My impressions of Stillen Stage 2
#34
05-14-2006 | 12:36 AM
Only a few companies are selling the JWT TT. I don't think it can be purchased without install by the authorized dealer.
I've only seen install and tunes come out of www.violentracing.com and performance motorsports in NY. AAM is authorized but I haven't seen them do an install or tune.
I've only seen install and tunes come out of www.violentracing.com and performance motorsports in NY. AAM is authorized but I haven't seen them do an install or tune.
#36
05-14-2006 | 10:37 AM
Originally Posted by rookie
Only a few companies are selling the JWT TT. I don't think it can be purchased without install by the authorized dealer.
I've only seen install and tunes come out of www.violentracing.com and performance motorsports in NY. AAM is authorized but I haven't seen them do an install or tune.
I've only seen install and tunes come out of www.violentracing.com and performance motorsports in NY. AAM is authorized but I haven't seen them do an install or tune.
#37
05-14-2006 | 07:54 PM
this is a good thread. I like to see people talking "positively" about the various offerings in FI without finding it necessary to slap down everything other than the one they proclaim "the best".
A lot of what is best for any person and car depends heavily on the use they intend to put it to. The positive displacement style blower, (Eaton or Roots, which is what Stillen is), is a very simple, tough as nails application. It does suffer from belt breakage issues, but hey, carry a couple of extras and the tools you need to swap out for a new one and it is not a big deal. It brings on power RIGHT NOW and down low in the rpm band...so much so that by 3,000 rpm on the VQ35DE motor you are all done....you got it all. Sooooo, for a street application that is one awesome set up. All superchargers have that telltale whine like a jet airplane. With the windows down.....if you like that stuff, it is really fun. ALL SUPERCHARGERS have parasitic loss due to being belt driven. So gas mileage suffers, as does ultimate peak power output. But since peak power output is only truly relevant on a dyno chart since you do not live at that level with the car....one should not get too focused on it. Without issues of lag and complexity, the supercharger is a truly great device for the aftermarket enthusiast. Tuned properly, it can give a stock internals car a tremendous blast of additional, and reliable, power. This is the real genius in the Stillen package. He does not give the market something that is going to blow their cars up left and right. Is it the most power? No. So what? It works, and works well. If you go to an intercooler and a few other tweaks, you can eke out some very nifty power gains, certainly as much as you can find a use for on the street. Thus, I would characterize this a "high performance-street" application. It really should be complemented with a careful package of handling modifications, because that kind of power can get you into some spots of difficulty....but again, if one stays on the street those changes do not have to be radical or expensive. you don't need a BBK, or expensive suspension rework, to get some upgrade in handling that would also add to the car's joyful driving experience.
The centrifugal superchargers are a different animal. The ATI Procharger and Vortech are really the two most popular in this arena. Essentially they are turbos that are belt driven. Thus they are "lazy", not really getting into power until around 3,000 rpm and not getting bestial until 5,000rpm. But zowie do they scream out the power at 5,000 and above....which is great for the track and aggressive driving, but less desireable for the street. However, for freeway cruising you are not in the boost so your mileage is pretty good until you get on it hard. I had the ATI for 23,000 miles and it was a good unit to me.
The lysholm twin screw, or in this country the whipple charger, is another unit that is pretty outstanding. I have not seen an application to our motors yet, but it is a fine racing addition, and a bit more expensive. It delivers power low down in the band like a roots blower and keeps it coming on like a centrifugal, so you get seamless power early and all the way up. The responsiveness is incredible and off the line it just kills turbo units. If it was available for our cars it would be another interesting option. But at the moment all the challenges of having it adapted, fuel management etc., are still in the realm of the untested for our car.
The turbos, single and twin, are now pretty well understood in their applications to our cars. Not perfectly, but three years ago there was zilch and a lot of blasted motors have been endured between then and now. One of the big issues of course is proper sizing of the turbos themselves...and it is not an easy mission to figure out. The complexities and price of turbos are a negative, but their efficiency is wonderful, as is their low noise level. Heat management is a real problem with them as well.
The balance of getting efficiencies, high power, low lag, etc. are a very artistic challenge for the tuner of a turbo car. And there are limits to what can be done once the size of the turbo is selected. It does not take much difference in turbo size to get a car that delivers more power, but with undesireable or "sub optimal" characteristics. So we have a lot of situations where one has an application that is "close" but clearly not the best after it is lived with for awhile. Turbos are good on stock internals with low boost if they are small, in my view. On built motors one can go with more robust applications, fiddle with sequential types (small one that is followed by a bigger one), twins, singles and so forth....to deliver some really big power.
The built motor twin turbo is pretty much the warlord of the field for trackwork, together with the centrifugal or lysholm superchargers. Without a built motor you cannot get the huge power without breaking your internals. The single turbos can produce lots of power, but the lag is a very serious problem on a track. The roots blower is on a declining power curve for the rpm levels that you work with on the track, so it really is better for street, and even drag, applications. That does not mean that you cannot drive the roots or ST on the road racing circuit, only that they are less than optimal compared to others available.
So, the VRT type TT "supercar killer" is really a built motor track application....that you can drive on the street if you want to. And it is an expensive proposition, in no small part due to the comprehensive suspension modifications that it takes to pilot that much power around a racetrack.
Obviously, I put that on my car because that is what I wanted to evolve to after the ATI and increased emphasis on track utilization. It is not an application that makes sense for many people, but for those that are in that frame of mind and use, it is a terrific package.
The Stillen SC is really a street application on stock internals...that you can drive on the track if you want to. It is a relatively affordable proposition, in no small part due to the fact it is a "bolt on" addition of power. What it can use is a carefully considered incremental application of handling modifications, depending on what the driver's use of the car will be. Will he/she just toodle around town and once in awhile give it a "squirt" for that rocket launch feel? If so, not much really has to be done. Are they going to be driving in a more spirited fashion? If so they could do with some basic yet high yield changes, like sways and such. Are they are an experienced and true "driver" that knows how to safely pitch the car around and recover....because if they are that suggests another whole level of mods to the suspension above the first. Are they going to track the car? If so, serious looking into a BBK, and LSD and perhaps lightweight flywheel and clutch are in order. Driveability and client reaction are important considerations when deciding how far to go.
I think Mike has made an excellent decision to go with the Stillen under these circumstances, and probably he should not go too far up the ladder on the handling upgrades. With the rocket beast in the garage available for when he needs a speed fix....he has it well covered.
As for when the JWT TT will be available more broadly.....that is totally up to JW. There are a lot of things in this world that are more important than money, even in business. Reputation and integrity are two that should never be for sale or compromise, for once lost they are never regained. When they are elements that are attached to YOUR name....it is hard to overstate their importance. For whatever balance of considerations that are not our privilege to know, business and other, JW is not releasing broadly what many are coming to recognize as one of the finest applications of turbo power to our motors. Given his reputation and record in the industry, I am inclined to rest comfortably that he has thought it out carefully and knows exactly what he is doing and why. Having lots of units out there, installed by DIY enthusiasts incorrectly and blowing up, is not necessarily a good plan.
A lot of what is best for any person and car depends heavily on the use they intend to put it to. The positive displacement style blower, (Eaton or Roots, which is what Stillen is), is a very simple, tough as nails application. It does suffer from belt breakage issues, but hey, carry a couple of extras and the tools you need to swap out for a new one and it is not a big deal. It brings on power RIGHT NOW and down low in the rpm band...so much so that by 3,000 rpm on the VQ35DE motor you are all done....you got it all. Sooooo, for a street application that is one awesome set up. All superchargers have that telltale whine like a jet airplane. With the windows down.....if you like that stuff, it is really fun. ALL SUPERCHARGERS have parasitic loss due to being belt driven. So gas mileage suffers, as does ultimate peak power output. But since peak power output is only truly relevant on a dyno chart since you do not live at that level with the car....one should not get too focused on it. Without issues of lag and complexity, the supercharger is a truly great device for the aftermarket enthusiast. Tuned properly, it can give a stock internals car a tremendous blast of additional, and reliable, power. This is the real genius in the Stillen package. He does not give the market something that is going to blow their cars up left and right. Is it the most power? No. So what? It works, and works well. If you go to an intercooler and a few other tweaks, you can eke out some very nifty power gains, certainly as much as you can find a use for on the street. Thus, I would characterize this a "high performance-street" application. It really should be complemented with a careful package of handling modifications, because that kind of power can get you into some spots of difficulty....but again, if one stays on the street those changes do not have to be radical or expensive. you don't need a BBK, or expensive suspension rework, to get some upgrade in handling that would also add to the car's joyful driving experience.
The centrifugal superchargers are a different animal. The ATI Procharger and Vortech are really the two most popular in this arena. Essentially they are turbos that are belt driven. Thus they are "lazy", not really getting into power until around 3,000 rpm and not getting bestial until 5,000rpm. But zowie do they scream out the power at 5,000 and above....which is great for the track and aggressive driving, but less desireable for the street. However, for freeway cruising you are not in the boost so your mileage is pretty good until you get on it hard. I had the ATI for 23,000 miles and it was a good unit to me.
The lysholm twin screw, or in this country the whipple charger, is another unit that is pretty outstanding. I have not seen an application to our motors yet, but it is a fine racing addition, and a bit more expensive. It delivers power low down in the band like a roots blower and keeps it coming on like a centrifugal, so you get seamless power early and all the way up. The responsiveness is incredible and off the line it just kills turbo units. If it was available for our cars it would be another interesting option. But at the moment all the challenges of having it adapted, fuel management etc., are still in the realm of the untested for our car.
The turbos, single and twin, are now pretty well understood in their applications to our cars. Not perfectly, but three years ago there was zilch and a lot of blasted motors have been endured between then and now. One of the big issues of course is proper sizing of the turbos themselves...and it is not an easy mission to figure out. The complexities and price of turbos are a negative, but their efficiency is wonderful, as is their low noise level. Heat management is a real problem with them as well.
The balance of getting efficiencies, high power, low lag, etc. are a very artistic challenge for the tuner of a turbo car. And there are limits to what can be done once the size of the turbo is selected. It does not take much difference in turbo size to get a car that delivers more power, but with undesireable or "sub optimal" characteristics. So we have a lot of situations where one has an application that is "close" but clearly not the best after it is lived with for awhile. Turbos are good on stock internals with low boost if they are small, in my view. On built motors one can go with more robust applications, fiddle with sequential types (small one that is followed by a bigger one), twins, singles and so forth....to deliver some really big power.
The built motor twin turbo is pretty much the warlord of the field for trackwork, together with the centrifugal or lysholm superchargers. Without a built motor you cannot get the huge power without breaking your internals. The single turbos can produce lots of power, but the lag is a very serious problem on a track. The roots blower is on a declining power curve for the rpm levels that you work with on the track, so it really is better for street, and even drag, applications. That does not mean that you cannot drive the roots or ST on the road racing circuit, only that they are less than optimal compared to others available.
So, the VRT type TT "supercar killer" is really a built motor track application....that you can drive on the street if you want to. And it is an expensive proposition, in no small part due to the comprehensive suspension modifications that it takes to pilot that much power around a racetrack.
Obviously, I put that on my car because that is what I wanted to evolve to after the ATI and increased emphasis on track utilization. It is not an application that makes sense for many people, but for those that are in that frame of mind and use, it is a terrific package.
The Stillen SC is really a street application on stock internals...that you can drive on the track if you want to. It is a relatively affordable proposition, in no small part due to the fact it is a "bolt on" addition of power. What it can use is a carefully considered incremental application of handling modifications, depending on what the driver's use of the car will be. Will he/she just toodle around town and once in awhile give it a "squirt" for that rocket launch feel? If so, not much really has to be done. Are they going to be driving in a more spirited fashion? If so they could do with some basic yet high yield changes, like sways and such. Are they are an experienced and true "driver" that knows how to safely pitch the car around and recover....because if they are that suggests another whole level of mods to the suspension above the first. Are they going to track the car? If so, serious looking into a BBK, and LSD and perhaps lightweight flywheel and clutch are in order. Driveability and client reaction are important considerations when deciding how far to go.
I think Mike has made an excellent decision to go with the Stillen under these circumstances, and probably he should not go too far up the ladder on the handling upgrades. With the rocket beast in the garage available for when he needs a speed fix....he has it well covered.
As for when the JWT TT will be available more broadly.....that is totally up to JW. There are a lot of things in this world that are more important than money, even in business. Reputation and integrity are two that should never be for sale or compromise, for once lost they are never regained. When they are elements that are attached to YOUR name....it is hard to overstate their importance. For whatever balance of considerations that are not our privilege to know, business and other, JW is not releasing broadly what many are coming to recognize as one of the finest applications of turbo power to our motors. Given his reputation and record in the industry, I am inclined to rest comfortably that he has thought it out carefully and knows exactly what he is doing and why. Having lots of units out there, installed by DIY enthusiasts incorrectly and blowing up, is not necessarily a good plan.
Hope your trip was good, and we will see you this weekend.
#39
05-14-2006 | 09:06 PM
^^^ (2 posts up) That has got to go down as one of the best, interesting, informative post ever! I really appreciate the clear concise information and explanations. It was long – but not babble… well worth the read.
Not much more needs to be said when explaining different FI options. This one will be referred to often!
Thanks for posting it!
Not much more needs to be said when explaining different FI options. This one will be referred to often!
Thanks for posting it!
#41
05-16-2006 | 09:47 PM
Originally Posted by Eagle1
The turbos, single and twin, are now pretty well understood in their applications to our cars. Not perfectly, but three years ago there was zilch and a lot of blasted motors have been endured between then and now. One of the big issues of course is proper sizing of the turbos themselves...and it is not an easy mission to figure out. The complexities and price of turbos are a negative, but their efficiency is wonderful, as is their low noise level. Heat management is a real problem with them as well.
The balance of getting efficiencies, high power, low lag, etc. are a very artistic challenge for the tuner of a turbo car. And there are limits to what can be done once the size of the turbo is selected. It does not take much difference in turbo size to get a car that delivers more power, but with undesireable or "sub optimal" characteristics. So we have a lot of situations where one has an application that is "close" but clearly not the best after it is lived with for awhile. Turbos are good on stock internals with low boost if they are small, in my view.
The balance of getting efficiencies, high power, low lag, etc. are a very artistic challenge for the tuner of a turbo car. And there are limits to what can be done once the size of the turbo is selected. It does not take much difference in turbo size to get a car that delivers more power, but with undesireable or "sub optimal" characteristics. So we have a lot of situations where one has an application that is "close" but clearly not the best after it is lived with for awhile. Turbos are good on stock internals with low boost if they are small, in my view.
I'm weighing the pros n cos of both SC (Stillen) and TT {APS}. A shop mentioned that turbos are better for our engine. is that true? not sure if he's just trying to get me to spend more.
#43
05-17-2006 | 12:25 AM
Originally Posted by ttrank
APS hands down if you have the $$. I love my Stillen but the APS kit is awesome.
on the other hand, even high-end vortech set up, with cams and all, tops out at $10k. with turbo, you just get started at $10k.
#44
05-17-2006 | 11:02 AM
Registered User
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 2,381
Likes: 0
From: NY
Originally Posted by codeflux
on the other hand, even high-end vortech set up, with cams and all, tops out at $10k. with turbo, you just get started at $10k.
Only if your option is TT, ST will start you 6k-7k. I got a quote from Performance Motorsports for TN ST for 7K and 9K for JWT TT (Kit+Install+Tune) Well that's a little high for the TN ST since you can't tune that thing (re flash). For a Single Turbo if you have 10K you'll have everything you need with clutch/flywheel/guages... everything to make it safe.
Last edited by FI'ed G; 05-17-2006 at 12:22 PM.
#45
05-17-2006 | 09:18 PM
Originally Posted by codeflux
that's the problem with turbo kits - any configuration i considered would have cost me quite over $10k. in some cases - WELL over $10k. the kits alone are quite a bit more expensive, and labor costs are higher. on top of that, with higher boost, the risk of bad, even bad-ish tune increases, and the chances of blowing your engine do as well...
on the other hand, even high-end vortech set up, with cams and all, tops out at $10k. with turbo, you just get started at $10k.
on the other hand, even high-end vortech set up, with cams and all, tops out at $10k. with turbo, you just get started at $10k.