brembos suxs in the rain? anyone else? advise?
brembos suxs in the rain? anyone else? advise?
the only thing different is my brake pads which are hawk hp and it seems like I have to bury my brake pedal in the floor for the damn car to stop during hard rain. I am thinking it is my brake pads and that they need to be hot to work but damn I never knew I had to brake so early and hard with these pads. anyone else have this problem?
Registered User
Joined: Dec 2003
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From: Marietta, Georgia
Common for aftermarket performance pads to trade away the UNDER 100F [or even under 200F] to add it to hot temperature range.
There is no free lunch in pad compound designs: less dust less initial bite and hotter operating range means inferior COLD performance.
There is no free lunch in pad compound designs: less dust less initial bite and hotter operating range means inferior COLD performance.
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 2,514
Likes: 5
From: Marietta, Georgia
Every compound has a friction vs temperature graph and a friction vs application speed graph and a friction vs application pressure graph.
These are what makes the compounds different, things like wear and cost are incidentals.
Finding these graphs [trade secrets] is the rub.
Every compound manufacturer tests every compound available.........they buy samples at retail and test them on a special machine.
Depending on others recommendations is not a good way to be sure, everyone has a different agenda.
You will never find a compound that is better in every area combined than oem selection. That's why they spend serious money reviewing the graphs and testing new versions of compounds that maximize THEIR CRITERIA.
http://adrenalineracing.com/images/i...r-vr_final.gif
http://brakepads.wilwood.com/02-graphs/c.gif
http://brakepads.wilwood.com/02-graphs/q.gif
These are what makes the compounds different, things like wear and cost are incidentals.
Finding these graphs [trade secrets] is the rub.
Every compound manufacturer tests every compound available.........they buy samples at retail and test them on a special machine.
Depending on others recommendations is not a good way to be sure, everyone has a different agenda.
You will never find a compound that is better in every area combined than oem selection. That's why they spend serious money reviewing the graphs and testing new versions of compounds that maximize THEIR CRITERIA.
http://adrenalineracing.com/images/i...r-vr_final.gif
http://brakepads.wilwood.com/02-graphs/c.gif
http://brakepads.wilwood.com/02-graphs/q.gif
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Hawk makes many different compounds. The two most popular ones are HPS and the HP+.
You have to pay attention to the "S" and the"+" as getting one or the other is a dramatically different pad.
Here is a post I did while back on a different forum.
You have to pay attention to the "S" and the"+" as getting one or the other is a dramatically different pad.
Here is a post I did while back on a different forum.
I figure a lot of people might find this useful. Here at StopTech we have probably tried out more brake pads on the same car than most. I need to preface this post with a few things.
1. Tires will have more effect on stopping distance than brake pads. Brakes stop the wheels from turning.
2. These are all street pads. None of these pads are intended for track use. On the track brake temps are much higher than they would ever be on the street or a spirited back road drive. One of the guys here went out to a track day on street tires and Axxis Ultimate pads. He had them fade in every session, and it was his first track day!
3. With performance comes the dust. There isn't a brake pad that can give you the most performance and have no dust. If that pad existed, we'd all be using it. With more performance pads also comes with noise sometimes.
4. When considering pads, try not to focus on what materials the pads are made up. The chemicals can be deceiving. Instead, focus on the pads' characteristics. What is their temp range? How much bite do they have? How much dust do they put out? etc.
5. Finally, all brake pads need a good bed-in to work properly. Here is why. http://www.stoptech.com/tech_info/faqs.shtml#15
Axxis ULT (formerly Ultimates) - These are are great for the price. They are used as the standard pad in almost all big brake kits we ship. They have good high bite and a good temp range for a street pad. These have more bite than the Hawk HPS or Axxis D+ pads. The down side is that these pads are by no means a "low dust" pad.
Axxis D+ - Low dust low noise solution from Axxis. Great for the everyday driver. The bite might be a little better than stock. I have not been able to compare back to back which is the only real way to tell.
Hawk HPS - Lower dust Lower noise pad from hawk that a lot of people like. Doesn't have as much dust as the Axxis ULT, and definitely doesn't have as much bite. The temp range is ok, but the ULT pads go higher.
Hawk HP+ - High bite and high MOT(Max Operating Temp). Has a little more bite than the Axxis ULT, but doesn't quite go as high a temperature. It is close though. It does go higher than the Hawk HPS, and it also puts out more dust.
Hawk Perf Ceramic - oooooohhhh aaaaahhhh this has that buzz word "ceramic" I gotta say these are some nice brake pads. I just put them in my car last night. They have more bite than the Hawk HPS, and seem to put out less dust. I haven't had them long enough to really make a judgement. They temp range is that close to the Hawk HPS. In stock caliper form, they are only available for the rear. I have a big brake kit upfront is how I got them up there.
If you are doing Auto-x, Axxis Ultimates or Hawk HP+ are a great choice. These are also good for performance street use.
If you would like something lower dust, I'd go with the Axxis D+ pads. These are low dust, low noise, very compliant pads.
I would say that Hawk HPS and Axxis Metal masters are pretty middle ground. They don't have the most performance, and they don't put out the least dust.
1. Tires will have more effect on stopping distance than brake pads. Brakes stop the wheels from turning.
2. These are all street pads. None of these pads are intended for track use. On the track brake temps are much higher than they would ever be on the street or a spirited back road drive. One of the guys here went out to a track day on street tires and Axxis Ultimate pads. He had them fade in every session, and it was his first track day!
3. With performance comes the dust. There isn't a brake pad that can give you the most performance and have no dust. If that pad existed, we'd all be using it. With more performance pads also comes with noise sometimes.
4. When considering pads, try not to focus on what materials the pads are made up. The chemicals can be deceiving. Instead, focus on the pads' characteristics. What is their temp range? How much bite do they have? How much dust do they put out? etc.
5. Finally, all brake pads need a good bed-in to work properly. Here is why. http://www.stoptech.com/tech_info/faqs.shtml#15
Axxis ULT (formerly Ultimates) - These are are great for the price. They are used as the standard pad in almost all big brake kits we ship. They have good high bite and a good temp range for a street pad. These have more bite than the Hawk HPS or Axxis D+ pads. The down side is that these pads are by no means a "low dust" pad.
Axxis D+ - Low dust low noise solution from Axxis. Great for the everyday driver. The bite might be a little better than stock. I have not been able to compare back to back which is the only real way to tell.
Hawk HPS - Lower dust Lower noise pad from hawk that a lot of people like. Doesn't have as much dust as the Axxis ULT, and definitely doesn't have as much bite. The temp range is ok, but the ULT pads go higher.
Hawk HP+ - High bite and high MOT(Max Operating Temp). Has a little more bite than the Axxis ULT, but doesn't quite go as high a temperature. It is close though. It does go higher than the Hawk HPS, and it also puts out more dust.
Hawk Perf Ceramic - oooooohhhh aaaaahhhh this has that buzz word "ceramic" I gotta say these are some nice brake pads. I just put them in my car last night. They have more bite than the Hawk HPS, and seem to put out less dust. I haven't had them long enough to really make a judgement. They temp range is that close to the Hawk HPS. In stock caliper form, they are only available for the rear. I have a big brake kit upfront is how I got them up there.
If you are doing Auto-x, Axxis Ultimates or Hawk HP+ are a great choice. These are also good for performance street use.
If you would like something lower dust, I'd go with the Axxis D+ pads. These are low dust, low noise, very compliant pads.
I would say that Hawk HPS and Axxis Metal masters are pretty middle ground. They don't have the most performance, and they don't put out the least dust.
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Joined: Dec 2003
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From: Marietta, Georgia
But we were [initial post] speaking of COLD RAIN performance. Do you have any friction coefficient data at 40-50F?
My experience with Q45 pads [about 8 different types/brands] over the last 15 years seems to indicate only OEM bothers to test this low temperature Area.
Because they sell the same pads in Alaska/Canada as they do in South Arizona. What a challenge to get something that will work.
After all the first panic stop of the day will always be under 150F.
My experience with Q45 pads [about 8 different types/brands] over the last 15 years seems to indicate only OEM bothers to test this low temperature Area.
Because they sell the same pads in Alaska/Canada as they do in South Arizona. What a challenge to get something that will work.
After all the first panic stop of the day will always be under 150F.
I installed the Project Mu type NS pads a few months ago and really like them!!!
Better initial bite than the oem's.....very little fade....supposedly very easy on the rotors.....and the best part....virtually NO dust!
Actually there is some dust....but it is kinda silver colored and does not show up.
Better initial bite than the oem's.....very little fade....supposedly very easy on the rotors.....and the best part....virtually NO dust!
Actually there is some dust....but it is kinda silver colored and does not show up.
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 2,514
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From: Marietta, Georgia
"One reason why the aftermarket is following the OEMs so closely these days is because of the new FMVSS135 standards that 2001 model year cars and 2003 model year trucks have to meet. This applies to new vehicles only. There are no FMVSS standards for aftermarket replacement linings. "
"FMVSS135 is a minimum braking performance standard set by the National Highway Traffic & Safety Administration. It’s a tougher standard than the former FMVSS105 rules, which has forced automakers to upgrade the brakes on some vehicle models so they meet the new stopping requirements.
One part of the new rule requires vehicles to stop within the same distance under the old FMVSS105 rules but with 25 percent less pedal effort. To meet this specification, some manufacturers have had to switch to more aggressive linings."
http://www.brakecouncil.org/52102AFPECG.PDF
One of the major problems is that the industry definition of COLD is 200F a temperature that even a panic stop from 50 MPH in 50F ambient won't reach!
"FMVSS135 is a minimum braking performance standard set by the National Highway Traffic & Safety Administration. It’s a tougher standard than the former FMVSS105 rules, which has forced automakers to upgrade the brakes on some vehicle models so they meet the new stopping requirements.
One part of the new rule requires vehicles to stop within the same distance under the old FMVSS105 rules but with 25 percent less pedal effort. To meet this specification, some manufacturers have had to switch to more aggressive linings."
http://www.brakecouncil.org/52102AFPECG.PDF
One of the major problems is that the industry definition of COLD is 200F a temperature that even a panic stop from 50 MPH in 50F ambient won't reach!
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