Cato, I'm glad you finally got them to re-flash your TCU, even if it did cost you a bit. Did you notice any difference? I honestly didn't notice any after my re-flash.[img]/w3timages/icons/frown.gif[/img]

Yes, sharper starting is a fairly common report after the additional wires. Not all, but several.

<font color=blue>[i]GroundingGear™ Equipped </font color=blue>

 

The TCU reflash did not change the way my 03 5AT
operates to the way the 04 does. I didn't expect it to.
The shifting was very good to begin with, considering
my 14 ground wires, 1 directly to the tranny and 1
directly to the TCU. But the shifts appear to be ever so
slightly better. I'm happy I got the TCU reflashed.

03 5AT Sedan, sunroof, splashguards, HKS muffler,
14 wire Grounding kit, Z Duct, Stillen HF/AB
Underbody rear diffusers, Drilled alum pedals,
Stillen sway bars S/H. Sport Tuned Suspension

 

Will the grounding kit make as much a noticeable difference on 6MT's as well?

Twilight Blue G35 Coupe 6MT
Premium - Nav - Aero - Trunk Mat
Injen CAI

 

No - one of the biggest gains in in 5AT performance. You idle, start up and overall idle smoothness will improve tho.

2003.5 DP 5AT Sedan
14.2 @ 97.18
Z-Tube
K&N Drop In & Airbox Mod
10 Wire Hyper-Ground
Crawford Plenum (V4)
UR Crank Pulley
Hotchkis Sways (M/M)
Polk EX-3500 Tweeters/Shock Sensor/H-Liner

 

I can't comment about the 6MT. The Grounding kit probably
helps the 5AT more.

03 5AT Sedan, sunroof, splashguards, HKS muffler,
14 wire Grounding kit, Z Duct, Stillen HF/AB
Underbody rear diffusers, Drilled alum pedals,
Stillen sway bars S/H. Sport Tuned Suspension

 

I've done a lot of 6MTs. Similar reports of smoothness, and increased throttle response. Read the Sept 24th Post, where Rick, unlike most other 6MT Gs and Zs, didn't notice consistent improvements in his Track 350Z 6MT until after the addition of the supplimental wires. He now says it pulls harder and the throttle is more responsive, similar to the 5ATs. Most others with the 6MT that have had it done feel the difference with just the basic 6 wire system.

Of course, because of the change in AT response, the effect is more dramatically noticed!

Other cars, like on the MazdaSpeed Miata, and the WRX, the difference is immediately noticeable on the MT equipped (most are equipped this way) cars.

This summer, I did a Ford 6.0L PowerStroke Diesel with AT. With 560 tq and 325 hp, I'm not sure if I expected him to feel it or not. During the test drive, when he floored it, he said he thought it might accelerate a bit harder, but he was unsure, since he rarely floors it! So, I have to say it's inconclusive re any effects on that vehicle. I did a Triton V10, and the owner definitely felt the difference in idle smoothness in an already smooth engine, and slightly improved downshifts, and he said he was intimately familiar with the acceleration. Shifted to 2nd and did a full throttle out of a turn, and he felt improved acceleration, even with 425 tq stock! So it seems to vary with the vehicle. Seems the more familiar ppl are with their vehicles, the more they notice the differences, however this agin may be vehicle dependent as well as previous driving styles.

Virtually all with G35s and 350Zs, both with the 5AT and 6MT, do notice the difference however.

<font color=blue>[i]GroundingGear™ Equipped </font color=blue>

 

The TCU/ECU wires from GG were a great addition to my 5AT. Shifting response in MM is eons ahead of stock. Don't hurt me for saying this but...you would have to be a very good manual shifter to keep up with the AT transmission post TCU/ECU wire install. There is only the minutest delay between shifts. Really nothing.

I also had the TCU reflash done by the dealer (free) within a week of putting on the wires but couldn't really tell a significant difference since the transmission was already performing very well.

03.5 5AT-S (Black-Willow-Premium-Sport-Aero-10 Wire GroundingGear™-Silverstars-PIAA LEDs-PopCharger-Z Tube-Tint-Stillen Dual Exhaust)

 

Gordgee,

Have you ever tried using caps or coils as supplemental filters along with your wires?

If the issue is indeed about quality of signal, passive filters could potentially make a stock grounding system perform like your high performance wires, OR, vice versa....

If any difference was noticed with filters, it would validate your hypothesis on signal quality.

2004 G35 6MT Blk/Blk Sedan Stillen Air, Stillen Exhaust

 

I'm not sure how using coils or a cap would would improve the signal, other than altering it in some way. To me, that would add some artifacts and further degrade the signal rather than provide for a cleaner one. It's one reason that my EEs have recommended that I NOT add a grounding block to the ground 'cluster' points that some manufacturers add to tidy things up and for looks. It would seem that an active component like a coil or cap would be even more detrimental to the signal.

What are your thoughts, and any specifics I can bring to the EEs for the next time we meet? These guys cost money, so I don't want to waste my time or theirs needlessly.

As a side note, we played a bit with adding a Capacitor to the battery circuit, similar to what Sun Auto's Hyper-Voltage System does. Though it seemed to stabilize the voltage efffects a bit, the improvement over a normal H-G system was maginal in most applications or not even noticed, and just didn't warrant the extra cost, especially to the end-user. It's the reason that we've focussed more on Signal Grounding theory which has been much more successful.

As far as testing re signal quality differences, even in high-end audio applications where statistically significant differences have been shown empirically using different speaker wire and inter-connects, little success has been demonstrated using electronic measurement equipment and expensive oscilloscopes which is the reason no manufacture (that I'm aware) of the audio wires bothers advertising or proving same. I suspect the same would happen with H-G systems, and if the big companies aren't willing to even put in the R&D that GroundingGear™ Ltd has done, well let's just say I certainly can't afford it. This year's budget is already in the <font color=red>red</font color=red>! [img]/w3timages/icons/blush.gif[/img]

<font color=blue>[i]GroundingGear™ Equipped </font color=blue>

 

Hi Gordgee,

I'm not saying in any way that grounding gear does not work, but for now, it seems all the hypothesis on if, what, how and why of grounding gear are subjective and still up in the air. Therefore all ideas are just as valid as another.

Here is one of my thoughts on what "could" be happening. As you know, poor grounding in audio circuits can cause osscilations to form on the DC and show up in the audio signal. In addition to the fundamental osscilation, the osscilations can induce intermodulation to the final processed (audio) signal.

Amplifier designers work very hard to make sure their DC power supplies provide very clean DC, free of hash and noise, to the amp. Some audio manufacturers go as far as to filter the 60Hz AC going into their DC power supplies to further rid the system of noise and hash. The claim is an improved audio system.

Many of the claims made in the home High End Audio industry is IMHO a bunch of herbs and snake oil mixed with a splash of science.

So if it is reasonable to expect analog and digital audio systems to perform less than optimum when fed unclean DC, would it be reasonable to extrapolate the same effect to the car and its ECU?...

If grouding gear can somehow make the car or its ECU run better, could the car or ECU perform its job even better with a cleaner DC supply?... As you know, the alternator makes a hell of a lot of noise on the DC. Can this noise be affecting the cars performance in some way?

I suggest trying passive filters because it would be an easy and cheap way to significantly change the cars DC electrical charecteristics. Putting a cap (1st order filter) across the battery may not be the best place to put it. Try putting it directly across the alternator to directly shunt the source of the noise. Then try putting a series inductor on before the cap (2nd order filter). Try a 3rd order??? The point is to clean the noise out of the DC within inches of the alternator. That way none of the crap will find its way to the ECU.

Secondly, there is a lot of intense noise pulses generated by all the spark plugs sparking off. I guarantee all that noise is spiking through the entire car. Is this affecting the car or ECU in any way? Do grounding wires mitigate this? Will DC filtering or shielding help any further?
None of this stuff affects our stock car stereo because the internal powersupply has been refined to the Nth degree by good audio designers over the last two/three decades. Has the same attention to detail been put into the ECU's power supply?

Until it's throughly evaluated, who knows what purified DC can do to a cars performance. The effect could be just as real or imagined, as with grounding gear.

Grounding gear can easily get as esoteric as high end audio .


2004 G35 6MT Blk/Blk Sedan Stillen Air, Stillen Exhaust

 

You've given me several things to ponder. Enough that I think I'll pass this through some discussion process. Your other noise sources have been considered, at least partially in determination of effective ground points on other vehicles we've already done. Given some time and resources in the future, we may pursue a few avenues of thought you've presented.

I do know that very little work has been done thus far in this respect in vehicle design by the manufacturers. It may come down to cost/benefit just as it applies to most things. How WOULD a truly optimized vehicle perform? Would it be noticeable enough to make it worth while for the manufacturers to do this for production vehicles? The damn capacitors we used on the battery cost me more than $100, and as I've said, we couldn't feel much difference, if at all. It may still be that GroundingGear™ and optimizing the signal ground paths is the most cost effective, as we've so far found.

Maybe some of you out there would like to take some of this and do a bit of experimentation.[img]/w3timages/icons/wink.gif[/img]

<font color=blue>[i]GroundingGear™ Equipped </font color=blue>

 

Just a quick note.

When adding a large electrolytic cap to the system you effectivly shunt out the low and mid frequency noise, but possibly not the hash. Electrolytic caps are rather slow reacting. To filter hash you need a high speed cap like Tantalum, polypropylene, polystyrene or similar.

Remember this is simply transferring all the home high end audio arguments to the car. Like the arguement about which makes a better audio cap - Polystyrene or Polypropylene?

Silver or pure copper audio cables? Amorphous or mono crystaline? Magnetic, paramagnetic or nonmagnetic? Fungshway anyone?

I'm so glad I don't take this stuff too seriously. It would drive me nuts and into the poor house. ;-)

2004 G35 6MT Blk/Blk Sedan Stillen Air, Stillen Exhaust

 

Yeah, I used to be into audio way back. $200 interconnects, etc. My wife put a stop to that. She thinks (and is probably right) that I put too much time and money into R&D as it is. The guys banging out knock-off kits in their basements are making more than I am! [img]/w3timages/icons/tongue.gif[/img] If only I got $1 from every #7 wire everyone else sells (that I developed), I could afford to do R&D some of what you've suggested![img]/w3timages/icons/wink.gif[/img]

<font color=blue>[i]GroundingGear™ Equipped </font color=blue>

 

Wow!
"My wife put a stop to that. She thinks (and is probably right) that I put too much time and money into R&D as it is. "
It sounds like we have the same problems. =P
Good luck with your kits.
Tony



2004 G35 6MT Blk/Blk Sedan Stillen Air, Stillen Exhaust

 

Thanks.

And it's GroundingGear™ Systems Tony, Systems! They (competitors) sell 'kits'.[img]/w3timages/icons/laugh.gif[/img]

<font color=blue>[i]GroundingGear™ Equipped </font color=blue>