You are coming on here telling people to set up with Soft in front and Medium or Hard in rear and that is OK. What you mean "confuse the situation?" The only thing confused here is you. There is more to consider than just Soft Medium or hard. A person that sets up a car with Soft up front and Medium in Rear with stock Sway bars will get a different response than a person with the same setup but with stiffer sway bars. Bottom line is....no one should have their car set up with the softer setting up front track or street. You think those guys on the street with 1000 hp Supras would be happy to see their car dip when they hit the brakes and get light in the rear after hitting 180+ ? You said Google?? I think that is where you got your driving experience . I am done with this...so you can argue with yourself This post is becoming Non-productive

 

Please point to a single post where I told anyone to set their car up that way. I only responded to the other poster saying a stiffer rear will increase the oversteer.

In fact, you advised someone that setting the front to medium and the rear to soft would reduce understeer (https://g35driver.com/forums/showpos...3&postcount=2), and the fact is you are wrong. That setup is similar to the stock balance, and promotes further understeer.

Sorry, but I think it's you who is confused. How exactly does a person set up stock sway bars to anything other than the factory setting? Again, for the reading imparied: this thread is about HOW TO SET UP AFTERMARKET SWAY BARS.

 

Sorry, guy, I think it's you who doesn't get it. The wall isn't the point - You still have understeer/oversteer, weight transfer and scrubbing at "low" speed. If you autocrossed you would know that.

Here are a few pics of me and a friend from 2 years ago:
<img src="http://www.streetneeds.com/uploads/twinturbonet/AX2_big.jpg">
<img src="http://www.streetneeds.com/uploads/twinturbonet/AX3_big.jpg">
<img src="http://www.streetneeds.com/uploads/twinturbonet/AX4.jpg">

See any understeer/oversteer or weight transfer there? I thought so...

Come on, dude. You said "average top speed is 20-40" which is just plain silly. And so what if not everyone goes 60? The good drivers do, and that's all I care about. Regardless, as I said above, the principles of understeer/oversteer, tire scrubbing, etc. still apply at 40! Also, Formula 1 is a meaningless comparison because they are all pros in very similar cars, and thus average the same top speeds. In amateur racing, speeds vary considerably as well, and I would bet a large sum of money that you rarely are hitting 160-190 in your "racing" adventures either.

You wouldn't have to apologize if you actually did a little research before posting. Here's a little something to get you started:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autocross

"Autocross tends to place more emphasis on car handling and driver skill than on sheer horsepower...Speeds are slower in absolute terms when compared to other forms of motorsports, usually not exceeding highway speeds, but the activity level (measured in discrete turns per minute) can be higher than even Formula One due to the large number of elements packed into each course...In addition to being a national-level motorsport in its own right, autocrossing is a good way to learn skills that transfer to road racing, as drivers learn vehicle control and club ethics...autocross speeds can reach over 60 mph (100 km/h)"

 

I think Playstation really is where your driving experience comes from. Anyone who is "hitting 180+" in a "1000 hp Supra" on the street deserves to get hit in the rear regardless of how they set it up!

 

I love this thread. Somehow I thought that this site started pealing off.


Ok. Stillen vs. OEM ’03 sedan a.sway bars: +7%, +51% and +70% (soft, med, stiff)
OP, cooldog45 in post 1 stated:
Basically, he transferred 44% roll stiffness to the rear.

XKR, in post 2 you stated: Please explain. I like to learn.

Then you went on explaining how oversteer is safer. For you!

I then asked you in post 13: Now, I understand where you are coming from, but I don’t care - this thread was about OP setup.

 

Here’s a simplified guide to sway bar tuning (to address the original topic),
<!--[if !supportLineBreakNewLine]-->
<!--[endif]--> To increase understeer or reduce oversteer:<o></o>
Add front bar and/or reduce rear bar

To increase oversteer or reduce understeer:<o></o>
Reduce front bar and/or increase rear bar

Also note that increasing the front bar stiffness has a positive affect on initial turn-in response (e.g. react on a dime). Go too far with that, you will quickly transition to the understeering state shortly after the turn-in. Likewise, going too far with the rear bar setting could result in snap oversteer. It is up to you to find your ideal setup. But be wary that what feels great at 50% or even 80% effort could be more than a handful at above 90%. Tread cautiously if you like to experiment at the local canyon w. VDC off.


Now to touch up on the others …
<o></o>
The general consensus in the industry is that reasonable understeer is preferred and deemed safer than reasonable oversteer for the average John and Jane Doe drivers. The assumption is that the mass majority of the driving population are not well versed in the concept of proper countersteer evasive manuever (which includes throttle modulation) but are instinctively programmed to lift (off the gas) during a surprise. The latter (lifting) is helpful during understeer but not for oversteer.
<o></o>
Having said that … the above scenario is certainly not all encompassing. It’s no secret well trained drivers generally prefer oversteer over understeer, because they are allowed the possibility to “drift” out of the situation; often effortlessly. However there is a point in which too much is simply too much even for the veterans before physics simply takes over. In such case, excessive oversteer fairs no better than excessive understeer. It’s game over for both. I am of the latter group, so I like my car tending towards oversteer, while the girlfriend gets the car that likes to push (aka understeer).
<o>

</o>regarding car control …
<o></o>
If the car is understeering the last thing you’d really want to do is to touch the brakes. This is indeed what they would teach you at the driving schools. It isn’t a hard concept to understand either. Understeering is none other than the front tires having met and exceeded their road holding capacity and therefore unable to continue track the car towards the intended path. During this delicate state, nailing the brakes will almost always end up locking the front tires, further reducing their road holding capacity - into the wall you go. The corrective action should be lift (off the throttle), which not only trims the speed until it is below threshold (to regain traction), the onset deceleration also has an effect of transferring weight forward (onto the front tires) and thereby temporarily increasing the threshold.
<o></o>
I will note there are other techniques that one could employ to force the car out of an advanced understeer (e.g. hand brake, clutching, gas/brake pumps + steering), but they are highly evolved maneuvers that most drivers (and even advanced drivers) wouldn’t think of trying. The previously prescribed lift-off strategy is among the most fundamental and easiest car control technique to counter 99% of the understeer conditions.<o></o>

 

Thanks Clint. I think we're in agreement on this one!

 

Interesting, but can this theory be applied to almost any sports car? From all the resources I have read, including ones from a couple suspension companies (like Tokico), it indicated that if you want oversteer, make the rear stiffer and then the front softer. Which makes sense, since you don't want any "bend" in the side-to-side suspension which will give the tires that extra grip. I am strictly talking about the sway bars here, not springs/shocks.

I agree that in the G/Z, a stiffer front and softer rear spring is the way to go. A race team (can't remember their name, but its on my350z) published this a couple years ago and came out with their own spring line with a stiffer front than rear.

 

If this forum only had more logical debates like this then i think everyone on here would learn a lot more. Most of the threads turn into pissing matches, but i have learned some great stuff in this thread.

-Sean

 

Dan,
Some of XKR's statements need further qualifying (no pun intended), while others are regrettably off base. I shall return and elaborate. I am currently being summoned to the cockpit test lab. Will be back in a couple hours or so. Yes, I'm at work too!

 

I agree.

The fact of the matter is no one loves to be told their wrong (myself included). Belief in oneself is a powerful thing and often a good thing. However what makes or breaks is one's ability to acknowledge they are either mislead, confused, or simply wrong. Debate is a way to the realization.

It was only the other day that I realized I had dropped the ***** on the subject of "final drive ratio affecting speedo" for our car. Bummer! Made a mistake, admitted it, and moved on. ... such is life.

 

Great info. this is how I've understood it also.

 

In trying to hold up my end of the bargain, I was doctoring up an elaborate (promised earlier), but I think we are already in harmony here. I will leave it as is for now. The last thing I want to do is come off as trying to crucify any individual. So until someone expresses the need to be expanded on a particular, I will let my fingers go to sleep.

Regards,

 

Git back to the lab, you slacker! I wonder what my eibachs are set on?