I think the issue here is still the tuner's and the aftermarket's lack of knowledge about a (relatively speaking) new platform that has really caught on to performance minded individuals like ourselves... that's why every day we are seeing people push the boundaries of the stock internals only to result in tick...tick..BOOM! While others have successfully (at least for the time being) found a solution to the VQ's quirkiness when mated to an F/I system...

I think one company in particular (APS) has really stepped up to the plate with a complete TT and ST system that delivers in every way possible to provide a reliable 400whp on stock internals w/o ever having to "tune" anything... the problem with other manufacturers is that they (regardless of what they say) were just trying to rush a product to market to a group of *somewhat* well-heeled buyers that can afford to spend $8-10K to install a TT or SC on their $35-40K cars...

 

Nice looking vette. Looks like you are in the Omega turn 4 at Big Willow. Is that Mike Ring behind you in the red NSX?

 

Thanks! Yep, that's the turn! Good eyes.

No, didn't know the guy in the red NSX. I knew the guy in the Viper behind me though.

There was another red NSX there that day that had a turbo setup, running in the red group. Maybe that's who you are referring to?

 

ZO6ified:
Thanks for getting back to me on this. I will explain below why I appreciate your courtesy in getting back to me and the reason for asking. Maybe I can tell if it really is Mike if you give me the date that you were running Big Willow the day the pricture was taken.

The reason I asked is that Mike was one of my business partners, and he passed away from melanoma cancer a few weeks ago. He was a terrific guy (just finished restoring a Ferrari Dino about 8 months ago, a multi year labor of love), and he used to run the local tracks on HPDE days (Big Willow, Buttonwillow, Pahrump, etc) in his red with black top Acura NSX. We have a farewell service for him this Wednesday evening at the Peterson Auto Museum. When he was too sick to drive I kept inviting him to come out and ride the right seat with me, because he loved it so much, but treatments and recoveries from them kept conflicting with track days, and we never got to do it despite best efforts. If this is a picture of Mike's car with you I was going to print it up as a keepsake for his wife. By the way, he had a little model of a blue Z06 that he kept on his bookcase by his desk at the office. Another of my partners had a black ZO6 and also went to the Russell Race Driving School; he recently got a Carrera 4S and gave the 'Vette to his son. (So lots of 'Vette appreciation here!) His Acura was not FI, and he liked Big Willow, so it could be him if it is more than a year old as a picture. Since enrollments are few at these events, and one tries to get to know a lot of the drivers, I just thought there was a remote chance you might have remembered him. He was in his fifties, very friendly, with a closely trimmed beard.
In any event, thanks much for the reply. Maybe see you out there some day.

 

"Not bad, but I was running 1:47's all day at Big Willow with my bone stock G35. I'm a decent driver I suppose, but I don't have much experience - this was only my second track day, and my first with the G35. I know I'm leaving at least another 5 seconds on the table that I can pick up with more experience and some high performance driving school. "

Yes, I agree. My first time at Big Willow in the G35 it was 106 degrees out, and I just cruised around at about 3,000 rpms and turned 1:47's comfortably and never heated it up. That is definitely a track that likes the high horsepower cars, and if you can get the car to "stick" in turns 8, 9, 1 and 2, you are going to run in the 1:30's. But if you make a mistake, you are going OTE at really high speed, which is most distressing. Driver skill is what it is really all about. I had not taken any race driving classes at that time, and was very very cautious. I cannot wait to go back now and see what difference it makes. Assuming your suspension is tuned, I would be surprised if five seconds is all the reduction in lap time that you got going for you after some race driver school. With some stiffer sways and dropping the car an inch on a good set of coilovers, and some wider wheel/tire combo, I would bet you could do something in the high 1:30's at Big Willow with an NA coupe. Your exit speeds on the turns would be pretty high, and that is what translates to that big speed down the straights.






"The issue is detonation. Modern engines with aluminum alloys don't mean squat if you got detonation problems. Hell, you can even fry the most expensive forged racing piston with detonation. And cast iron blocks usually make the best platform for forced induction because they are stronger than aluminum alloy. It's one of the reasons the Supra motor can handle so much power on the stock bottom end. People think its magical, but its pretty simple really: cast iron block, forged internals, low compression ratio for high boost. That's all there is to it. "

Yes, I agree again. That is one reason why I put the J&S Safeguard in, and tuned the car so conservatively. I do not think it wise to push the stock internals more than 7lbs of boost, or the amount of HP and Torque that I have, unless you want to risk reliability and of course detonation. The problem with going to 8.5 to 1 compression, and it really is just a trade off, is that down low rpm and street perf when you are off boost is lackadaisacal. In a Detroit iron block V-8 it is not so bad, but in a 3400 lb coupe with a V-6 it shows, especially when you don't start developing boost until 3000 rpms. IF you use a postive displacement blower, like a lot of the old FI cars used, then you produce boost in gobs starting around 1200-1500 rpms....but by 3000rpm it is all over. If you use a roots blower, then I agree with you. But if you use a centrifugal, which really works a lot like a turbo, just belt rather than exhaust driven, then you have to think a lot more carefully about the low compression/high boost mantra. If you can manage with careful tuning and pre-ignition control the risk, you can have the best of both worlds on a centrifugal, and for a track or road car, as opposed to a street light racer, that is a great option.

"You can avoid detonation in a high compression engine to some extent with large intercoolers to cool the intake air as much as possible, and by running very rich under boost - the more fuel you dump in, the cooler the burn. High octane race gas is another help. But again, you can get the power levels up with the stock compression, but the rest of the motor can't take the added power and you run into problems with the rods, crank, pistons, block, heads, etc. "

Totally agree with you. I do have a large intercooler, very slightly slightly rich mix as the rpms go towards 6,000-7,000 (not a lot-there are other problems iwth over doing fuel rich mix as you undoubtedly know), run a slightly higher octane at the track (blend of California 91-92 and 100 octane unleaded race gas), and also a big oil pan (6.75qts), and a high capacity-efficiency aluminum radiator from Koyo, with a coolant and water mix and Redline Water Wetter. I also use a vented carbon fibre hood with a nose scoop to blast cool air onto and hot air away from the block. By keeping the temperature monster down, and being conservative about boost, you keep your internals safer.




"A bone stock Z06 puts down 353 rwhp and 340 lbs. of torque, and weighs 350 lbs. less than a G35. Bottom line: the only way you will "blow past" a Z06 at a track with your 360rwhp G is if the Z06 driver doesn't know how to drive. "

Sort of agree. Basic conclusion is correct, but assumptions about the specs on my car make them somewhat incorrect. Stock Z06 to a G35 with FI only, absolutely your conclusion is correct. But a)my car weighs about 3,080 lbs now after numerous weight reduction from mods (some mods added weight though!) and b)the suspension and brakes are much better than the stock Z06. On a track that really puts a demand on the handling and takes away some of the advantage of having brute power, like Sears Point or Laguna Seca, and especially Buttonwillow (23 turns in 3 miles) the HP/Torque and weight equation is pretty equal between the cars, but the braking and handling are much better for the modified G35, and thus corner entry, mid corner speed, and especially corner exit speed, are advantage to the modified Gcoupe. On a high HP course like Big Willow or CalSpeedway when running with the Roval, the extra grunt on the Vipers and Vettes gets a chance to ROAR and make some nice advantage at the 120+mph envelope (back straight at Big Willow they are doing 135mph+ and front straight at Cal Speedway they can do 150mph heading into Turn 1.......which is scary as hell the first time....and just as scary the second!)

"I blew past a 911 TT at Big Willow in my Z06 like he was standing still when my car was still stock. Did the same with a '99 Viper with a head & cam package. Does that mean my Z06 is faster than both of those cars? Absolutely not. Both of those drivers were absolutely terrified on the track, while I was blasting around the track taking my chances and having the time of my life. If I had a video camera in the car, it would have looked really impressive: me in my Z06 blowing by both a 911 TT and a modded Viper like they were nothing. But you won't see me bragging that I blew by those cars and saying my Z06 is faster. Because I know the Z06 is dead equal to the 911 TT on the track, and slightly slower than the modded Viper, although easier to drive at the limit. "

Yes, agree emphatically with your point. I have passed 993's and supercharged NSX's and such, and there is no question that those cars were way faster than mine is. Driver is probably 80% of the answer, and car 20%, when it comes to the track. I even got passed by a turbo charged GTI at Sears Point, about half a lap before he lost his left front wheel! But even with limited experience I have taken the Z06 routinely enough on different tracks that when I have been beaten by them, it was clearly by a fellow that was a much better driver than I was. And when I beat them it was because I was a better driver than they were. It is not an issue of which car is better. They are radically different. A four passenger GT cruising coupe and a world class performance two seat sports car. But with some careful mods, you can make them equivalent enough in performance that it is the driver that makes the difference, not the car, and that is the whole point. If I made that sound otherwise, I apologize, because I would never put down the Vette...I really like that car a lot. And for a stock performer, there is not much on this planet that gives more performance return for the dollar invested. I respect your knowledge and appreciation of both cars.

Hope to see you out there on the track.

 

That picture was taken October 8, 2003. I was running with Open Track Racing http://www.opentrackracing.com/

Wow, sorry to hear about Mike. That really sux. That melanoma can be nasty - a true silent killer. I recently spent quite a bit of time at the dermatologist this past winter getting a lot of suspicious looking moles removed. One of them was pre-cancerous already (I'm only 32), and they had to do two biopsies to get rid of it.

I don't think that was Mike in that red NSX from what you described of him. I was running in the Intermediate (blue) group, and it sounds like Mike had a lot of track experience, so I'm sure he would have been running in the Advanced (red) group. From what I recall of the driver of that red NSX in the photo, he was young (20's), and somewhat of an a-hole - I remember him passing me in a turn during a caution flag, which is 2 no-no's, only to have me ride up on him later when we got the green again, and he wouldn't give me the point-by for quite a while. This doesn't sound like Mike at all.

 

I just have one question for you: How did you lose 400 lbs. on the G35? That's a MAJOR weight reduction. I can see it if you had a totally stripped interior, and some carbon fiber body panels, magensium wheels, and a bunch of other expensive light weight components.

Did you actually weigh the car? Sorry if I sound skeptical, but 400 lbs. is a lot of weight that is difficult to lose in the G35.

However, if its true, then I agree. I often said the G35 Coupe would have about the same level of handling as the Z06 if it had the same weight, and had the same tires as the Z06. In stock form though, the G35 is just too heavy and the tires can't keep up with all that weight pushing around.

Not sure I agree with this. The suspension in both cars is excellent. The geometry is probably a bit better in the G35, but the chassis stiffness of the Corvette is much better. The backbone frame design of the C5 gives it incredible strength and stiffness - the G35 feels like a wet noodle by comparison. The only drawback to the Corvette's suspension is its transverse mounted leaf spring, but you only notice this drawback on a bumpy road surface while turning hard (the inside of turn 8 at big willow is an example), but on a smooth road surface, there is no drawback.

If I had to sum the two cars up in terms of suspension, I would say the Z06 is an OK suspension bolted to an excellent frame, and the G35 is an excellent suspension bolted to an OK frame.

As for brakes, well, again they are both great, but do so in different ways. The only advantage the G35 has with its Brembos is they are a 4-piston design, versus the 2-piston side push design of the Z06's PBR brakes. In terms of stopping performance, there is little difference, with the edge going to the Z06 (in stock form). The Z06 stops 60-0 in 105 feet, while the G35C 6MT stops 60-0 in 112 feet. Of course there is more to brakes than just 60-0 distance. The 4-piston design normally adds better fade resistance than a 2 piston setup, but what the Z06 lacks in pistons, it makes up with vastly better active brake cooling. All 4 wheels on the Z06 have ducted brake cooling, which really helps keep them cool and fade-free, especially on a high speed track where there's ample air flow. The G35 doesn't have any such brake cooling, but the 4 pistons help to also provide fade resistant brakes. I've driven both cars at Willow, and I would say their braking performance is a wash - both excellent. Now, the G35's braking with 400 lbs. less weight and the same tires as the Z06 would probably translate into even better braking performance.

Case in point about the Z06's brakes: A few aftermarket companies make brake upgrades for the Z06. Several people have tried spending thousands of dollars on 4 and 6 piston brake upgrades from Wilwood, Alcon, etc., only to find slight to no improvement in braking performance compared to the stock Z06 brakes. Look at most experienced Z06 track drivers, and you'll find most run the stock brakes, even though they could easily afford an aftermarket system. The reason is because the stock brakes work great, and they are much more cost effective to replace the pads and rotors on.

 

I don't believe Eagle1 was saying that the stock G35 brakes and suspension are superior to those on the Z06, but that his modified (as in totally replaced) brakes and suspension were superior. Taking nothing away from the Z06, I might add.

--Steve

 

Mike was a very skillful and polite driver, he would not have done what you described for sure. Looking closely it appears that the driver in your photo has a white helmet....Mike had a darker silver one. So Glad to hear you got yourself checked over and some preventive care on sensitive skin. That melanoma hits fast and is pernicious. It is common to go from first diagnosis to memorial service in six to nine months. You cannot be too careful, especially if you get out in the sun a lot.

Depending on the model, the 'vette weighs about 3085-3230. Typically it is around 3130 (2001-2002 model year). The standard coupe and convertible are more. The G35 coupe in 2003 is about 3435. (The newer model is around 3512, so it is getting heavier). So the spread in weight before we start hacking is about 305 to as little as 205 and as much as 350 lbs depending on what the models and options are.

The drag coefficient for the 'vette is .31 and for the G it is .28, both very good, but about a 10% difference. At 0-60mph it does not matter very much, but at the 50-110 mph range out on the track it matters a bit more.

The 'vette is usually running 12.6" front and 11.8" rear rotors, while the G is running 14.1" Stoptechs all around, with stainless braided lines, four piston calipers all around and Motul 600RBF. Both cars have more than enough brake to lock em up, so the key is tire grip and avoiding fade. That is a lot more rotor mass for heat absorption and dissipation for the G. They just do not fade, and with the braking advantage they give, that means carrying speed a bit longer down the straight and deeper into the turn, and that matters.

Dropping the stock wheels to forged Nismos and RA-1s gives you savings in weight of about 26lbs on the rims alone (from 24.5 to 18lbs each), and about another 12 on rubber (more depending on what tires came on yours). So there you have not only savings of 38lbs of unsprung weight, which is a lot, but also 245/40 in front compared to 225 stock, and 275/35 in the rear compared to 245 stock. Also, a lot more grip from the compound and DOT-R tread design. Dropping that kind of unsprung weight and widening the contact patch helps to improve the already fine acceleration, deceleration and turn in responsiveness. The C5 'vette typically runs a 265/40 front and 295/35 rear...very big feet indeed, but on heavy Goodyears. There are some advantages to wide tires, but also some disadvantages in terms of rolling resistance and frontal resistance. The G is running with much less unsprung weight and resistance compared to stock and that is a performance enhancement.

Stiffer sways and adjustable front upper control arms at 3.5 degrees negative camber, and a 1" lowering on stiffer coilover springs and dampers also help the handling in a major way. The G cannot compete stock (it is not built to do that after all) in its suspension, but with relatively little it steps up its performance remarkably. A Nismo mechanical limited slip differential gives much better power transmittal to the ground exiting corners, allowing you to get on the throttle earlier and harder, with resultant higher exit speeds. All of this at no weight gain.

The tubular steel welded roll bar stiffens the chassis significantly with its six point anchoring, but is not a weight pig because is it not a full cage, only a roll and harness bar.

The very heavy rear seat comes out when you run the track, and the front seats which are incredibly heavy were both removed and replaced with Sparco Milanos. Smaller and lighter rails, no motors, no airbags, no heaters etc. These are the single greatest weight savings item, and it helps lower center of mass by taking them out too.

Spare tire and tools and trunk liners and floor mats and all that junk come out. lots of weight. The 'vette comes with run flats and no spare to shed. You can remove the floor mats though.

Stainless exhaust system, highflow cats and headers etc. on a combined basis save more than 40lbs over the stock system.

Carbon fibre hood saves a little, but only a little because the hood is aluminum to start with.

The supercharger adds weight, some removal of the stock intake reduces some weight, and I took some other minor things out, but not a "strip" job.

So there is nothing magical, and it only gets the cars to being closer in performance and weight than they were without the modifications to the G. Now if you change the equation and make the Z06 based on the new C6...game over. The new platform has bigger brakes, more hp and torque...more more and more. And it is liveable compared to the Viper.

To change subject a bit, what a comparison that is. Having thrown the Viper around the track, wow what a car on straight line response. Just amazing how it leaps forward and keeps pulling. But the corners are not a happy place for the car, it is really heavy, the rear visibility is awful, the firewall expells heat on your lower legs like a blast furnace and the rocker panel that covers the exhaust pipe gets super hot. The seats are not comfortable (I do like the adjustable pedals feature though!). The daily driver utility of it compared to the 'vette is just not up to the test. But it is fun to look at and drive...just not on a long trip. On a track a little supercharged S2000 is going to really give it fits. But that new 'vette is going to be tough to challenge in anything on wheels. It is amazing.

 

Interesting thread, especially since I was pondering forced induction. The question I have is what about the Stillen Superchargers? I heard the Stage 2 is CARB legal (not that matters since I live in Illinois) and has a warantee too. I believe the output is somewhere in the neighborhood of 380 HP. Only bad thing is having to buy a new hood and front bumper to accomidate it.

 

JC:
The Stillen offering is a roots or eaton type positive displacement blower, as contrasted with the centrifugal type (ATI or Vortech), or the mated twin screw (Lysholm or Kenne Bell). It is a very effective booster, but it works differently than the others. It comes on faster, lower down in the rpms, and is done by 3000 rpm. That is great for street and stoplight or drag type stuff, but in my view not matched well for a higher rpm car for road and track performance where you will have the rpms above 5000 almost all the time. So it just depends on how you are going to use the car and what you are looking for.
Turbos are much quieter and gas efficient. They do have more heat issues and plumbing, and they all have a bit of lag while they spool up, but they are an excellent option to consider as well.

 

Thanks for the info Eagle1! So the question is, if I were to put say a stage 2 or a stage 1 Stillen, would I need to make any mods to the engine to handle the new amout of boost?

 

[QUOTE=Eagle1]I don't mean to sound snotty or anything, so please don't take this that way, but there is a lot of misinformation you posted about the Z06 that I feel the need to correct/clarify:

The original comparison was with the Z06, since that was the car you claimed to blow past on the track with your G. The standard C5 coupe isn't relevant here. The Z06 weighs 3,115 lbs., exactly 320 lbs. lighter than a stock G35 6MT Coupe. There aren't many options on either car, so there's virtually no other weight difference other than that.

The drag coefficient for the Z06 is 0.29, not 0.31. Also, drag coefficient is meaningless in determining drag unless you know the frontal area of the car as well as its drag coefficient. You could have a car with a higher drag coefficient have total drag less than a car with a lower drag coefficient, provided its frontal area is smaller than the other car. I'm not about to go measure the frontal area of both of my cars, but just looking at them, they are probably pretty close, with perhaps the Z06 having a slightly smaller frontal area. The nose of the Z06 is much lower and shorter, although it is a bit wider, whereas the nose of the G35 coupe is more upright and taller. Bottom line, I wouldn't say there's any noticeable difference in aerodynamics between the cars that would translate into better track performance.

Another source of confusion: when you say "the G" I take that to mean the stock G35. Apparently you are referrencing your highly modified G35, which I don't know all the details as to what you've done to it. There's a big difference between your modified G and "the" G that we all know.

I'm sure they don't. The Z06's brakes do not fade either. I know the benefits of powerful fade resistant brakes. I'm just saying I doubt you can stop any faster or with more fade resistance than a stock Z06.

No, the Z06 runs those tire sizes. The C5 coupe's tires are smaller.

Who said they're heavy? Actually the Goodyear Eagle F1 Supercars on the Z06 are one of the lightest street legal tires of their size you can find. Substantially lighter than the Pilot Sports. It's one of the reasons the Corvette engineers chose the Supercars - light weight. The same tire is also on the Ford GT and the Ferrari 360.

I'm sure they do weigh a lot, but have you actually weighed all this to see how much the total weight savings is?

The Z06 doesn't come with runflats. The Goodyear F1 Supercars are regular non-runflat tires, again, because they are much lighter and better handling than the runflats.

I disagree with this - the '04 Viper is an incredibley good handling car - in the hands of a very skilled driver. A supercharged S2000 won't even be a slight challenge for an '04 Viper on a track with a skilled driver. Notice I keep saying skilled driver. That's the key with a Viper. If you're not ****** near perfect of a driver, the Viper will bite you hard, and then an S2000 will give you fits. It's not forgiving at all. People often mistake its edgy manner and overwhelming torque leading to throttle induced oversteer with a not-so-good handling car. They are sadly mistaken. I've seen well driven Vipers on the track, and they simply own. Now, what I like about the Z06 over the Viper is that it is a very forgiving car, and very easy to drive near the limit. It's predictable and forgiving, provided you respect the gas pedal. The Z06 makes mediocre drivers look great with relative ease, while the Viper makes mediocre drivers look like they suck, while terrifying them in the process.

The Viper weighs 3,410 lbs. Slightly less than the G35C. A bit porky for a sports car, but I wouldn't call it really heavy.


Yeah, I can't wait to see what it'll do. It's always fun comparing its performance to cars costing triple to quadruple its price.

 

Agreed. I believe there is a website z1motorsports or something like that, whole built short block on sale now for 3500