaf and some aren't.

In the end about all we can do is tell you popular names for whatever price range you're looking at. Beyond that, you'll have to choose from the countless brand names + model combos.

 

Manufacturers prohibit online sales due to high theft,counterfeiting,etc. Also keep in mind when running a website or Fleabay it costs pennies. Actual storefront dealers need to pay bills...employees,utilities,insurance,lease,etc. IF they sell for 1-2% markup they wouldnt last very long. They also get complete tech/product support from the manufacturers. Your not just "throwing money away" or "into someones pocket", your getting peace of mind with a warranty.

Online sites that claim they give a warranty arent always all that trustworthy either. Especially when it goes directly against the manufacturers statement of "No Online Sales". It salso a Whole lot easier to shut down a site or not respond to emails then it is to shut down a store. The chances are alot greater that a person will be there if and when you have a problem with your product, rather than someone on the other end of a computer.

 

For the money look into Rainbow Dreamline or Soundline. Both are Excellent choices and are remarkable speakers for the money. The SLCs were compared to the Focal Utopias last year in SQ judging.

 

I think the misconception with audio equipment is that there is a "best." There really isn't a best in any category. An SQ guy will have his own definition of the best, as will an SPL guy. Each person has different tastes as well.

To be honest, when you get into the really high end stuff, like Brax, Tru Tech, Audison, Sinfoni, etc, it becomes even more difficult for a typical consumer to really notice the differences between equipment. Even audiophiles at times resort to bench testing to really conclude whether or not one amp is better than the other....

Anyway...i'm just rambling now.

 

Companies that refuse to sell online generally do so for the point you indrectly made, their markups are so high that entering the Internet market would murder them. In response, these high-markup companies must distinguish themselves as "high end" and "too good to sell on the internet" so they can justify their brick & mortar stores with high prices. Perfect example: Tweeter. And there is no judgement here, every company has to do what they have to do to maximize profit... but that doesn't mean I have to 1.) like it or 2.) agree with it


Some people don't need either. Some people already have peace of mind because they know what they are doing. Some people don't need warranties because they view them as legalized extortion.

When it comes down to it, I'm about buyers choice, and free market, not stupid regulations from a mfgr. who wants to keep their markups high and use scare tactics (OMG THIS COULD BE STOLEN and OMG IT COULD BREAK and OMG IF YOU MESS UP WE CAN'T HELP YOU) to justify.

Neither are brick & mortar stores that give warranties, or even mfgr. that give warranties. Every tried to have something replaced/fixed under warranty at CompUSA (if they are near you?) or Best Buy, or he1l, even a car dealer.... sometimes it's easy cheesy, other times it's awful because they don't want bad numbers, think you are ugly, are having a bad day, whatever other reasons.

Again, some people don't need this. In fact, if I had a problem with my car audio product, the FIRST place I would come (after reading the manuals) would be to this message board, or several other car audio only message boards.

You can buy a Sony desktop PC from Best Buy and pay $2500, or you can build your own for "multimedia PC" for $1000. Option 1 gives you a warranty, "peace of mind", someone to talk to if you are lonely or having PC problems, the chances that Best Buy will shut down their store is less than if some internet shop shut down it's store, etc, etc, all the things you said. But I build my computers, because I know what I'm doing and I don't need the extra $1500 for the warranty, hand holding and "peace of mind".

Paying $365 for a JL 500/5 with a 1 year no questions asked warranty (honored by Ebay) VS. $899 + installation fees + tax from an authorized brick & mortar store with a 1 year limited warranty..... I'll take option #1 please.

 

Using CompUSA or Best Buy as examples of brick and mortar stores shows two things.

1) You're still just shopping on price if you go to those places.

2) Shopping on price buys you no service, no expertise, and no experience.

Consumer Reports just did a huge survey of appliance customers. Unsurprisingly, the best service and follow-through came from stores without the lowest prices.

When I think about shopping on price, I'm reminded of the old adage about con men - "A mark can't be conned unless he's looking for the best of it" -that is, a deal that's too good to be true.

If all you care about is money, you'll end up buying from someone who only cares about money, and that's a hell of a qualification. Wouldn't you rather buy from someone who cares about what they do?

 

It depends on what I'm buying. If I am purchasing something I need service with, I go some place that provides service. For example, when I bought my laptop, I purchased it from an IT systems integration company I used to work for, because they have an established relationship with Toshiba and I had an established relationship with them. I ended up paying a LOT more for the laptop because I did not obtain it through a mass-purchasing retail avenue such as Best Buy or CompUSA.

When I built my desktop, I bought pieces and parts from the cheapest places I could find. Don't need service, don't need warrnties. Between myself and my buddies, we are better support for each other than any IT company could ever provide.

If it's something expensive enough that I want to protect it beyond the mfgr. warranty, I'll get a warranty on it, if not, I won't. Hertz Rental Cars purchases cars from Nissan with no warranty on them, as they service and warranty the cars themselves. When they turn around and sell a car through Hertz Car Sales, they sell a 12,000 mile or 12 mo. warranty with it. My parents just purchased a 2005 Altima for $15k from Hertz Car Sales. They realized what they were purchasing, and were ok with it.

It's all about choice. If you want a warranty, if you don't. If you want to buy from a place with the lowest price in town because you don't need service, or purchase from some place that costs more, but you get excellent customer service.

JL and other Car Audio mfgrs. are saying that they can provide a better product and experience to their customers by limiting their sales to brick & mortar because, if we use your logic and we can presume their logic, it helps keep their resellers limited to those who care about what they DO vs only money.

But in the end, they are simply limiting consumer choice. The two Tweeter stores where I live are more expensive, more elitest, and stupider (as in, have no idea what they are doing unless it's a cookie-cutter same-old-same-old install) Best Buys, but if I want JL from an authorized dealer, guess where I get to go?

If I could buy online from someone who DOES care about what they do and still get love and attention from JL, wouldn't that be great?

Speaking of people who care about what they do, El_duderino you've got e-mail.

 

Brick&mortar stores all have extensive training in what they sell. In which case to some means nothing, to others it means alot. A "real" shop should know what the customer needs/wants and have the ability to answer all of their questions and concerns. Are all of like this? Unfortunately not. Theres still a ton out there that will sell whichever product helps them meet their quarterly quotas or have large P/Ms. Although believe it or not, there are still alot of business owners that actually care about their customers. I for one happen to be one of them.

Your also limiting this to just warranty issues. Keep in mind counterfeiting products is quickly becoming more&more popular. Products built with less quality components dont get your monies worth, regardless of the amount you spent.

Heres a couple links directly targeting specific online stores for selling their products from Zapco and MTX:

http://www.zapco.com/

http://www.mtxaudio.com/caraudio/notAuthorized.cfm

MTX giving a bit more info than Zapco. Keep in mind Manufactuers NEED dealers, not the other way around. If dealers are getting undercut by the internet theres a good chance they wont support the manufactuer, which in turn puts the manufacturer out on their a$$. Internet sites can be "fly-by-night" so theres no telling if theyll still be around tomorrow.

 

I 100% agree. I could tell you were a shop owner, and I honestly thank you for doing what you do, and doing it the right way.

This is always the case. You can ALWAYS go and get cheap knockoffs or even "authentic" stuff that's not. It's Called "Buyer Beware" as Zapco's site says. But it's Buyer Beware, not Mfgr. beware. I don't like companies thinking for me, I don't like them saying I can't buy from an internet store because of some bad apples. Just like you say there are still good/honest shop owners, there are still good/honest internet store owners too.

The Internet is here to stay. The answer to the problem of retail stores being unable to compete in this space is not to try and stop the internet from existing (which is what car mfgr. are trying to do as far as car audio products are concerned). It is to offer services that the internet cannot, just like you and El_duderino have stated: customer service, quality workmanship in installations, etc. He11, I was even considering taking the JL sub that I bought from ebay over to Tweeter and having them install it for me. Services are a better source of income then flipping a sub or an HU anyways. Unfortunately, they have pretty much lost all of my serious business.

But some people don't need/want customer service or quality workmanship with installations. But like always, with EVERYTHING you buy, Buyer Beware.

All I want is choice of where to buy and for mfgrs. to stop thinking for me. Not all of us have Pearl05G or El_duderino type shops around... unfortunately

 

I can definately appreciate your standpoint as far as money is concerned. We have all been there at one point or another. Hell I still am when it comes to products that arent car audio related. I of course search for the best prices availabe, it is in fact just human nature. Far be it for me to tell anyone that they are "wrong".

IF the online shops and manufacturers could come to an agreement that kept prices at a fair market value for both the shop owners and estores,then I would be all for it. Crutchfield for example, although people feel alot of times overpriced is an excellent example. They are supported by the manufacturer and sell at a point that I can still deal with. I typically dont sell products for full markup, as I know people work hard for their money. Ive actually been known to sell below MAP, which in turn could violate my TOA with some manufaturers, but with some markups being as high as they are, I have a hard time sleeping at night. I am a business and do need to make money to put food on my table, but I limit myself to what I markup. I deal with alot of "higher end" brands (Arc,Rainbow,Alumapro,Diamond,Eclipse,etc) and they all have decent P/Ms, but like I said I do the sale to what I feel is fair on both ends. In which case Ive never had a complaint about my prices or service. I run my business soley with my wife, and a few part time installers, so the I rely on the customers to keep me afloat. Although I do get the occasional " I saw it online cheaper", in which case I politely suggest they buy it there. When an online store/Ebay has a product at or below my dealer cost, my hands are tied and theres nothing I can do aside from coming from my own pocket to provude the product, in which case I would not/ could not do.



BTW..thank you for the kind words.

 

Quick question for you guys who own shops, well, actually 2 questions:

1. Would you ever buy a namebrand laptop or computer from a reputable Ebay source?

2. Since you guys know so many people in the biz, can you recommend an install shop in the DFW area for some work I need done next week?


Thanks for your insight, it is nice to hear it from the pros.

 

I would say a reputable online store would be a safe bet. Computers and other electronics as such have Alot less exclustivety and restrictions as opposed to car audio. Just do some research and I think you would be fine.

Unfortunately I dont know anyone down there.