i see a lot of threads where everyone is talking about going F/I. Lots of ppl talk about TT and such. How come no1 talks about SFR TT? Is it not as good or not as reliable as the other TT kits out there? I'm just asking because i feel bad for the SFR kit. I think it is just as good or even better as any of the other kits out there. If you guys could tell me the reason i would be more then happy to know. Thanks a lot. =). This curiousity is killing me because i'm leaning towards purchasing a TT kit for my 04 g35c 5AT and i want to do all the research i can before i make a decision. I know TINMAN and GXCLUSIV both have SFR/SSR kit (my idols =D) and i'm loving every bit of their cars. I will look forward to your comments. Thanks once again.

 

SFR is not a multi-million $ company like APS, Greddy, Turbonetics, Vortech, or HKS. They're a small company that deals with a customer on a one-on-one basis. Unlike the others, they can build or design a performance package to what a customer needs or wants. The've built 1000hp TT Supras, TT RX7's, etc. SFR is curently working on a 1000hp 350z. IMO ..... All the TT kits on the market for the Z or G's are all pretty much somewhat similar. Just some are more complete than others. Even Greddy or PE can be just as safe as the APS or Vortech, it just needs couple other items to make it safe, and proper tuning is key to making your motor last longer. Greddy and PE came to early in the scene, and blown motors were caused by improper tuning, and over boosting, and not knowing limits of our VQ motors. Your not going to see alot of SFR/SSR kits out there, not because they blow motors, but because they dont do alot of advertising and not located nationwide. Maybe another reason, their TT kits are not the cheapest out there. Their TT package for the Z/G is just as reliable, and can perform equally to or better than any of the other kits on the market. Dont feel bad for SFR, really, they're doing just fine. ..... I initially wanted to go APS, but the smoking issue some are getting, max boost capacity to 12psi, plus too many APS kit out now, and I just wanted something different. Tnetics ST is a great kit as well, possibly best bang for buck for an ST. Just was'nt for me. Oh yeah, and I got tired of the APS vs.Turbonetics BS threads. IMO... Not one kit is better than the other. Decide what is best for you, meets your budget and your power goals.

 

^^^could'nt say better myself.^^^
see,at SFR they taking all the time they have to work on,catering to each customer to ensure the highest level of sactifactions.they DO NOT have a guy who spend all day on the boards for advertising purpose.and that's the main reason why their kit been overlooked.unlike them take APS for example.Peter was everywhere and he use all kind of skills/tricks in the trade to promoted their kit.plus the fact that most people when they first look at FI route they come in forum to read/research.and all they see is APS here, APS there.very soon everybody want APS just because other peoples want it.i **** you not,atleast 10 persons looked at my car and asked.what kind of turbo kit is that?Greddy?i just open my eyes wide and shook my shoulders.Greddy been around for long time,they make kits for jusr about every car out there.so because of their reputation,most people instantly think of Greddy when it come to Turbo.Turbonetic and Jim Wolf?they are also nationwide/worldwide reputation companies.again,like he said.don't feel bad for SFR.it not like they all sitting there Yawning and wait for someone here to order their kit.remember they are making kits for other cars too.and that's why they still haven't schedule to have my car dynotune yet.damn it Tim,you hear that??? LOL....the fact is Tim is not treating like a customer,he treated me like his brother.he went extra steps to meet my demand.and that is why i'm willing to wait a little bit of my time to fit his time.i've come the long way.i already waited all this time,it not going to kill me to wait 1-2 more weeks.
remember,it doesn't what kit you get.10% is components and 90% is tuning.my car is everything to me and i trusted SFR 100% with my car because Tim is guy who know *****.i'm planning to push 17-18psi soon and i'm completely confidence to do so.why 17-18psi? because that's the max boost level other kits runs.i just want to see how much HP can i get out of that.Tim said it should break 600whp mark easily without a sweat.will see.
the evil side of me said: go ahead get OTHER kits.the less people gets SFR the better..buahahahaha.

 

This is true, Tim is a very very nice guy to deal with.

Come oooonn, Steve. I respectfully YET very affirmatively disagree. This is simply not true. If tht'sthe case, than the logic behind what you are saying doesn't make sense. If it's 90% tuning, and you are sayong that the components don't matter, then why spend $3000 more for a kit that provides far inferior turbos and engine management, ones that are mismatched for our engine as far as compressor efficiencies are concerned, and one that uses SS manifolds (although of VERY good, equal length design), which are BY FAR not as durable as cast ones, regardless of how well they are made. I am honestly not trying to rain on your parade steve, honest. I consider you a good friend, but what you are saying just doesn't pass logical muster.

Another thing, it is absolutely NOT 90% tuning, 10% components. I have no idea where you cam up with that. There is no reason that a good tuner can't achieve the BEST POSSIBLE tune for a given setup. At that point, all that's going to matter is component quality, design, and choice for a given setup. Intercooler design (bar-plate-type or not), pressure drop in the system across the intercooler, air induction (cold or hot), oil pan design (expanded/cooled or not), engine management, boost control, fuel system (manifold-referenced 1:1 rate, return style)... These all add up to increase efficiency DRAMMATICALLY and allow for a far better behaved/designed system.

1) It's a FACT that all the old T3, T4, T6, etc. series are OLD 70's and 80's technology turbos. They are far less efficient than the Garrett GT series turbos, or the new series IHI (used by PE) turbos. You don't need to take my word for it, just do some reasearch on the net, overlay the compressor efficiency diagrams over the flow characteristics of our 3.5 L engine, and you will have your enswer. I have already done this for GT28R, Mitsubishi 18G, and PE 1420 turbos, just run a serach. And if you choose the ball bearing option with SFR, the price jumps north of $9K for parts alone. Come oooon.

2) It's been widely written (Check out Corky Bell's "Maximum Boost" - I read it at least twice cover-to-cover) that watercooled turbos last twice as long as oil-cooled turbos. THis is especially relevant for a street driven car, that is nopt going to undergo a rebuild after every race.

There are other instances, and I and many others have written much about it over the last year... I am just too pressed for time to regurgitate it once again.

Again, Steve, your choice of SFR is TOTALLY AND 100% valid, as your objectives as i can tell were to find a shop that will give you 1-on-1 attention and personal service...again that's valid. And every person should have his own objectives fullfilled when choosing a certain company for their turbocharging projects. However, saying that SFR is better on technical merits, is simply FALSE. I will debate (in a civil, objective, and friendly matter) anyone on the facts of comparing APS TT, PE, SFR, Greddy, APS ST, TNetics, Vortech, ATI, whcih is the order, btw, in which I would choose them in a "money is no object" scenario.

I respect your decision of going with SFR, the 1-on-1 service is something to definitely consider.

Making power is not a problem if you have certain components up to snuff. APS already has a ~750 whp 350z running. So what does that say?

PLEase don't take any of what I said personally, i am not trying to be combative, just trying to get the truth out.

I have been wanting to write a detailed comparison table with all the turbo kits and 100% objective facts comparing them to one another. I will try to find some time to do jsut that.

 

Gurgen my friend.
honestly that 90% and 10% are just the numbers i throw out there to magnified the fact that proper tuning is the key.NOT just spend bunch of money to buy good parts and call it a day.
i never said SFR kit is better than any kit out there.doen't matter which kit,they all has pros and cons.all i did in previous post was telling what i think why SFR not being popular compare to other kits.simply responed to the 1st post.and also telling how i feel about SFR.believe me,they don't pay me a penny to to this.sound like you are defending APS against SFR.what happen to PE bro?
i also did not brag about the fact that my car will make that much power because as you know.that's nothing really.yes i heard about 750whp APS but that's from what Peter said right? i don't see anything post anywhere except in that one thread from 350z_tech.that mean they still working on it right?otherwise it would be all over their website and forums.i also heard that the Havoline's G
will make 800hp.i heard Tom's (white35) will make 900hp.i also heard Tim's Z will make 1000hp.but until they get there,they're just simply talking.but i have no doubt in my mind that about a year from now,there'll be whole bunch of 1000hp turboed VQs runing around.and that is not from one manufacture alone.
to make it short.just as many member here,i respected you a great deal because what i know is not even 1/10 of what you know.that's the fact.debating with you in public place is fricking suicide.but this much i know,you can not give a good tuner a everything stock car and expect him to get 700hp out of it.off course you need all the quality components you can get.but if you bulletproof the car and not having proper tune,it still goes kaboom.and even with good parts/good tune combine,there's still a chance of things goes wrong.nothing in this world is perfect.
hope you understand where i'm coming from.
steve

 

Getting off topic here, not another this kit vs. that kit or which kit is better. Original post was asking why not so many interest on the SFR kits or not so popular, compared to the others. As I stated, they are a small company and do not advertise like the big guys ( APS, GReddy, Tnetics, Vortech, etc. ). They prefer to deal with customer on a one on one basis. They can build and customize a kit to suit your needs. They build custom exhaust, intake manifolds, headers, etc.etc. They do offer a basic TT kit for G/Z, but they can and will build any TT kit you want. IF you want a 1200hp G35, they can do it, obviously you'll need to rebuilt your motor and tranny. If you want, chose which type of BOV's you want ( Greddy, HKS, Godzilla, etc. ). Custom fit a single IC, instead of dual intercooler. The other companys mentioned, will not offer that. Hell if you want a Garrett turbo instead of the T3, they will put those Garrett turbos on your kit instead. I even considered the larger Garret T35s', but its overkill and xpensive, and the 60-1 ball bearing turbos will do just fine with me. All the kits available are great kits, they have their pros and cons. You just have to do your homework and decide which FI kits suits you the best.

 

Gurgen,

I have no idea where you are getting your info from especially when it comes to our turbo choice.These turbos and equal to the HKS GT 2535R turbos used on alot of Supras and Skylines.I have the measurement of these turbos and the Turbonetics turbos we use and they are almost idlentical. You better have another look at the turbos and compressor maps we are using because they are not 70's technology.You might also want to find out the turbine wheels size and A/R to really get the true story.Efficiency maps really mean nothing if you cant do a real comparison with the turbine and housing sizes as part of the eqaution(unfortunately these are hard to find).

Now onto the engine management.....you are dead wrong here buddy and let me explain why.........Who has Carb Legal FI kits for the G and Z right now? Vortech and Stillen.What do these companies use for engine management? The Split Second FTC just like we do.So basically I am saying that if it is accurate enough to get Carb Approval then it is good enough for us to use with our system.Accuracy is the key and this is why we use the Split Second box.It is much better then a reflashed ECU since the Nissan ECU cannot read boost like the Split Second can. Remember the Split Second has a built in MAP sensor which makes tuning a breeze.

About our headers.........have you heard of any cracking? Some cars have 25K miles on them and they still look great. We put them together quite a bit better the the old PE headers.We use Rath microweld stainless which is superior to anything you will find in China and our TIG welding is second to none.This means we make the better header.We can also do them in 321SS which means that we build a header that is second to none.As far as flow goes,our headers will outlfow all cast manifolds in existance while reducing backpressure.


To sum it up....you are not comparing apples to apples here.Our kit has many improvements over the other offerings out at this time.If this wasnt the case then we would have done it just like everyone else.Cast log manifolds,T28 or equivilant turbos,internal wastegates,etc.........However, the SFR turbo system is not for everyone.The PE,APS,Greddy is very capable of making power reliably if it is tuned right.So is our kit.I just dont see why you are trying to compare our kit to the PE kit when frankly there is no comparison!
In fact, if you want to look at a real world unbiased comparison of the two kits as far as performance goes.......then look at the Sport Z turbo shootout.We made like 65 more horsepower at the wheels then the PE kit even though both cars were running auto trannies.

Hopefully this was not written to harsh but I get all defensive when I see a post such as yours and the bombing you decided to administer.So anyways, we will let our product speak for us and keep trying to produce high qaulity parts for the G' and Z's.Take care.

 

Steve, I truly consider you a very good friend, I really hope that all that I have said you do not take personally. SFR is an awesome group of people to deal with, including Tim, who is a very knowledgeable guy.

As far as APS making that much power is a fact, although they have not gone public with it yet. But that's neither here nor there, you are right, until people see it for themselves, it's moot.

I never thought that SFR paid you to support them, and neither does APS pay me to support them (why would anyone do that). I do drive a PE after all. What happened to PE? Well, it SUCKs in many ways, especially as far as completeness is concerned. No EM, incomplete fuel system, and a couple of other thigns. The reason I mentioned APS is that it seemed to me (maybe erroneously) that this quote by you: "unlike them take APS for example.Peter was everywhere and he use all kind of skills/tricks in the trade to promoted their kit" is misleaading. I can't recall APS or Peter EVER being tricky or misleading about it. Their website is very detailed about their kit, and about the technology behind it, and all you have to do is 1) have an open mind, 2) the time, 3) objectivity and 4) read up on the kit and the technology behind every design element to make a good decision.

 

Gurgen,
I can think of couple where Peter mislead customers. Few months back, Peter clearly stated the APS TT kit, will and should pass carb cert.process, and is currently testing emissions in Australia. Well, just couple weeks ago at 350zmotoring, he stated APS is going to come out with a carb approved APS kit sometime later this year or early next year. Well that sucks for guys who bought the kit hoping for that carb.oe#.
........ Heres another where Peter mislead customers. When APS released the dyno results for the very first '05 G35 done at Brainstorm. Peter posted, the car dynoed something like 425+ on a completely stock G35. People replied to that post asking what the psi was. Peter ignored that answer for few weeks. I actually called Brainstorm, and they said the G35 was not stock, it had APS exhaust with 2.5" piping and APS test pipes and was dynoed close to 10psi. They told me it was an agressive tune and something they would'nt recommend for their customer.
........ How about the guys with built motor and bought the APS TT kit. Just to find out later you cannot boost pass 12psi, due to weak wastegate springs. Which means you need to wait for an APS big fuel system to be released in future or find other parts or resources to get those springs.
.......... Another issue I have is how APS dealt with customers with the " smoking issue ", last time I checked the poll at 350zmotoring, seemed nearly half with the APS TT kit had that issue. APS supposeably had couple fixes ( 5qrt.oil instead of 6, trim return lines ), most tried those fixes and did'nt fix the issue. APS then blamed them for installing the kit themselves instead of a qualified shop. Some of those guys had it installed at an authorized APS dealer.
....... Peter does know his stuff, when he was on this forum, did a good job answering most if not all questions asked regarding APS or FI related questions. Definitely is a great salesman for APS. APS is a great kit, probably the most complete, and I almost bought one. I just opted to go a different route for my FI fever.

 

wow all my idols in one room haha. . . . . neways i think SFR is the way for me because i actually like interacting with people. That's the way it should be in my own personal opinion. These days big business have too many consumers to give out that type of interaction. I really think i can rely on SFR 100% from what i've heard from you guys. My decision was made entirely on my own and you guys had no persuasion involved. I'm really looking forward to boosting my 35 by end of this year. Maybe a early christmas present for myself. I am still a rookie in F/I so i hope to learn a lot from you guys in the near future. Thanks for all the information that you provided me with. =)

 

Thank you for still consider i'm your friend.i know you a long time Gurgen.you're my friend then and you're my friend now.i never take anything your said personally,swear to god
i never said APS making high power is BS.as i stated before,very soon there're many car that make high power.and APS is most likely the first to reach that goal because of they have enough times and resource.i've ALWAYS said APS is a good kit.
you can go back and check every of my posts to confirm that statement.
"take APS for example" yes that what i said why? APS is the most sucessed kit out there now.it normal for me to use them to compare with SFR.again,my reply was an anwser to why SFR is not that popular.why APS on top right now? because "Peter used all kind of skills/tricks in the trade to promoted their kit" and that my friend,it in the good way.i don't see that misleading at all.it not like i'm saying.Peter is tricking you guys into buying the kit,it's a bad kit,don't buy it.and he did it in forums not the website.everything on website is detailed in black and white.
i can see that Peter is your friend and you somewhat upset by my post.if so sorry and sorry to anyone else too.from now on i won't say anything about APS.that's a promise.i'm very happy with what i have right now.there's no reason for me to go sh1tting at other peoples.life is too short to going at each others.i rather go to offtopic forum and laugh.
have a good day
steve

 

Hey Guys,

I think eveyone that is posting like Gurgen,Tinnman, Exclusive,etc....are real nice people who I have met in person or talked with on the phone.Gurgen is very smart and seems to know his stuff when it comes to Z's.The fact is that I dont think his intent was to knock SFR down or pump up APS.He was just keepin it "real".It is nice to see in these days of the internet and all the BS associated with it. He brought up some points or concerns and I tried to respond the best I could. I apoligize if it was offensive in any way. For the most part, I just like to answer questions and concerns.I think all the kits on the market have some advantages and disadvantages. The thing about SFR is that the guy behind this screen is designing, making, testing and tuning these parts we are talking about.I do it because I love cars.The guys that work here are like my brothers and we make bad *** parts.

Once inawhile you might get some rep guy on here answering questions,etc.....but it is a whole different thing when the guy behind the screen made the part on your car with his own hands.That is what we bring to the table.In fact, maybe in the near future, we could have an install tech session on one of our turbo systems at the shop? Show you how me make the headers,intercoolers,etc..... from raw materials,install a turbo system,etc......or maybe a dyno day.I can set it up to run on a DynoDynamics or a Dynojet.Tinman can bring the Bar-B-Q:^)

 

Tim, I acknowledge the fact that you really know your stuff, and never questioned your knowledge or experience. It is just from my own research that I say that the I would prefer to have the GT series Garretts or IHIs to the Tnetics or the T-series. As far as the tehcnology behind them, I do stand behind what I said. I will try to get some links if I can find them again.

I agree that it is absolutely "good enough", and it has the capability to be "locked out" for carb purposes from what i heard, but it is by far not the best choice. It is the most cost-effective choice, I would definitely agree with thta. Emanage ultimate, for example, does far better injector scaling, one that does NOT involve MAF voltage scaling/spoofing, which as you know advances timing significantly on these cars. Both unicjip[ and emanage have MAP-based tuning as well.

As far as Nissan ECUs not reading boost: yes that is true. But just like MANY OEM FI cars (audi's as an example), usign the MAF sensor, provided it has enough range, is a preferred (though more complicated I admit) way to tune cars. Is this feasible on our cars? Yes and No. THere is enough range on our MAF sensor to tune a car up to about 6-8 psi without the need for any additional MAP-based hardware. Anythign greater than that would involve a MAF housing diameter upgrade to gain range and a whole new set of maps. But this is outside the realm of what is usually done, as very good tunes are possible with the far simpler/versatile MAP-based tuning. The reason that I say MAF-based tunign is preferred, and why it's used by so many OEM's, is that it actually measures the mass of air coming in, which is a direct indication of how much fuel needs to be added. This is why very good and well-researched flashes tend to have very very consistent AFRs. Any MAP -based OEM setup requires a VE (volumetric efficiency) map as well, to be able to compute how much of the air has actually entered the cylinders at given RPM and measured pressure (MAP), since no direct measurement of the mass of air is available, such as the case with MAFs.

Completely agree, as I have said this to you during our phone conversations as well as on this board many a times. The workmanship quality of SFR is very very high, and it is FAR better than that of PE, that's not even a real contest. And like I said, given that they are equal length, they will flow very very well. I am just saying that in the realm of a street driven car, bumpy roads, long periods before overhauls (as opposed to race cars), in my humble opinion, cast manifolds will in the long run prove more durable, not necessarily better performing (just durable).

Well, hostility aside, I do not agree with you at all. It is very much a comparison. Are SFR manifolds better made, absolutely. Engine management, yes (PE doesn't have one). But as far as turbos themselves, their sizing, the intercooler, oil pan, PE wins. It's up to the individual to make up their mind, but I would say it's definitely far from being a 'no comparison' situation.

I am sure that you are aware of this, the PE car just came out of the garage the day before and had no chance of being tuned. Another thing, XS Engineering, who has a very poor track record with the HKS Fcon, has originally tuned that PE car... and what a shame that is. So, unfortunately and to my dismay, that was a really poor exemplar of the kit and it's capabilities.

There was no bombing of your kit, and I just do not see why you would get so defensive. SFR is a very capable kit, and for those that want a very thoroughly worked and quality product should definitely consider it. I just do not agree with some of the design AS IT WOULD PERTAIN TO ME and IMHO to a street driven high performance car. AMong all the kits, all well tuned by the same tuner and competing head-to-head, it is 7 out of 10 times a drivers' race, not the cars'. I jsut think that, again IMHO, that the price that you charging, and I am talking about the kit as you advertise it on your site with the listed compenents and not a custom setup, is a premium not for the components included, whcih in my opinion are very important, but for the workmanship of the beautiful hand-made manifolds and the excellent personal service. Would I ever choose SFR? I definitely would, if I wanted to do a custom setup (although now I do not think I would be welcome there). Would I choose the compenents that are in the kit now? No. That's what I am saying.

In talking about the kit, I never intended to, or did, become personal in my comments... it was all about the design of the kit. And I think that it is appropriate not to have any kind of character assasination. I hope that this is not taken personally by you at this point.

 

Got you, Steve. I guess I misunderstood what you were saying as hostility. My bad. As far as APS and why I advocate they kit. I have just become very sensitive to all the BS misinformation that was directed at good vendors, one of which is APS. It seems like it unfairly became a punching bag for some, and because all this is done under the "veil of internet", such careless remarks and shots can spread like wildfire and be perceived as truth. On the facts, APS's products are top notch, period. One evidence of this, just one of many, is their attention to detail and execution. Just take a close look at the design. This is why I like this kit. Remember, I have PE. And in was the best kit at the time that I was buying it. That has changed now, with more choices on the market. What would I buy today if I was building an all out system? APS TT. So, I am not defending APS because Peter is my friend, but because they have the most research and expertise behind them and have the best FI choice, again IMHO, that money can buy, period.

 

Tim, my post above (the long resposne to your long post ) had been started before you posted this response.

I really did hope that you did not take it personally. When you are the one that designs the kit, and I seemingly question (which I do not, simply disagree) your choice, I can see why you would take it as offensive toward you, since you are the very designer. I swear to you that this has never crossed my mind this way. I like you very much, and you obviously have far more experience than I do, as you have been doing this for a long time. I am just someone with an extensive science background, and one who does his homeowrk and research extensively, and supplement that with experience by seeking the help of people who truly have it (hence my conversations with you), the guys who installs the Darton sleeves (Steve), Peter, David (of APS), Howard and Richie (of TEchnoSquare), just to name a few, that's all. And what I was saying is simply a matter of opinion (e.g. turbo choices). So, I hope that the above dialogue is perceived as none other than scientific discourse.