Hey Guys

FIRST OF ALL, SORRY FOR THE LONG POST, but this topic deserves thorough explanation.

For some of you who have been waiting for the results of my T/C conversion (those of you who read my previous posts on the subject), IT IS DONE!

My custom made Edge Racing (StreetEdge design) T/C just went into my G! My impression? Well, I have got several, but to sum it up: This car has been, truly, unambigously unleashed!.

A little background: I have been looking for a t/c conversion for a little while now, and stumbled upon EdgeRacing Converters by accident. But they turned out to be the oldest and most experienced T/C company on the continent. Andre, the man in charge of this first G35 T/C conversion ever done, really knows his stuff.

Please keep in mind that I have done no dyno or GTech testing yet.

Here is what was done:
1 - The stall speed of our converter has been raised from the stock value of 2200rpm (estimated) to 3100rpm, a 900rpm change.
2 - The torque multiplication has been raised to approximately 2.2-2.4 from the stock value of 1.6.
3 - The clearances in the T/C have been tightened up (no numbers here).
4 - T/C internals (fins/veins) have been furnace brazed to withstand very high temperatures/pressures.

The outcome (for each of the above):
1 - Now the T/C can be spun up to 3100 rpm with the brake pedal fully depressed. Hence, the car can be brake-torqued to this point until the rpm will no longer climb (T/C stall),
2 - The T/C (specifically the stator inside) multiplies the torque generated at the stall speed by 2.2-2.4 instead of 1.6.
3 - Increases the transmission of power from the engine to the wheels by decreasing the amount of slippage occurring in the T/C. This decreases the rpm required for a given speed, increases fuel efficiency, and decreases AT fluid temperature (as a direct result of less slippage).
4- Allows to break-torque the transmission for aggressive launches without the fear of deforming/bending the fins and the general structure of the T/C due to heat/pressure. General longevity of the T/C is now greatly improved.

Guys, guys, guys... this thing is unbelievable.... If you have read my long posts on this subject in the ill-labeled "5AT vs 6MT war" post, we are probably on the same page. If not, doing so would be very helpful. In short, the car is now making well over 400 lbs/ft of torque at launch. Man do I feel those numbers!

The car has been reincarnated into something else! Due to the tightened clearances and the raised multiplication factor (this at standstill launch only), more torque is being delivered to the wheels. The engine moves this hunk of metal much, much quicker. The raised stall speed (though slight) makes the car operate at higher average rpm at high loads (i.e. when you apply a lot of gas). Thus, at a given speed during acceleration a lot more power is delivered to the car my virtue of, first, the engine being more on the upper band of rpms, and, second, the increased multiplication factor in the t/c.

Now, keep in mind that stall speed (the point at which the T/C stalls) is a function of load (i.e how much gas you are applying) and id directly, though not linearly, proportional to it. The more gas you apply, the greater the T/C is going to jump before moving the wheels. So, at partial throttle, granny-style driving, the tach needle jumps only a little more than the stock one did. You wouldn't know it unless you drove the car before and after the mod! This, IMO, small thing is all you sacrifice! Hence the virtually unaffected day-to-day drivability.

When I first launched the car (break torquing to ~3100rpm with full throttle and the brakes depressed, then releasing the brakes), on dry pavement, the VDC came on. But guess what?! It was set to OFF! This is one of those extreme cases, as previously discussed in this forum, when the VDC activates even when it is off. So, I pulled the fuse out completely. Now... repeating the same procedure, at launch the tach jumped to 7000rpm in what must have been about 1 second! I slowly edged forward as i was spinniing the right wheel for about 15 yards. Amazing! This car is simply ... a rocket! Don't know how else to describe it.

And therein lies my problem, as in the title of this thread! Actually two... First, my all-season 215/55 tires were just not designed for this! - and they have about 3% of tread left (not kidding). So, I am in the market for rims, something I didn't want to do but am basically forced to.. Second, I need an LSD! to lock up those wheels at launch. Those who have used them say that it makes a world of difference. Solved one problem, created another one. Now, I can only imagine what these two mods will do to this car...

Well... I am tired... a long post!

Awaiting your comments/suggestions.

Gurgen



<P ID="edit"><FONT class="small"><EM>Edited by gurgenpb on 11/10/03 09:28 PM.</EM></FONT></P>

 

HOW MUCH? (enen though i dont have the g anymore)

My only friend i that i depend on is blue. He makes sure i win. He makes me scared and hold on tight as i sweat. He is my only friend that gives me what i need from a push of a button.

 

gurgen get the wider tires first. I suggest 235 or 245 width. You may well find out you don't need the LSD (yet). the added traction will allow you to do all that you already know it will.

that is my advice. also, your sidewalls are going to take a beating so try to atay with the 17" wheels. 18 or 19's may cause so much torque on the treads that you start chewing pieces off like I did in my altima (240 ft/lb of front wheel torque in the 1:1 gear). I completely demolished a set of Michelin Pilot Sports in one outing because of the immense torque that your car will now see.

additionally you may see much better traction with a full gas tank weighting down the rear wheels

congrats and now you know why all the LT1 and LS1 guys make this their first mod.

Better Life thru Chemistry
Black on Black 03.5 Sedan 6MT - Custom Catback, Custom Intake Tube, HyperGround Kit

 

Congradulation. Can't wait to see the car in action.
By the way, if you are looking for nice set of wheels, I think the VolkRacing wheels group buy is still on in my350z. More pics please when you get the chance.

 

great post man!
gurgen! gimmi a ride on next meet!! haha

 

Good work on the torque convertor.

Are your shifts any faster?

Were you the guy who was also getting the valve body recalibrated? I did a search and could find it. If so, how is that coming along?

 

EK - Nope, that would be me. My stuff isn't back from Level 10 just yet ( somehow UPS screwed up the Next Day Air shipping!!! ) so I've been delayed about 3-4 days. The T/C & V/B SHOULD be in my hands Wednesday or Thursday ( 11 / 12-13 ) so it'll be this weekend ( hopefully ) before I can get things installed & some testing done. I'll report back ASAP.

 

Hey Guys... Thanks much for all your commnets.... I will try to answer every question...

capsule...
The T/C job was $400 and labor w/necessary parts (gaskets, AT fluid, etc) was $600 (including the AT Fluid change). Of the 700, 450 was for pure labor and 150 for parts). Jut the AT fluid was 112 bucks (I knwo, I got overcharged a little, but still have 3 quartz of our $10/quart J fluid).

3point5SE_Auto...
I have actually seen the dyno chart of your altima, Dave (DaveO) pointed it out to me. I was thinking og going to 19's because those are the ones I like. I knwo having a short siderwall is not good in this case, but do you really think 450 lb-ft of torque will do that much damage. Is that how much you had at a brake-torques launch, or more?

GGGGGGG...
I contacted the guys on my350z about the group buy twice, he never returned my pm! Do you know him, are you in the gb yourself? I was looking at the Volk SF Challenge ones, love those! But there is a 2 month wait for those. Does any of you know where I can get those sooner? Help me on this guys....

I may go with 18's not to abuse the sidewall too much. But I just can't stay with my stock 17's and get the wide tires that i want. I can't go wider than 225 on my 17's right?

E_K...
Gene (MeanGene) is the guy who is doing the TC and the valvebody mod. He is putting it in this week. I' anxious to see the resul too. The shifting itself is unaffected, but as i said above. at downshifts, the car revs a little higher to "capture". Overall, it works in the upper rpm band - which is great. Imagine how much more benefit I will get from cams (which work on the upper band).

xkoraznboix and GGGGGGGG...
no problem! I let you drive my car at the next meet. DOn't mind at all. It's all about sharing the knowledge....

Gurgen

 

One more thing guys...

What's kind of weird, and it's something I noticed the first time I punched the car post-mod, is that the intake is producing different sound tones. That is, it got just a little louder. I have been brainstorming this with DaveO, and the best I can come up with is that the car loads the engine much more now, and maybe that has something to do with it. The only thing the installer touched was to remove the right cat, and even if that was mucked up, I would have an exhaust leak and not a different intake tone. Now, it sounds like a combination of injen and the Z-tube (I just the injen in mine): deeper...

I am going to be doing some A/F mixture testing at the the next dyno to see if the mixtre was affected. I know that things like timings and mixture are functions of load also, thus it maybe that they are a little off now.... Just a theory...

Any suggestions guys....

 

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

but do you really think 450 lb-ft of torque will do that much damage

<hr></blockquote>

What on earth makes you think that your G can produce 450lbs of torque??? I don't recall seeing a twin turbo set up on your list of mods.

04 G35s 6MT BS Aero Kit/Nav/Prem
Warning: Objects in Mirror Are Losing!

 

As I said racerX, read my previous post. Because of the high multiplication at launch and the high stall speed, the car DOES produce about that much torque at launch! Not during notmal driving...

I think those who read everything I wrote, know what I mean....

Gurgen

 

whoa awesome setup man. I too have been looking for a t/c conversion for my z.

I have a few questions for you though-
1. You mentioned pulling out a fuse- which fuse was that? Because as I understand it with the Zs/Gs when you power brake (torque brake), power is cut by 30% by the ecu since our tranny is throttle-by-wire and the ecu somehow senses when your foot is on the brake and gas at the same time. The auto Z dudes solve this problem by pulling out the stoplamp fuse- is this the fuse you also pulled?

2. Also you mention now having around 400lb-ft of torque at launch due to your higher torque multiplication with the new setup, but exactly how is that 400 figure calculated?

Thanks in advance I know my questions are somewhat lengthy. =)

 

hey

Ok. I mentioned a link to m previous post. I am going to go ahead and post it here again for your reading pleasure. Look at the calculations below.

As for the fuse, I never knew that. I have the T/S ecu upgrade and I am not sure that it would regress the throttle. Believe me, it sure doesn't feel like the ECU regresses the throttle AT ALL. I pulled the VDC fuse out to completely deactivate it. May be this also deactivates the regression. but I will have to try that taillight fuse pull. Do you have any specifics one that?

Here is a combination of my previous two posts:

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A stock G35S 5AT (mine) makes about 110 lbs/ft of torque at a stock T/C stall speed of 2000 rpm with a multiplication of 1.6. That means at launch from rest 110x1.6=176lbs/ft of torque is delivered to the wheels. Now... the same engien (my car again) makes 205 lbs/ft of torque at 3000rpm. With a tuned T/C with a STR of 3000rpm and a torque multiplication of 2.2-2.4 (lets be conservative here) will pass on 205x(2.2 to 2.4)=451 to 492 lbs/ft of torque!!! Big difference right?

Now for the 6MT guys.... Lets look at a 6MT 350Z (don't have a g35 6MT dyno chrt) torque numbers. What happens when you rev the engine and dump the clutch for a fast launch (and to be honest with you, i am not sure what rpm the clutch is usually dumped at - but let's assume an aggressive 4000rpm)? At this rpm, the Z develops ~220 lbs/ft of torque, and that is all that it can pass on to the wheels because there is no torque multiplication.

So, the 6mt is faster than a stock 5AT when it dumps the clutch: 220lbs/ft vs. 176 lbs/ft. This is kind of apples and oranges though... The 6MT has the advantage by being able to do high rev launches.
But if you compare the same stock 6MT vs a tuned T/C 5AT (something that's not possible with MT's), there is just no contest: 220lbs/ft vs. 451-492lbs/ft !!!.

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Will be posting some numbers soon. Need damn tires though. Maybe I will go with the 18" Nismos!

Gurgen

 

Make sure to measure 1/4 times. How does it behave when you floor it, and hold it down through to high speed (70-120mph)? That's where the trade-off usually is in a "looser" TC; your acceleration actually decreases after a certain point vs. stock with increasing stall rpm. The trick is picking a TC that gives the launch benefit you want without costing too much on the other end.

Good luck, so far it sounds like it's doing what you want.


03.5 Coupe - Black/Willow, 6MT, Premium, Navi, Aero, Sat

 

if the results are what you calculated, i must say this is a very impressive mod.. either way, i would definitely like to see the dyno if you get a chance to get one..

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