Guys with BC coilovers - need help!!
#46
07-10-2008, 06:02 PM
so the sole purpose of the gradually bigger diameter coil is to seat properly and rid the bucket?... the gradually bigger coil does not affect the spring rate?... okay… I’m not a physics major – but it seems a broader coil would compress at a different rate than a tighter coil – unless the thickness tapers at the narrow side (which I highly doubt it does, and doesn’t look like it does – and doesn’t seem like good idea).
So linear spring rate it is – I guess...
So linear spring rate it is – I guess...
#47
07-10-2008, 06:05 PM
Originally Posted by OCG35
so the sole purpose of the gradually bigger diameter coil is to seat properly and rid the bucket?... the gradually bigger coil does not affect the spring rate?... okay… I’m not a physics major – but it seems a broader coil would compress at a different rate than a tighter coil – unless the thickness tapers at the narrow side (which I highly doubt it does, and doesn’t look like it does – and doesn’t seem like good idea).
So linear spring rate it is – I guess...
So linear spring rate it is – I guess...
#48
07-10-2008, 06:17 PM
Originally Posted by Klubbheads
It clearly states the there is an average rate for the whole spring compression process therefore making it a linear rate. If it was talking about the linear spring that u are referring to, there wouldn't be an average diameter because there would only be one throughout the length of the spring. Average diameter means that the top portion of the spring has different diameter compared to the bottom portion.
Every kg/lb force on a linear spring will have the same effect throughout the springs compression no matter how much it compresses.
Every kg/lb force on a linear spring will have the same effect throughout the springs compression no matter how much it compresses.
Originally Posted by redlude97
how are they not progressive when the springs are wound at what appears to be the same spacing while the coil diameter gets smaller
#49
07-10-2008, 06:50 PM
Conical Compression Springs
Conical Springs are Cone shaped compression springs designed to provide a near constant spring rate and a solid height lower than a normal spring. Each spring features a variable pitch to achieve the constant spring rate and coils which nest during deflection to provide a solid height approximately equal to two wire diameters.
Some uses for conical compression springs are as follows:
Small Solid Height: A Conical spring can be designed so that each active coil fits within the next coil, so the solid height can be equal to one or two thicknesses of wire. This is useful where the solid height is limited.
Variable Rate: These springs offer a constant, or uniform pitch, and have an increasing force rate instead of a constant force rate (regular compression springs). The larger coils gradually begin to bottom as a force is applied. A variable pitch can be designed to give a uniform rate if necessary.
Stability: Conical compression offers more lateral stability and less tendency to buckle than regular compression springs. Vibration: Resonance and vibration is reduced because Conical Compression springs have a uniform pitch and an increasing natural period of vibration (instead of a constant) as each coil bottoms.
Conical Springs are Cone shaped compression springs designed to provide a near constant spring rate and a solid height lower than a normal spring. Each spring features a variable pitch to achieve the constant spring rate and coils which nest during deflection to provide a solid height approximately equal to two wire diameters.
Some uses for conical compression springs are as follows:
Small Solid Height: A Conical spring can be designed so that each active coil fits within the next coil, so the solid height can be equal to one or two thicknesses of wire. This is useful where the solid height is limited.
Variable Rate: These springs offer a constant, or uniform pitch, and have an increasing force rate instead of a constant force rate (regular compression springs). The larger coils gradually begin to bottom as a force is applied. A variable pitch can be designed to give a uniform rate if necessary.
Stability: Conical compression offers more lateral stability and less tendency to buckle than regular compression springs. Vibration: Resonance and vibration is reduced because Conical Compression springs have a uniform pitch and an increasing natural period of vibration (instead of a constant) as each coil bottoms.
#50
07-10-2008, 07:08 PM
Originally Posted by Klubbheads
As u can see even Conical type springs can be progressive and linear depending on the design. And the key feature to distinguish from to the other is the spaces between the coils. If u look at any progressive spring u will see that all of them have different spacing as far as the coils go and linear springs always have even spacing between each other. Both types of springs can be straight through design and Conical. the deciding factor is the spacing between the coils.
Straight spring:
Same pitch-linear design
Varying pitch-progressive design
Conical spring:
Same pitch-progressive design
Varying pitch-linear design
Do you see the difference yet?
#51
07-10-2008, 07:13 PM
Originally Posted by redlude97
You just proved my point, if the pitch on a conical spring is even, then it is a variable(progressive) rate. Just as I stated. The pitch/spacing would have to be different for the springrate to be constant. Let me break it down so even you can understand.
Straight spring:
Same pitch-linear design
Varying pitch-progressive design
Conical spring:
Same pitch-progressive design
Varying pitch-linear design
Do you see the difference yet?
Straight spring:
Same pitch-linear design
Varying pitch-progressive design
Conical spring:
Same pitch-progressive design
Varying pitch-linear design
Do you see the difference yet?
#52
07-10-2008, 07:14 PM
Originally Posted by Klubbheads
okay, im not disagreeing but where did u come up with this conclusion?
Variable Rate: These springs offer a constant, or uniform pitch, and have an increasing force rate instead of a constant force rate (regular compression springs). The larger coils gradually begin to bottom as a force is applied. A variable pitch can be designed to give a uniform rate if necessary.
#53
07-10-2008, 07:22 PM
Originally Posted by redlude97
Right from your own bolded quote.
Variable Rate: These springs offer a constant, or uniform pitch, and have an increasing force rate instead of a constant force rate (regular compression springs). The larger coils gradually begin to bottom as a force is applied. A variable pitch can be designed to give a uniform rate if necessary.
Variable Rate: These springs offer a constant, or uniform pitch, and have an increasing force rate instead of a constant force rate (regular compression springs). The larger coils gradually begin to bottom as a force is applied. A variable pitch can be designed to give a uniform rate if necessary.
#54
07-10-2008, 07:33 PM
#55
07-10-2008, 09:59 PM
Originally Posted by OCG35
exactly - that's why I thought they "looked" progressive... also, there's this:
exactly - that's why I thought they "looked" progressive... also, there's this:
Originally Posted by redlude97
how are they not progressive when the springs are wound at what appears to be the same spacing while the coil diameter gets smaller
Originally Posted by Glex25
If you have the newer springs(:Progressive) that are kind of fat in the middle you don't need the lower bucket according to Pete@BcRacing.
No clunking sound here.
I adjust springs first and then adjust the shock body until it gets tight or vice versa.
Remember you don't want slack on your springs cause that means that you will be riding on more shock than spring and can blow out your shock body.
No clunking sound here.
I adjust springs first and then adjust the shock body until it gets tight or vice versa.
Remember you don't want slack on your springs cause that means that you will be riding on more shock than spring and can blow out your shock body.
I mis-spoked and I believe it was correctly answered by Blackguy and Pete in this thread
#56
07-10-2008, 10:59 PM
Seriously, dudes. I solved your problem days ago and you continue to argue about it. Straight from the horses mouth... I had two different sources say they are NOT progressive springs. Pete at BC Racing and Adam from z1 auto who CALLED BC up to check for me on the gold spring bucket piece and whether or not the springs are progressive.
Redlude, I know you're a smart dude and know a lot about our cars, but why do you insist on arguing by trying to go over people's head with spring equations from senior year of HS? I don't get it.
If Pete comes on here and says they are progressive springs, then you will be right, but he will have completely contradicted himself (which could happen). But until then, we have been told they are NOT!
Redlude, I know you're a smart dude and know a lot about our cars, but why do you insist on arguing by trying to go over people's head with spring equations from senior year of HS? I don't get it.
If Pete comes on here and says they are progressive springs, then you will be right, but he will have completely contradicted himself (which could happen). But until then, we have been told they are NOT!
#57
07-10-2008, 11:19 PM
How can a spring be progressive?
One of 3 way's.
1. Having a series of coils that are wound closely together as to bind at some point in compression. (common)
2. Having a wire diameter that changes in thickness at some point in the springs overall length (rare, never seen this type in use)
3. Having a tapered design where the outside diameter is not consistant from the beginning to end (used on the following ap's, HKS LS, LS+, II, KW, and Tein Basic front springs)
Since the new rear spring is tapered, it is progressive, however,...................
Tapered springs do not have a wide rate spread between inital and final rates, they also do not have coil bind so the rates cannot suddenly change.
Whoever install's the new design, I'd do whatever you can to reuse the oem rubber insert for the lower control arm, your already at a disadvantage with the thin rubber pad above the upper mount for N.V.H. reason's that come's with the kit.
One of 3 way's.
1. Having a series of coils that are wound closely together as to bind at some point in compression. (common)
2. Having a wire diameter that changes in thickness at some point in the springs overall length (rare, never seen this type in use)
3. Having a tapered design where the outside diameter is not consistant from the beginning to end (used on the following ap's, HKS LS, LS+, II, KW, and Tein Basic front springs)
Since the new rear spring is tapered, it is progressive, however,...................
Tapered springs do not have a wide rate spread between inital and final rates, they also do not have coil bind so the rates cannot suddenly change.
Whoever install's the new design, I'd do whatever you can to reuse the oem rubber insert for the lower control arm, your already at a disadvantage with the thin rubber pad above the upper mount for N.V.H. reason's that come's with the kit.
#58
07-11-2008, 01:23 AM
Originally Posted by 05GRide
Seriously, dudes. I solved your problem days ago and you continue to argue about it. Straight from the horses mouth... I had two different sources say they are NOT progressive springs. Pete at BC Racing and Adam from z1 auto who CALLED BC up to check for me on the gold spring bucket piece and whether or not the springs are progressive.
Redlude, I know you're a smart dude and know a lot about our cars, but why do you insist on arguing by trying to go over people's head with spring equations from senior year of HS? I don't get it.
Redlude, I know you're a smart dude and know a lot about our cars, but why do you insist on arguing by trying to go over people's head with spring equations from senior year of HS? I don't get it.
You can take whatever is told to you by marketers at face value if you want, but I will continue to analyze and decide for myself. You are probably one of the ones that believed VRT's hype also right?
Originally Posted by 05GRide
If Pete comes on here and says they are progressive springs, then you will be right, but he will have completely contradicted himself (which could happen). But until then, we have been told they are NOT!
#59
07-11-2008, 11:20 AM
Gsedan35 and redlude97 have both given examples of why there is question as to progressive or linear… from the start I was thinking the same thing that they have mentioned…
The problem we have is no one has offered an explanation as to how the design is “not” progressive – even though we have several explanations as to why they “are” or “might be”.
Unfortunately, there is too much question for me… and more unfortunate is none has been answered as to how the new design can not be progressive… how does a spring design like that have a linear spring rate? If the answer is: “because black guy and manufacture says its not progressive”… that’s not the answer I’m looking for… can someone explain or post a link for reference please.
The problem we have is no one has offered an explanation as to how the design is “not” progressive – even though we have several explanations as to why they “are” or “might be”.
Unfortunately, there is too much question for me… and more unfortunate is none has been answered as to how the new design can not be progressive… how does a spring design like that have a linear spring rate? If the answer is: “because black guy and manufacture says its not progressive”… that’s not the answer I’m looking for… can someone explain or post a link for reference please.
#60
07-11-2008, 11:56 AM
