I'm not into modding my car, but the interesting thing about the Crawford Plenum is that it seems to be more of a "fix" than a mod. The stock plenum was evidently designed more to fit into the space than to do its job ideally, and the Crawford guys noticed that. So they designed a proper part to replace it with, resulting in a substantial performance gain with no downside (side from engine bay cosmetics). I think that's pretty cool.

 

The ECU's baseline right after being reset is the highest level of performance the car will ever provide. From there it goes down and softer at any sign of anything but hammering it. When that happens about 1000 of us on the board reset the ecu to bring it back to baseline which takes about 2-3 weeks where it then gets back to the manufactuer prescribed A/F ratio. To make the most of your mods you can reset the ECU to trick the car into not compensating for the mod since it's mind has been ereased...

2003.5 DP Sedan (Everything but Nav)
Injen CAI
10 Wire HyperGround
Crawford Plenum (V4)
H-Liner
Polk Tweeter Upgrade (EX-3500)
Coming Soon: Lite Crank Pulley, Motion Sensor

 

SixFive,

Why would an engineer design a smart, learning ecu that only gets slower and dumber the more you use it?

Your first sentence would be an interesting fact if it were true. Did a Nissan controls engineer tell you that? Perhaps he would be nice enough to answer my first sentence.



2004 G35C 6MT Black. Sweet.

 

As a Mechanical Design Engineer who works with Software, Systems, Electrical, and Algorithm Design Engineers I have an understanding of how Aerospace products are designed. I believe that the standard principles are the same...

1. All parts are designed NOMINAL, with +/- tolerances. Some parts will be made to the high side of the tolerance range, and some will be made to the low side of the tolerance range. This means that air ducts will vary in diameter, thickness, length, etc... Performance will be impacted slightly by the variations in each part.

2. A software engineer designs an ECU to meet a "Global Standard". It is designed to allow a car to have a Maximum and a Minimum safe operating range. The software guy designs "limits" into the code and it's the cars job to tell the software whether it is within those limits. Typically there is a nominal operating value with tolerance in either direction.

I guess Nissan could have designed the ECU to be different, but what's probably happening is that people are taking it easy on their cars and the reset brings them to nominal. You know, they drive up to the stop light, and idle for 1 minute while the car is teaching the ECU to take it easy, then they floor it and teach the ECU to expect more air flow. It's the law of averages.

I'd be VERY interested in seeing Eagle1 resetting his ECU, doing a dyno run, IMMEDIATELY going to Button Willow or another track and running HARD all day, then doing another dyno run. I bet you the last dyno of the day would be the BEST, as the ECU would have adapted to the higher end of the tolerance range.

Then again, I'm just a dumb engineer so I'll go back to quietly chewing on aluminum. [img]/w3timages/icons/smile.gif[/img]

2004 Infiniti G35C-6MT
LR | Willow | Premium | Aero | Splash | BSM
30% Lumar Tint | Invinca Shield (C-Bra)
Z-Tube | JWT Pop Charger | RT Cats | Crawford Plenum | JIC Y-Pipe (STILL on order)

 

I will stand corrected if i am wrong however the computer DOES granny on you UNLESS you beat the tar out of the car all the time every single day. Believe it or not - like it or not - there's a whole lot of research and dyno runs even on this board (do a search) regarding the ECU and its extremely noticeable gains from reset. The sound alone with a mod or two makes it apparent enough that the sig other notices it and complains a bit. Im a CPA not an engineers so talk all the talk you want but unless you try it you wont really know now will ya? Theory is fun but the results from the real world are where the proof meets the pudding.

2003.5 DP Sedan (Everything but Nav)
Injen CAI
10 Wire HyperGround
Crawford Plenum (V4)
H-Liner
Polk Tweeter Upgrade (EX-3500)
Coming Soon: Lite Crank Pulley, Motion Sensor

 

PS it doesn;t get dumber it just recognizes in its adaptable methods that you aren't flooring it every time and softens things up from there.....ie default setting is highest performance. I think your overeaching a but to leap to "the computer is dumb". The computer does what you tell it but you have to know that it's adaptive to even argue this far. and the adaptiveness IS over time not instentanous.

2003.5 DP Sedan (Everything but Nav)
Injen CAI
10 Wire HyperGround
Crawford Plenum (V4)
H-Liner
Polk Tweeter Upgrade (EX-3500)
Coming Soon: Lite Crank Pulley, Motion Sensor

<P ID="edit"><FONT class="small"><EM>Edited by SixFive on 04/13/04 05:08 AM.</EM></FONT></P>

 

OK you're right.

2004 Infiniti G35C-6MT
LR | Willow | Premium | Aero | Splash | BSM
30% Lumar Tint | Invinca Shield (C-Bra)
Z-Tube | JWT Pop Charger | RT Cats | Crawford Plenum | JIC Y-Pipe (STILL on order)

 

Damn - wish you were my finacee' - lol but she did buy my plenum for me for x-mas.

How is the Y pipe coming - are they backordered and is anyone else making them?

2003.5 DP Sedan (Everything but Nav)
Injen CAI
10 Wire HyperGround
Crawford Plenum (V4)
H-Liner
Polk Tweeter Upgrade (EX-3500)
Coming Soon: Lite Crank Pulley, Motion Sensor

 

The "adaptiveness" refers to shift points. I've never heard of an ECU adapting to driving style by changing A/F or timing.

The MAF detects air and instantly (minutes and/or seconds, not days) adjusts. Do you need to reset your ECU when driving up the mountain to Denver? For the same reason you do not need to reset your ECU when adding a new intake.

The knock sensor detects detonation and adjusts timing, which isn't "adapting" to your driving style either. This is instant as well. If it weren't your engine would be in a heckuva bad way.

At WOT it's moot. Your shift points will be the same no matter how you've been driving her for the last year.

 

The tranny should not granny when WOT shifting - i agree - all other times the tranny softens if you drive it less than WOT. As for the A/F ratio - not sure but this has been debated and the consensus I belive exists (not here i guess) is that yes the AF will change over time to be less aggressive. Many people have reset with no mods and found the missing power..i did it to a loaner the other day and was impressed. It may be that its just the tranny but I have mods so only care about the changes that the ECU makes for those mods to compensate back to stock AF.

The knock sensor is not adaptive as far as I know so no argument from me there - its a different computer for all I know.

If you have a new intake all i can say is do the reset that several of us did a year ago when we went through this then...it will change your mind as it has others...try it!!!!! Really! The sound alone tells the story.

As for denver o have no experience but the car would take some time to adapt - not sure if air flow and oxegen as a % of airflow are the same thing. Perhaps the system recognizes O2 levels in the airflow and adjusts immediately...not sure but if you dont try it you'll always doubt whatever I say.

2003.5 DP Sedan (Everything but Nav)
Injen CAI
10 Wire HyperGround
Crawford Plenum (V4)
H-Liner
Polk Tweeter Upgrade (EX-3500)
Coming Soon: Lite Crank Pulley, Motion Sensor

 

I just doubt what people say when they say it because 500 other people said it. I like to base my opinion on fact and reason that's all. I'll not be ashamed of that. And saying that I'll never believe anything you say, doesn't make what you say any more valid. If you said something with evidence that made sense, or some scientific rationale behind it, I would be 100% behind you.

Fact is, I can reason that the MAF doesn't care whether you reset the ECU or not. Fact is that the only thing that is "driver behavior adaptive" is the transmission shift points. Here's a good link to how the BMW TCU works, and another that gets into a patent by Chrysler. And another how everything works. Note, that most of these computers operate in a timeframe of seconds and minutes. The "adaptive transmission" works over a greater period of time (sometimes) but try not to mix your computers. The A/F does not adapt to your driving style.

The ECU is a different matter. It's job is to make your car run efficiently, it does not, from what I've read in factual publications, "learn" the drivers behaviors. It measures heat, air, electrical discharge and things like that to make sure your engine fires it's spark plug at the right moment, delivers the right amount of fuel to prevent pre-ignition, etc etc.

I think alot of people are confusing "fuel/air/spark delivery" for efficiency, with "car is learning how you drive". One is the job of the ECU, and one is a feature of your modern day tranny.

If you're modifying air intake, the MAF sensor will know quite soon that more air is coming in, therefore it will deliver more fuel so you don't blow a hole in your cylinder.

http://www.unofficialbmw.com/e34/spe...ive_trans.html
http://www.webpatent.com/patents/p5115698.htm
http://auto.howstuffworks.com/car-co....htm/printable

 

-fish,

You're DEAD ON! I almost mentioned what you posted and then was going to state that I have a 6MT, but I decided it would be easier to tell an individual that they are right. Whether or not they are right is obviously irrelavent after several attempts to LOGICALLY explain something. Hey, if someone wants to reset their ECU and "think" that they can drive faster, good for them. I didn't reset my ECU after any mod and I've been able to tell the gains immediately. RT Cats gave significant throttle response immediately. Did the throttle response get much better over time? Not really. I noticed the plenum gave me more torque to the rear wheels due to them spinning quite a bit between the 1-2 shift at redline. Has this gotten any better after 3 days? Not really.

Am I happy with the mods, heck yeah! In the end, that is all that is important. So for all of you G owners who want to reset your ECU, have fun!

There might be some logic for an automatic tranny G to reset the ECU, but with the MM capability, I doubt much would improve. And for the guy who recently dynoed a stock car, then reset the ECU and showed 5 more rwhp, I know that due to inconsistancies in dyno readings and the fact that the car was "more warmed up" had MUCH more to do with the additional 5rwhp and MUCH less to do with the ECU reset.

As always, your mileage may vary.



2004 Infiniti G35C-6MT
LR | Willow | Premium | Aero | Splash | BSM
30% Lumar Tint | Invinca Shield (C-Bra)
Z-Tube | JWT Pop Charger | RT Cats | Crawford Plenum | JIC Y-Pipe (STILL on order)

 

Hey I never reallt cared if you listen to my argument - hell your the engineer - i spoke of results and had a half baked attempt at theory behind it where you'll notice I asked for your clarification if i was wrong...and got stuck with some ego insecurity issues. I want you to correct me if i am wrong but god if I was suicidal I'd have to find a gun already with those repsonses.

I only suggest that you try it - if you need an empircal study or an engineer to explain it i am not your guy. But I notice the people who doubt this the most never tried it. Hey if im wrong I'll admit it - you've proven nill as well other than what a bmw ecu does..so now please tell me why my car makes all the rumble after a reset?

Are you willing to test you own prowess and try it? I have so my credibility is no less than a naysayers. The ECU does somthing upon reset that makes the car react much differently and I would actually appreciate you trying it so you can enlighten many of us seeking the reasons behind it. You seem like your up for the task if you can just get over the hump and try it.

2003.5 DP Sedan (Everything but Nav)
Injen CAI
10 Wire HyperGround
Crawford Plenum (V4)
H-Liner
Polk Tweeter Upgrade (EX-3500)
Coming Soon: Lite Crank Pulley, Motion Sensor

 

None of us are saying you're wrong. None of us said we are right.

I'm with you man, if it works that's reason enough.

Engineers like to know why though, and I haven't heard any good explanation yet.

And the explanations I've read bother me for reasons stated above.

Fact (is or should be) the ecu for engine control management should not adapt over time. It should give best performance within milliseconds of a changing environment.


2004 G35C 6MT Black. Sweet.

 

The guy from TechnoSquare who designed the ecu reflash was selling it from the beginning as a way to stop the adaptiveness. The numbers I've heard are 17-20 hp and guys at the track in FM platforms of any kind were recording significantly better times right after reset.

I just find it hard to believe that engineers cant accept the notion of adaptive fuel mapping and wouldn't test thier own assertions by giving it a shot. I guess it's better to be right than have the power you paid for...

2003.5 DP Sedan (Everything but Nav)
Injen CAI
10 Wire HyperGround
Crawford Plenum (V4)
H-Liner
Polk Tweeter Upgrade (EX-3500)
Coming Soon: Lite Crank Pulley, Motion Sensor