<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

Perhaps the grounding kit made up the 1.5 horses that the exhaust depleted.

<hr></blockquote>

I like the alien theory for the 1.5 hp actually... and who ever mentioned a 1.5 hp loss? I'm lost.

<font color=blue>The above statements are only my take on the issue. If you disagree with anything I typed then you are 100% right!</font color=blue>

 

Catatafish,

Thanks for starting a great thread -- I just got around to reading it. I disagree with something you've said here. It's not a big deal, but you've also said it a couple of times on other threads recently.
Since I got some time to kill here's my 2 cents...

You said:
"This is also important to know as the next time I pull up next to a Z or G with giant heavy wheels and Bridgestones on her, revving it (provided they aren't FI), it will be most comforting to know exactly how badly I'm going to shame them"

This is the 2nd or 3rd time I've heard you dis' the Bridgestone, and I'm assuming you mean the Potenza SO-3.

You imply that since it's heavier than the TS-1, it must therefore NECESSARILY have inferior performance. I want to challenge you on that, because I think it's a misconception -- it might hold true for a stock Civic but not for a high-performance car like the G.

Once you pass a certain torque threshold, the ability to deliver as much of this torque to the ground as possible is of much greater value than the weight penalty that the heavier tires impose on the higher torque engine.

The reason it's impossible to immediately translate all of your engine's theoretical RW torque into kinetic energy is because of limitations of grip. Once you hook-up, the engine is still only delivering as much torque to the ground as allowed by the traction of four small contact patches. For a torque-endowed car like the G, where it is easy to spin the tires on launch, this traction is the limiting factor, not the weight of the tires.

Yes, the S0-3's are heavier than the Toyo's. However the S0-3 is regarded as one of the best-gripping (and cornering) street tires out there right now.

Nothing is free. For example, forced induction reduces the engine's longevity. Better handling means less comfort. Etc.
Similarly, some tire compounds that provide superior grip either suffer faster treadwear or are slightly heavier. I think for the G, (and for turbo'd Porsches and Ferraris which are more often than not wearing Bridgestones or Pirellis), the better grip trumps the greater weight.

Once you've maximized grip, the important thing is that the rims themselves are light and the overall diameter of the wheel and tire are not bigger than stock (not only for the VDC, but since that's effectively your final drive ratio -- too big and you lose RW torque).

Anyway, I'm not dismissing the importance of reducing weight -- in fact I just bought some forged ultralight racing wheels and have -- for example -- not bought the Stillen exhaust because it's heavier than stock, and am waiting for a titanium alternative.

Two days ago I ran laps at the track on my stock Michelins (along with a guy on this forum who has a GReddyTT G35). One of the other guys in our session (tuned STi) works as a track marshall and considers the track his second home. Although he was on slicks that day, he has gone through his share of street tires.

We got into a long discussion on tires -- he said the S0-3's are by far the best street performance tires he's ever had, period. Including the TS-1's, the GSD3's, P-Zero Rosso's, FK 451's, etc. (that's my current shortlist, since I need rubber for the new Racing Harts)

My objective is to find the street tire that will give me the fastest lap times, all other considerations are secondary. Performance -wise, the S0-3's phenomenal grip should let me carry more speed into corners before they break loose, and they should allow faster exit speed out of the corners into the straights. Off the line, they'll also let me hook-up at higher rpm's with less wheelspin. The only tire with equal grip might be the P-Zero Rossas, but they wear too fast. But TS-1's versus S0-3's?
All else equal, my money is on the latter... especially if the contest is measured in lap times. That's no disrespect meant to the Toyo either.

Anyway, the S0-3 deserves a bit more respect than you give it -- whether I end up getting that or something else, it's still a world-class tire that's at the top of most people's BEST TIRE list for a reason.

In fact, I just did a google search for *best street tire* and the first list I saw had the S0-3 at the top by a wide margin.

I also checked a Ferrari track club's list to see what tires they prefer to run on. Mostly Pirelli's and Bridgestones. Not a single Toyo.
<A HREF="http://www.easytrack.co.uk/members/listmem2.asp?CarMakeInc=Yes&txtCarMake=Ferrari&i=1 ">Ferrari 2004 track members list</A>

Here's the TVR Cerbera's track members. 12 to 1 guys chose Bridgstones over Toyo's here.
<A HREF="http://www.easytrack.co.uk/members/listmem2.asp?CarMakeInc=Yes&txtCarMake=TVR&CarMode lInc=Yes&txtCarModel=Cerbera&Search=AND&i=1">TVR 2004 track members list</A>



G35Coupe 6MT + Nav

 

Well one thing is for sure, the Bridgestone loses it's tire rating if you get a hole the size of 1/4 of an inch in it. No matter whether you patch, plug or do both. The Michellin Pilot Sport (and I believe the Toyo T1S) does not lose the speed rating if patched properly.

Also, I personally have had horrible luck with Firestone tires (I used to own a 2000 Eddie Bauer Ford <font color=red>Exploder</font color=red> - not a typo) and those tires were a POS. Any company that will not stand behind their products like Firestone (aka Bridgestone) does not deserve my business.

Also, on my wife's 2001 Limited Sequoia, Bridgestone tires came standard. I paid a $300 upgrade to get the Michellin XLT's and am I glad that I did. If you go to Tundrasolutions.com you'll see that the average user is getting 20,000-25,000 miles out of their Brigestones (supposed to be a 60,000 mile tire), and the wife has got over 46,000 miles on the LTX's and they are still going strong.

Therefore I prefer the Pilot Sports (Michellin tires in general) and the lighter Toyo T1S.

<font color=blue>The above statements are only my take on the issue. If you disagree with anything I typed then you are 100% right!</font color=blue>

 

meta,
Sorry I forced you into such a long post, but what a valuable post it is! Your points are very well taken. As for myself, I have more grip than power already given that I have an automatic. I can floor it and not even spin my wheels as it is, and I forget that it might be a bigger issue for stick drivers or people wanting to corner. Since I'm only interested in going in a straight line for 1/4 mile, I don't really care about cornering but you're right, "hooking up" has to happen before the weight will even matter.

Without getting into, "which is better, Pilots or S03s" I will note your points as they are good ones. Thanks for the comments.

2004.5 Coupe/5AT/Ivory/Everything but front spoiler/Nismo CAI/Crawford V5/Crawford Cats/ Service Engine Soon

 

Hey Neff,

All tires (technically) lose their speed rating once patched/ plugged. The only exception would be by using a Z rated patch-plug. But for street use, as long as the plug's in the tread away from the sidewall and the speed isn't excessive standard plugs shouldn't be a problem regardless of the brand of tire.
I wrote a post on that topic somewhere in the Canada forums... one of the guys who was going to the track with us had a patched tire and we discussed whether or not that was a good idea to use that tire.

Yeah I agree with you, I like the Pilot Sports too. Just can't find 'em in the size I want. (...and despite what I said above, I'm still looking at the TS-1's as a possibility).


Hey Catatafish,

Yeah, kinda long post I suppose! That poor dead horse got flogged pretty good -- sorry for the belabored point ;-)

Anyway, your original post was great -- I think it's useful to know the relationship between RW hp/tq lost per pound of unsprung weight. I've always used a slightly different rule-of-thumb -- that a pound of unsprung weight equals 3 to 4 pounds of sprung weight, but I keep coming across various conflicting values, so I tend to take those "rules" more as loose guidelines. But like you said, the effect would be greater with tires at the circumference than with, say, rotors nearer the hub.

Since the traction characteristics of different tire compounds are wild cards, I'd be interested in learning the relationship between the grip of the contact patch versus weight. In other words, if we had two tires of the same compound and one was 245 and the other 235, the weight difference would be about a pound, and it would be at the maximum distance from the centerpoint of the axle, so the dyno would probably favor the 235 slightly. The lighter setup might have quicker acceleration and quicker braking, but the 'grippier' 245 would have a bigger contact patch and could perhaps carry more speed through the corners etc.
I wonder who would have the faster lap time given that all other variables are the same?
It's a pretty fuzzy relationship, but I'd be curious as to what it is.
(my unscientific guess would be that the 245 would win)

G35Coupe 6MT + Nav

 

meta,
Thanks for the words and the time you took to post them.


These are some awesome posts with a great deal of intellectual horsepower behind them. I'd like to see a forum entitled, "Technical thoughts, by Jack Handey" or something where this great knowledge can be stored and never lost. For the guy that wants to spend his Saturday afternoon reading the really deep stuff that eventually leads to automobile Nirvana when full understanding is achieved.

Some of these lengthy posts cannot simply be retyped everytime a newbie comes along and asks which intake or grounding kit they should buy. Many of these posts are opinion, theory, fact, suppositions, speculations, etc. but those that are carefully crafted are simply invaluable to the casual driver.

Mods, if any of you are lurking, consider this a formal request to put a sticky somewhere that categorizes the deep thoughts by category....perhaps intake, exhaust, ECU, metaphysical, whatever. Some of these posts by Meta, Q45Tech, InfinitiTech, Dave O, gurgenpb, Neffster, trentacinque, al, SoCalTed, and a host of others I just can't remember are priceless. For instance the info in the lengthy "pulley" debate is a shame to lose. Same with some of the explanations I've seen for how the fuel maps and ECU work.

Heck, make it a special paid section and charge $15 for the privilege for all I care, I'd pay for something like that. Let a real qualified tech monitor what goes in and pay that guy a cut of the membership fees. Or maybe do an "Ask the techie" forum like some mags do. Food for thought.

2004.5 Coupe/5AT/Ivory/Everything but front spoiler/Nismo CAI/Crawford V5/Crawford Cats/ Service Engine Soon