FTC Says High Octane Fuels Not Needed?
#16
05-19-2007, 11:38 PM
Higher octane means the fuel actually burns slower as it's a rating for knock reistance. Posting an article questioning the use of high octane is a moot question as most G/Zs have high octane as their recommended fuel 
Now for people that are using premium for engines not designed for them, it's a waste. But sometimes it's necessary as carbon buildup has increased the compression and it's needed to prevent knock. This applies to older cars
Regular gas doesn't burn "better". It burns faster. If you use regular octane in an engine designed for 91+, there is a VERY good chance that the ecu will see much more knock counts than before. Then the ecu is forced to run it's ign program for this. Which usually results in a pretty severe ign retard for xx time until the ecu doesn't see any knock counts. Then the ign timing returns to normal. Result? Retarded timing means big loss of peformance. When the ecu retards timing because of knock, it's protecting the engine so it's going to retard it ALOT.
So yeah, you can run low octane gas if you want to. But say hello to knock and say "bye-bye" to any hp increases for any mods you installed.
Now for people that are using premium for engines not designed for them, it's a waste. But sometimes it's necessary as carbon buildup has increased the compression and it's needed to prevent knock. This applies to older cars
Regular gas doesn't burn "better". It burns faster. If you use regular octane in an engine designed for 91+, there is a VERY good chance that the ecu will see much more knock counts than before. Then the ecu is forced to run it's ign program for this. Which usually results in a pretty severe ign retard for xx time until the ecu doesn't see any knock counts. Then the ign timing returns to normal. Result? Retarded timing means big loss of peformance. When the ecu retards timing because of knock, it's protecting the engine so it's going to retard it ALOT.
So yeah, you can run low octane gas if you want to. But say hello to knock and say "bye-bye" to any hp increases for any mods you installed.
#17
05-19-2007, 11:44 PM
Originally Posted by Msedanman
I believe so....and only very marginally.-- I'm gessing only a few degrees..
On the other hand I've read that the computer can reduce octane very substantially if low(er) octane fuel is used -- in the neighbourhood of 10 -15 degrees!!!
My conclusion is that you should use the proper octane as recommended by the manufacturer, but that you may be able to use a slightly lower octane ( ie mid. or low octane) without loss of power and without pinging.
I heard this many times b4 that regular fuel burns better than premium, is more efficient than premium and will allow the engine to run very well.......
Provided it will run under all conditions without any pinging (which of course can be destructive to the engine).
Provided it will run under all conditions without any pinging (which of course can be destructive to the engine).
Do you consider the VQ35 has a high performance engine? it's up to you:
What’s The Right Octane Level For Your Car?
Check your owner’s manual to determine the right octane level for your car. Regular octane is recommended for most cars. However, some cars with high compression engines, like sports cars and certain luxury cars, need mid-grade or premium gasoline to prevent knock.
Check your owner’s manual to determine the right octane level for your car. Regular octane is recommended for most cars. However, some cars with high compression engines, like sports cars and certain luxury cars, need mid-grade or premium gasoline to prevent knock.
Last edited by Jeff92se; 05-19-2007 at 11:50 PM.
#18
05-19-2007, 11:53 PM
One more IMPORTANT thing to note. If you are turbo'd, SC or have any other form of FI, DISREGAD THIS WHOLE THREAD. You gues need to run the highest octane you can reasonably get your hands on. ie.. 92 or better. If you are at the track or plan to run hard, you probably need something even HIGHER.
NA knock and boosted knock are TWO VERY DIFFERENT THINGS! NA knock will just retard your timing. BOOSTED KNOCK WILL RETARD YOUR ENTIRE ENGINE VERY, VERY QUICKLY! ie.. BOOOOMMM!
NA knock and boosted knock are TWO VERY DIFFERENT THINGS! NA knock will just retard your timing. BOOSTED KNOCK WILL RETARD YOUR ENTIRE ENGINE VERY, VERY QUICKLY! ie.. BOOOOMMM!
#19
05-20-2007, 01:39 AM
Originally Posted by Jeff92se
One more IMPORTANT thing to note. If you are turbo'd, SC or have any other form of FI, DISREGAD THIS WHOLE THREAD. You gues need to run the highest octane you can reasonably get your hands on. ie.. 92 or better. If you are at the track or plan to run hard, you probably need something even HIGHER.
NA knock and boosted knock are TWO VERY DIFFERENT THINGS! NA knock will just retard your timing. BOOSTED KNOCK WILL RETARD YOUR ENTIRE ENGINE VERY, VERY QUICKLY! ie.. BOOOOMMM!
NA knock and boosted knock are TWO VERY DIFFERENT THINGS! NA knock will just retard your timing. BOOSTED KNOCK WILL RETARD YOUR ENTIRE ENGINE VERY, VERY QUICKLY! ie.. BOOOOMMM!
Originally Posted by Jeff92se
The ecu has no ability lower octane. You cannot change the properties of the gas you put in no more than you could change the viscosity of the oil yo put in. But you right, if you use low octane gas in the wrong engine, it will result in a severe timing retard. Read loss of performance
I heard from more than one source that our engines do indeed have octane sensors, one source whom I can remmeber is Q45Tech who usually hangs over at F/A.
Who's correct? Who knows?
Having way too much else to do here I certainly don't have time to get into a lenghly discourse on the subject or any other subject. I don't have that luxury.....
What I have to take time to handle is the bickering and arguing and worse that comes from some of these lenghly discussions that get personal and are non productive!
You Jeff have been complained about many times and have a reputation for being involved in such arguments.
Be prepared for further action if this continues....It's counter productive and not necessary.
We can all be nice to each other, be friends, and discuss sensibly and reasonably, or we will be gone.
I hope I've made myself clear. I don't expect to have to say it again.
Happy posting everyone.
Colin.
#20
05-20-2007, 01:45 AM
Being complained about is one thing. Having any of it actually holding water is another.
I guess trying to clarify things that "might" not be necessarily true is frowned upon. So I'll just go into LEMMING mode and just let this stuff slip by. If it's wrong, it's wrong. Reader beware. I'm out.
Just to let you know, someone in this thread doesn't even own an Infiniti, much less have any vested interest in this site. But they do sell oil. Shouldn't they ahve to pay for sponsor status? Especially if they put their site info in their sig?
Thanks for the warning, it's been noted. A PM would have been nice.
I guess trying to clarify things that "might" not be necessarily true is frowned upon. So I'll just go into LEMMING mode and just let this stuff slip by. If it's wrong, it's wrong. Reader beware. I'm out.
Just to let you know, someone in this thread doesn't even own an Infiniti, much less have any vested interest in this site. But they do sell oil. Shouldn't they ahve to pay for sponsor status? Especially if they put their site info in their sig?
Thanks for the warning, it's been noted. A PM would have been nice.
Last edited by Jeff92se; 05-20-2007 at 01:48 AM.
#21
05-20-2007, 02:00 AM
Originally Posted by Msedanman
Probably very true, but I assumed that we were NOT talking about boosted engines.
Colin.
Colin.
Engine, Drivetrain & Forced-Induction
#22
05-20-2007, 02:14 AM
Originally Posted by Jeff92se
Being complained about is one thing. Having any of it actually holding water is another.
I guess trying to clarify things that "might" not be necessarily true is frowned upon. So I'll just go into LEMMING mode and just let this stuff slip by. If it's wrong, it's wrong. Reader beware. I'm out.
Just to let you know, someone in this thread doesn't even own an Infiniti, much less have any vested interest in this site. But they do sell oil. Shouldn't they ahve to pay for sponsor status? Especially if they put their site info in their sig?
Thanks for the warning, it's been noted. A PM would have been nice.
I guess trying to clarify things that "might" not be necessarily true is frowned upon. So I'll just go into LEMMING mode and just let this stuff slip by. If it's wrong, it's wrong. Reader beware. I'm out.
Just to let you know, someone in this thread doesn't even own an Infiniti, much less have any vested interest in this site. But they do sell oil. Shouldn't they ahve to pay for sponsor status? Especially if they put their site info in their sig?
Thanks for the warning, it's been noted. A PM would have been nice.
He's trying to decide whether to be a sponsor here, Jeff.
I wouldn't doubt that perhaps he doesn't want to any more. I hope I'm wrong.
Have faith in your fellow members here Jeff....I and many others feel they're a quite astute.
Yes you did get a pm also on the matter .
Colin.
#23
05-20-2007, 10:50 AM
Wow, I must say Jeff is getting a raw deal here because I've read this thread three times trying to see where Jeff was giving Steve a hard time. I'm not seeing at all. EVERYTHING, and I mean EVERYTHING, Jeff stated is entirely true. I am very certain I am like Jeff in that I've gotten numerous complaints, but like Jeff, I feel like the facts need to stated so that the numerous myths perpetuated on the site can fade away into the sunset and members become better informed. I guess I'm going risk my status on this site, but I feel people need to know the facts. I'm also a bit ticked because I PAID MY MONEY FOR PREMIER STATUS AND IT DOESN'T APPEAR IN MY SIG ANYMORE. I guess I'll need to talk to my CC company about getting my money back for that, but that's another story.
I'm certain Steve's intentions regarding the use of high octane fuels were good; however, when it comes to the VQ series motors, high octane fuels are a requirement for optimal performance and FUEL ECOMONY. Yes, you can run 87 in ANY VQ motor and it will run fine with no damage done. However, I can assure you the power and fuel economy will go down by 5-10%. The knock sensors on the VQ motors are very sensitive. The slightest sound of knock will tell the ECU to yank out out timing and to richen the fuel mixture to cool the combustion chamber. Will you hear pinging if you run 87 in a VQ? Very doubtful because the knock sensor is very quick to react and can pick up inaudible knock or pinging. Yanking timing and richening the fuel mixture will kill power, throttle response, and MPG. That's a fact. Another fact is that certain aftermarket exhausts can emmulate a pinging noise and/or certain order vibration which the knock sensor will react to and will kill power. I've seen this happen on VQ30s, QR25s, and LS1s.
On Maxima.org, owners have actually dynoed their VQ30s with 87 octane and then 91 octane (recommended). The difference was about 10whp/10wtq. Sport Compact Car dynoed their project 350Z with California grade 91 octane and then 100 octane. Their VQ35 gained about 7whp/5wtq with the 100 test.
I think Steve's original intention was to inform people that higher grade fuels are not needed unless your car specifically needs it and that higher grade fuels are not cleaner. These statements are very true and BP and other big oil companies have gotten in trouble by stating things that lead consumers to believe that high test fuel is better for your engine and is cleaner. I would be a fool to use 91 octane in my wife's 98 Legacy GT because the EJ25 in her Legacy has a lower compression which won't fully use assimulate the 91 octane fuel. What will happen is reduced fuel ecomony and power.
I'm certain Steve's intentions regarding the use of high octane fuels were good; however, when it comes to the VQ series motors, high octane fuels are a requirement for optimal performance and FUEL ECOMONY. Yes, you can run 87 in ANY VQ motor and it will run fine with no damage done. However, I can assure you the power and fuel economy will go down by 5-10%. The knock sensors on the VQ motors are very sensitive. The slightest sound of knock will tell the ECU to yank out out timing and to richen the fuel mixture to cool the combustion chamber. Will you hear pinging if you run 87 in a VQ? Very doubtful because the knock sensor is very quick to react and can pick up inaudible knock or pinging. Yanking timing and richening the fuel mixture will kill power, throttle response, and MPG. That's a fact. Another fact is that certain aftermarket exhausts can emmulate a pinging noise and/or certain order vibration which the knock sensor will react to and will kill power. I've seen this happen on VQ30s, QR25s, and LS1s.
On Maxima.org, owners have actually dynoed their VQ30s with 87 octane and then 91 octane (recommended). The difference was about 10whp/10wtq. Sport Compact Car dynoed their project 350Z with California grade 91 octane and then 100 octane. Their VQ35 gained about 7whp/5wtq with the 100 test.
I think Steve's original intention was to inform people that higher grade fuels are not needed unless your car specifically needs it and that higher grade fuels are not cleaner. These statements are very true and BP and other big oil companies have gotten in trouble by stating things that lead consumers to believe that high test fuel is better for your engine and is cleaner. I would be a fool to use 91 octane in my wife's 98 Legacy GT because the EJ25 in her Legacy has a lower compression which won't fully use assimulate the 91 octane fuel. What will happen is reduced fuel ecomony and power.
Last edited by DaveB; 05-20-2007 at 10:54 AM.
#24
05-20-2007, 12:57 PM
Originally Posted by DaveB
Wow, I must say Jeff is getting a raw deal here because I've read this thread three times trying to see where Jeff was giving Steve a hard time. I'm not seeing at all. EVERYTHING, and I mean EVERYTHING, Jeff stated is entirely true. I am very certain I am like Jeff in that I've gotten numerous complaints, but like Jeff, I feel like the facts need to stated so that the numerous myths perpetuated on the site can fade away into the sunset and members become better informed. I guess I'm going risk my status on this site, but I feel people need to know the facts. I'm also a bit ticked because I PAID MY MONEY FOR PREMIER STATUS AND IT DOESN'T APPEAR IN MY SIG ANYMORE. I guess I'll need to talk to my CC company about getting my money back for that, but that's another story.
I'm certain Steve's intentions regarding the use of high octane fuels were good; however, when it comes to the VQ series motors, high octane fuels are a requirement for optimal performance and FUEL ECOMONY. Yes, you can run 87 in ANY VQ motor and it will run fine with no damage done. However, I can assure you the power and fuel economy will go down by 5-10%. The knock sensors on the VQ motors are very sensitive. The slightest sound of knock will tell the ECU to yank out out timing and to richen the fuel mixture to cool the combustion chamber. Will you hear pinging if you run 87 in a VQ? Very doubtful because the knock sensor is very quick to react and can pick up inaudible knock or pinging. Yanking timing and richening the fuel mixture will kill power, throttle response, and MPG. That's a fact. Another fact is that certain aftermarket exhausts can emmulate a pinging noise and/or certain order vibration which the knock sensor will react to and will kill power. I've seen this happen on VQ30s, QR25s, and LS1s.
On Maxima.org, owners have actually dynoed their VQ30s with 87 octane and then 91 octane (recommended). The difference was about 10whp/10wtq. Sport Compact Car dynoed their project 350Z with California grade 91 octane and then 100 octane. Their VQ35 gained about 7whp/5wtq with the 100 test.
I think Steve's original intention was to inform people that higher grade fuels are not needed unless your car specifically needs it and that higher grade fuels are not cleaner. These statements are very true and BP and other big oil companies have gotten in trouble by stating things that lead consumers to believe that high test fuel is better for your engine and is cleaner. I would be a fool to use 91 octane in my wife's 98 Legacy GT because the EJ25 in her Legacy has a lower compression which won't fully use assimulate the 91 octane fuel. What will happen is reduced fuel ecomony and power.
I'm certain Steve's intentions regarding the use of high octane fuels were good; however, when it comes to the VQ series motors, high octane fuels are a requirement for optimal performance and FUEL ECOMONY. Yes, you can run 87 in ANY VQ motor and it will run fine with no damage done. However, I can assure you the power and fuel economy will go down by 5-10%. The knock sensors on the VQ motors are very sensitive. The slightest sound of knock will tell the ECU to yank out out timing and to richen the fuel mixture to cool the combustion chamber. Will you hear pinging if you run 87 in a VQ? Very doubtful because the knock sensor is very quick to react and can pick up inaudible knock or pinging. Yanking timing and richening the fuel mixture will kill power, throttle response, and MPG. That's a fact. Another fact is that certain aftermarket exhausts can emmulate a pinging noise and/or certain order vibration which the knock sensor will react to and will kill power. I've seen this happen on VQ30s, QR25s, and LS1s.
On Maxima.org, owners have actually dynoed their VQ30s with 87 octane and then 91 octane (recommended). The difference was about 10whp/10wtq. Sport Compact Car dynoed their project 350Z with California grade 91 octane and then 100 octane. Their VQ35 gained about 7whp/5wtq with the 100 test.
I think Steve's original intention was to inform people that higher grade fuels are not needed unless your car specifically needs it and that higher grade fuels are not cleaner. These statements are very true and BP and other big oil companies have gotten in trouble by stating things that lead consumers to believe that high test fuel is better for your engine and is cleaner. I would be a fool to use 91 octane in my wife's 98 Legacy GT because the EJ25 in her Legacy has a lower compression which won't fully use assimulate the 91 octane fuel. What will happen is reduced fuel ecomony and power.
.......and I don't believe that you are privy to all that gets discussed around here (behind the scenes) and all that happens with an incident.-- so it might just be a little difficult for you to make a proper judgement....
I can tell that Jeff is a smart guy like many members here are, and their input is valued, but we've had a conversation or 2 about his 'presentation' and bedside manner as we do with anyone who needs a tune-up in that respect.
I'm sure he appreciates your support as many other members appreciate what I've had to say about the matter.
So let's get this thread back on track b4 it's completely lost-- It's interesting, informative and could be very useful if we can stay away from the bickering, auguing, personal attacks and pettiness that sometimes happens......
We at G35Driver look forward to a long and happy relationship with all our members, but those relationships must be within civil limits and in accordance with the rules.
Happy posting everyone.....
Colin.
#26
05-20-2007, 02:07 PM
Originally Posted by redlude97
I don't see any personal attacks by Jeff in this post either, seems like all he provided was useful info? Why the warning? 
Don't worry about it.......Let us do our thing here and look after what we need to, and you guys do your thing courteously and within the rules.
If there's any more of this off-topic discussion the thread will be closed.
C.
#27
05-21-2007, 10:20 AM
Just a little bit of my .02:
I used to drive a volvo with dead knock sensors / dying - it's a flaw on the early model 850's (mine was a 93). I personally noticed knocking with 87 versus 93 and it is very audible. The ECU didn't know what to do since the knock sensors were intermittent. Ever since then I've tried 87 versus 93 in terms of performance and fuel efficency in several vehicles, including a prius. Honestly I noticed maybe 1-2 extra mpg due to using the high test which my guess is probably due to all the extra goodies they generally toss in to help "clean" the engine cylinder. Personally I think its not worth the additional .20 cents for premium when you have the option of regular, although using during a long trip i use the premium in the prius simply to help clean out anything in the engine.
just my thoughts
I used to drive a volvo with dead knock sensors / dying - it's a flaw on the early model 850's (mine was a 93). I personally noticed knocking with 87 versus 93 and it is very audible. The ECU didn't know what to do since the knock sensors were intermittent. Ever since then I've tried 87 versus 93 in terms of performance and fuel efficency in several vehicles, including a prius. Honestly I noticed maybe 1-2 extra mpg due to using the high test which my guess is probably due to all the extra goodies they generally toss in to help "clean" the engine cylinder. Personally I think its not worth the additional .20 cents for premium when you have the option of regular, although using during a long trip i use the premium in the prius simply to help clean out anything in the engine.
just my thoughts
#29
05-22-2007, 10:26 AM
Originally Posted by erikill
Just a little bit of my .02:
I used to drive a volvo with dead knock sensors / dying - it's a flaw on the early model 850's (mine was a 93). I personally noticed knocking with 87 versus 93 and it is very audible. The ECU didn't know what to do since the knock sensors were intermittent. Ever since then I've tried 87 versus 93 in terms of performance and fuel efficency in several vehicles, including a prius. Honestly I noticed maybe 1-2 extra mpg due to using the high test which my guess is probably due to all the extra goodies they generally toss in to help "clean" the engine cylinder. Personally I think its not worth the additional .20 cents for premium when you have the option of regular, although using during a long trip i use the premium in the prius simply to help clean out anything in the engine.
just my thoughts
I used to drive a volvo with dead knock sensors / dying - it's a flaw on the early model 850's (mine was a 93). I personally noticed knocking with 87 versus 93 and it is very audible. The ECU didn't know what to do since the knock sensors were intermittent. Ever since then I've tried 87 versus 93 in terms of performance and fuel efficency in several vehicles, including a prius. Honestly I noticed maybe 1-2 extra mpg due to using the high test which my guess is probably due to all the extra goodies they generally toss in to help "clean" the engine cylinder. Personally I think its not worth the additional .20 cents for premium when you have the option of regular, although using during a long trip i use the premium in the prius simply to help clean out anything in the engine.
just my thoughts
As for, "maybe", 1-2 more mpg using Premium fuel, this also is a myth, per the Federal Trade Commission and the laws of physics. First off, to discern any fuel economy differences, a strict fuel economy test run must be completed on a predetermined course, using the same exact gas pump to refill the vehicles fuel tank, (to the brim of the filler neck, and not just when the fuel pump regulator decides to stop pumping fuel), with strictly controlled vehicle speeds, correct tire air pressures, the vehicles radio and all power accessories turned off, etc. Using the notoriously inaccurate onboard fuel economy computer, or filling up the fuel tank, setting the trip odometer, driving a week and then refilling the fuel tank and looking at the trip odometer to compare with the mileage travelled vs the previous week, is not even close to valid in determining fuel economy. An exact comparison of the same miles travelled divided by the gallons of fuel used equals the miles per gallon and this is done using a calculator and calculating down to the hundredths of a gallon of fuel and the tenths of a mile travelled.
Just because Premium fuel has a higher price doesn't mean it is any, "better", than Regular fuel. Indeed, the opposite is true, as Premium fuel does not have as high a Btu content, (British thermal unit, a measurement of energy content), as Regular gas does. In the twenty years I have been completing fuel economy test runs, when using Premium fuel vs Regular fuel, the results have shown Premium fuel to actually deliver a tad bit less fuel economy, further validating what the Federal Trade Commission recommends to the consumer and the laws of physics themselves.
Now, does this mean that Premium fuel doesn't have its place? Does this mean that Premium fuel is a rip off? Does this mean that anyone is recommending using Regular fuel in a vehicle where the vehicle manufacturer recommends using Premium fuel? Absolutely not and neither is the Federal Trade Commission. For anyone to post to this thread suggesting otherwise, is deception and an effort to deceive the members of this forum. This is reprehensible conduct at best and a disservice to the members of this forum.
Here is another link that will educate the reader regarding Premium fuel vs Regular fuel. Enjoy!
Gasoline FAQ - Part 3 of 4
http://www.faqs.org/faqs/autos/gasoline-faq/part3/
Steve
CEO of Hi-Tech Oil Co.
Distributing industry leading AMSOIL synthetic lubricants for 19 years
Last edited by HiTechOilCo; 05-22-2007 at 11:23 AM.
#30
05-22-2007, 03:34 PM
Originally Posted by HiTechOilCo
Now, does this mean that Premium fuel doesn't have its place? Does this mean that Premium fuel is a rip off? Does this mean that anyone is recommending using Regular fuel in a vehicle where the vehicle manufacturer recommends using Premium fuel? Absolutely not and neither is the Federal Trade Commission. For anyone to post to this thread suggesting otherwise, is deception and an effort to deceive the members of this forum. This is reprehensible conduct at best and a disservice to the members of this forum.
Steve
CEO of Hi-Tech Oil Co.
Distributing industry leading AMSOIL synthetic lubricants for 19 years
Steve
CEO of Hi-Tech Oil Co.
Distributing industry leading AMSOIL synthetic lubricants for 19 years