Thinking of going Stillen S/C
#151
04-20-2006, 02:19 PM
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ok screw it I have all the mean area of those graphs in a % of area under the curve from 2200-5500 rpms 2200-6600rpms, but if you say they're useless and not aligned (there's going to be some error just cause all these people didn't dyno on the same day at the same place you know) then i suppose those dynos are 100% useless then I won't post the info - shame, I thought people would find it useful
not aligned? WTF? I have them aligned down to the pixel - and like I said, the very nature of people's dyno graphs means there's room for error in the first place.
I thought we were interested in what a stillen SC and vortech SC would generally put down in a given rpm range
otherwise someone give me some freakin graphs - I'm offering up some graphs I found
you need a break down of 100 rpms? look at the graphs man - the data is there. Break it down yourself. Have you ever dynoed your car? You don't get a readout of 100rpm break downs - you can get the software to do that usually, but most of the time, people just want to see the graph cause it shows all the data graphically - and that's what people post
give me some graphs - align them yourself if you have better photoshop skills (I make my living in the graphics field - 3d medical animation, photoshop is kid stuff compared to the software I use)
not aligned? WTF? I have them aligned down to the pixel - and like I said, the very nature of people's dyno graphs means there's room for error in the first place.
I thought we were interested in what a stillen SC and vortech SC would generally put down in a given rpm range
otherwise someone give me some freakin graphs - I'm offering up some graphs I found
you need a break down of 100 rpms? look at the graphs man - the data is there. Break it down yourself. Have you ever dynoed your car? You don't get a readout of 100rpm break downs - you can get the software to do that usually, but most of the time, people just want to see the graph cause it shows all the data graphically - and that's what people post
give me some graphs - align them yourself if you have better photoshop skills (I make my living in the graphics field - 3d medical animation, photoshop is kid stuff compared to the software I use)
Last edited by sentry65; 04-20-2006 at 02:35 PM.
#152
04-20-2006, 02:26 PM
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I take the area under the graphs, fill it with black, the rest of the area above is filled with white. I then use an average function and get a grayscale % that shows how much of that area is filling up the given rpm range
and it's easy to calculate any given RPM range - except dynos don't dyno below 2000 rpms
but you say it's all crap though.....so I'll pm the percentages to anyone that wants to know. It's actually kinda interesting
and it's easy to calculate any given RPM range - except dynos don't dyno below 2000 rpms
but you say it's all crap though.....so I'll pm the percentages to anyone that wants to know. It's actually kinda interesting
Last edited by sentry65; 04-20-2006 at 02:39 PM.
#153
04-20-2006, 02:39 PM
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#154
04-20-2006, 02:43 PM
I posted this in the thread "Stillen vs Vortech. Pro's and Con's" and went unrefuted by anyone. Please take into consideration my setup is using the stock Vortech pulley and stock injectors. Additional mods that help power are a 1/2" plenum spacer, high flow cats and Injen TD exhaust.
Since this post I have been to the dragstrip and was only able to pull off a best 1/4 mile of 13.4 with a 60ft of 2.1. Without better traction I won't improve my 60 ft times which should be in the 1.8 - 1.9 area. By speed shifting I could be very close to 12's but I poosayfooted the shifts which loses valuable time. Supercharged G's with 5AT have been seen to put down significantly better times.
This is my opinion about torque "under the curve" with my car...
Since this post I have been to the dragstrip and was only able to pull off a best 1/4 mile of 13.4 with a 60ft of 2.1. Without better traction I won't improve my 60 ft times which should be in the 1.8 - 1.9 area. By speed shifting I could be very close to 12's but I poosayfooted the shifts which loses valuable time. Supercharged G's with 5AT have been seen to put down significantly better times.
This is my opinion about torque "under the curve" with my car...
Originally Posted by BeerViper
Here are some thoughts from someone that drove a stock 6MT G for 2 years and then instantly upgraded to a Vortech S/C with Injen true dual exhaust with high flow cats...
The stock torque of the car at the wheels is about 225 lb/ft so driving the Vortech equipped G it is quite noticeable at any RPM that there is a definite increase in torque over stock. My car dyno'd at ~300 lb/ft (@5.7 psi peak torque) which by the dyno I attached you can see is reached at around 4800 RPM's and held all the way to redline. However you should notice that at 2800 RPM's there is already ~240 lb/ft so between 2800 - 4800 RPM's you are only increasing another ~60wtq.
As for the horsepower you can see how linearly it climbs to a peak of 366 whp (@5.7 psi) at around 6400 RPM's.
I also have dyno sheets from a dynapak dyno that negates any traction factors of the dynojet and gives you "chassis" power numbers. These graphs basically mirror the hp and tq curves seen in the dynojet with slightly different numbers.
In my opinion the Vortech setup has plenty of torque compared to stock and the "area under the curve" is very respectable. Additionally as others have said I can drive around with very little boost by keeping the RPM's low and therefore the car behaves like stock when considering fuel economy. The Vortech builds boost with RPM's whereas a Stillen twin-screw uses a blower with fixed displacement regardless of RPM.
My first attempt to track my Vortech G was last weekend but unfortunately Mother Nature didn't want to let that happen My rescheduled date for the track will be April 14 or 15 so I will let everyone know how this turns out.
I will be heading to the dragstrip this weekend to see how she does over the 1/4 mile (with the PIAA 19's). Hopefully within the next year I plan on getting a set of track tires/wheels and possibly some other upgrades along the way like intake and a bigger FMIC (and injectors may be a needed next step as well).
The stock torque of the car at the wheels is about 225 lb/ft so driving the Vortech equipped G it is quite noticeable at any RPM that there is a definite increase in torque over stock. My car dyno'd at ~300 lb/ft (@5.7 psi peak torque) which by the dyno I attached you can see is reached at around 4800 RPM's and held all the way to redline. However you should notice that at 2800 RPM's there is already ~240 lb/ft so between 2800 - 4800 RPM's you are only increasing another ~60wtq.
As for the horsepower you can see how linearly it climbs to a peak of 366 whp (@5.7 psi) at around 6400 RPM's.
I also have dyno sheets from a dynapak dyno that negates any traction factors of the dynojet and gives you "chassis" power numbers. These graphs basically mirror the hp and tq curves seen in the dynojet with slightly different numbers.
In my opinion the Vortech setup has plenty of torque compared to stock and the "area under the curve" is very respectable. Additionally as others have said I can drive around with very little boost by keeping the RPM's low and therefore the car behaves like stock when considering fuel economy. The Vortech builds boost with RPM's whereas a Stillen twin-screw uses a blower with fixed displacement regardless of RPM.
My first attempt to track my Vortech G was last weekend but unfortunately Mother Nature didn't want to let that happen My rescheduled date for the track will be April 14 or 15 so I will let everyone know how this turns out.
I will be heading to the dragstrip this weekend to see how she does over the 1/4 mile (with the PIAA 19's). Hopefully within the next year I plan on getting a set of track tires/wheels and possibly some other upgrades along the way like intake and a bigger FMIC (and injectors may be a needed next step as well).
#155
04-20-2006, 02:52 PM
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Originally Posted by G35_TX
Why do you think Lightings are so damn fast? Or Mustang Cobras with this type of SuperCharger?
because they have big displacement and are a V8...more potential. Had nothing to do with ford using roots blowers. Roots blowers generally are more reliable because the power is all low in the powerband and not up high where you're going WOT. That means warrenty work is cheaper for Ford in the long run
#156
04-20-2006, 03:02 PM
Originally Posted by sentry65
because they have big displacement and are a V8...more potential. Had nothing to do with ford using roots blowers. Roots blowers generally are more reliable because the power is all low in the powerband and not up high where you're going WOT. That means warrenty work is cheaper for Ford in the long run
#157
04-20-2006, 03:06 PM
Also saw this on Stillens site:
For claimed numbers, that's not a very big hp/$ ratio... .0181 horsepower per dollar spent, am I reading that right?
Originally Posted by Stillen
Supercharger Horsepower Increases Over Stock
STAGE 1 - Flywheel - 82 hp / Wheel - 67 hp
STAGE 2 - Flywheel - 95 hp / Wheel - 75 hp
STAGE 3 - Flywheel - 123 hp / Wheel - 101 hp
Our Price: $5,239.00 (Stage 2)
STAGE 1 - Flywheel - 82 hp / Wheel - 67 hp
STAGE 2 - Flywheel - 95 hp / Wheel - 75 hp
STAGE 3 - Flywheel - 123 hp / Wheel - 101 hp
Our Price: $5,239.00 (Stage 2)
#158
04-20-2006, 03:57 PM
Honestly I think both kits are great but for those who are into tracking, turbo would be best fit (JWT TT seems to be better choice/ NOT turbonetics/Greddy/APS..when they haven't get CARB). For those as daily/city driver Stillen is a GREAT choice...FYI...this is where most people spend 90% of their driving
So if you're a daily driver....*** the rest of other kit...GO STILLEN
So if you're a daily driver....*** the rest of other kit...GO STILLEN
#159
04-20-2006, 04:01 PM
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Originally Posted by BeerViper
Just for clarity sake, you should know that the Stillen SC is a twin-screw and not a roots supercharger. There are subtle differences between the two types.
hmm well i dunno, I suppose many people have messed that one up cause lots of publications like sport Z magazine etc have said it's a roots SC. I guess Stillen does say it's twin screw on their website, but they're so similar anyway I don't see a big issue with calling it one or the other. Twin screw is basically a modified roots type that's a little more effient than roots
either way though it does what it does regardless of what it is labeled
some reference for those that care:
http://auto.howstuffworks.com/supercharger3.htm
Last edited by sentry65; 04-20-2006 at 04:11 PM.
#160
04-20-2006, 04:14 PM
When you're talking about 90% of your driving as daily/city you're talking about putting around, not getting on it. If you're daily driving on the highway and you want to pass someone ... you downshift. It's going to happen in any auto trans car when you step on the pedal!!! The rest of the time why do you need all the extra power (read: torque) when you're just moving with traffic? A twin-screw supercharger is always building boost, with a centrifugal supercharger (or turbo for that matter) when you are not on the throttle (vacuum) there is no additional boost over atmospheric pressure to the intake. In the end what this means is that NA fuel economy can be obtained in FI engine provided you stay out of boost (not possible with a stillen).
#161
04-20-2006, 04:20 PM
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Originally Posted by BeerViper
When you're talking about 90% of your driving as daily/city you're talking about putting around, not getting on it. If you're daily driving on the highway and you want to pass someone ... you downshift. It's going to happen in any auto trans car when you step on the pedal!!! The rest of the time why do you need all the extra power (read: torque) when you're just moving with traffic? A twin-screw supercharger is always building boost, with a centrifugal supercharger (or turbo for that matter) when you are not on the throttle (vacuum) there is no additional boost over atmospheric pressure to the intake. In the end what this means is that NA fuel economy can be obtained in FI engine provided you stay out of boost (not possible with a stillen).
yeah I agree 100% which is why the vortech and ATI kit are great choices for automatics - just floor it and it downshifts and you're in the power band with way higher power than what the stillen would do.
I guess if you're driving around in 4th or 5th gear at 2500 rpms on the street and are too lazy to shift and decided to floor it, the stillen will give you more torque and boost - but at such a low engine speed, your power (hp) is only going to be just marginally better than a vortech anyway - like a 15-20hp difference. You don't make any real power until you get up in the rpms - which is where the vortech gives you the power
Last edited by sentry65; 04-20-2006 at 04:26 PM.
#162
04-20-2006, 04:28 PM
Originally Posted by sentry65
hmm well i dunno, I suppose many people have messed that one up cause lots of publications like sport Z magazine etc have said it's a roots SC. I guess Stillen does say it's twin screw on their website, but they're so similar anyway I don't see a big issue with calling it one or the other. Twin screw is basically a modified roots type that's a little more effient than roots
either way though it does what it does regardless of what it is labeled
some reference for those that care:
http://auto.howstuffworks.com/supercharger3.htm
either way though it does what it does regardless of what it is labeled
some reference for those that care:
http://auto.howstuffworks.com/supercharger3.htm
I'm not trying to flame anyone here but this is how misinformation spreads... if you are not informed factually about something then please don't state it that way. I can understand (somewhat) if you are going by a magazine article that misstated something. Just goes to show you that you need to take everything you read with a grain of salt or two because some of it may be @ss-speak.
#163
04-20-2006, 04:31 PM
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yeah I know all that, roots and twin screw deliver power in really the same sorta way as far as boost levels and rpms. They both sit on top of the engine, both have dual rotors, etc
Everyone for the last 3 years has called the stillen a roots so i thought it was a roots.
the twin screw is just a more effiecient roots blower in my book
another comparison:
http://www.kennebell.net/techinfo/ge...romcatalog.pdf
Everyone for the last 3 years has called the stillen a roots so i thought it was a roots.
the twin screw is just a more effiecient roots blower in my book
another comparison:
http://www.kennebell.net/techinfo/ge...romcatalog.pdf
Last edited by sentry65; 04-20-2006 at 04:36 PM.
#164
04-20-2006, 04:32 PM
#165
04-20-2006, 04:39 PM
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yeah I almost see the difference between the stillen and vortech as being parallel to different cam profiles
daily driver people like the big low end tq cams, and racer people like the cams with all the power up high
off the line in traffic I can see people flooring it until they get up to the 45mph speed limit and the stillen will launch harder than a vortech would. The vortech feels more like you're easing into warp speed
daily driver people like the big low end tq cams, and racer people like the cams with all the power up high
off the line in traffic I can see people flooring it until they get up to the 45mph speed limit and the stillen will launch harder than a vortech would. The vortech feels more like you're easing into warp speed
Last edited by sentry65; 04-20-2006 at 05:00 PM.