I know the recommended grade of fuel for the G35 is "premium" (92/93 octane)... but with gas prices likely to hit record highs this spring/summer, has anyone had any problems running "mid" octane (89/90) in a 2005 6MT Coupe?? or for that matter, regular ??

FYI, my car is about a month old and after two complete tank fills (Shell premium) and 70/30 city/highway driving, the average MPG so far is 18.5

 

I believe the owner's manual says "nothing but premium" because of the way the engine is designed. You may be able to temporarily get away with lower octane but in the end you'll end up paying more for engine repair than if you'd just stayed with the good old higher octane stuff.

 

I can't speak for the 05's but the 04 manual says:

 

you have a new car you do NOT want to go lower octane.. unless you want your car to communicate with you through a friendly knocking tone comming fron the engine bay =)

basically no, learn to drive like a grandma, downshift like you should.. keep your windows up to reduce drag and your a/c off to save power.. starting your car also takes gas too.. and let your car warm up.. and ehh.. the only electrical equipment you are allowed to operate on your car is your head light and blinkers.. and remember.. each time you push the brake your loosing $

speed = gas
gas = money
brake = -speed
therefore brake = -money

 

Using 86/87 as the base price, 89 (in my neck of the woods) is $.10 more, 91/92 $.20 more. With the 20 gallon tank on this car, that is either a $2.00 - $4.00 savings. Let's say you use a tank a week, or perhaps 2. Cut out a spendy lunch per week or brown bag it an extra day per week. Or you could always get that little fan I see on the infomercial, you know the one that goes in the airbox, you could try that

 

I agree with the above posts. You just bought a 35K+ sports coupe with a mfr recommendation of premium gasoline. You have to figure the cost of the gas, insurance, potential speeding tickets, etc. into the overall cost of the car before you make your purchase.
While I don't have specific experience with using inferior grade gas on the Infiniti, I have seen first hand how Benzes and BMWs > model year2000 respond to <91 octane gas. With the BMWs you have a very real drop off of performance and the MBs very nearly shut down on you, even with 1/2 a tank of the 89.
Don't cheap out on the gas.

 

i'll stick to the recommendations, but from personal experience with an '03 Audi A4 which was to run on ONLY premium fuel, using midgrade gasoline (for more than two years) caused no perceptible change in engine behavior, performance or efficiency...

maybe there are engineers in the forum who could comment but i've read editorials (trying to dig up reference) remarking how today's sophisticated engine management computers are able to "adapt" or "compensate" for changes is fuel grade (and not just half a tank's worth)...

again, having said this, the $10-15 per month is not something to lose sleep over... i was just curious to know if anyone had used lower grade fuel and how they found their car reacted...

 

Another option is to half fill with 89 and half with 93 to make a 91 mix. This should save you a few pennies, although not a ton. You should be able to run the G with lower grade, although the ECU will retard the ignition timing to avoid knock, which will rob a bit of power. If you decide to do it, just listen carefully to your engine and if you detect any knock, fill up with premium as soon as possible.

Here's an interesting article on the topic that actually does some dyno and track testing to compare regular and premium on several modern cars, including the M3:

http://www.baileycar.com/gasoline_html.html

 

I've had my car for a year and half now (approaching 17K miles), and have been filling the tank with 93 since day one. My questions pertains more to differences in gas consumption when different grades are used (i.e. 93 vs. 91).

Can anyone answer this? has anyone here tracked his/her gas consumption when using 91 vs. 93?

- Thanks.

 

Save an average of $250 a year if you switch from 91 octane (super/supreme) to 89 octane (mid).

$35,000+ car deserves what it needs. Paying $250 in 91 octane is a small price to pay to keep the engine in top shape.

 

Gasoline varies by the hour of production and refinery [however 100,000 gallons do get mixed at tank farms]......

Note the 96 Research index in manual........that is the trick most refineries use more to make up for the lower MOTOR OCTANE index .........the Motor Index number is critical at 2000 rpm not the Research number.

Why you can buy 93 octane that pings badly and rarely 89 that doesn't.......the trick of the AVERAGING the two tests that saves refineries a penny a gallon. Millons per year.

 

I have a 05 Sedan Auto the owners manual say you can use 87 octane but for improved performance use the higher octane. If you have the 6 speed or coupe use the higher octane.

 

Here is a great article that anyone wondering about tuning or octane ratings should read. It was written by the designor of the Northstar engine and originally published in Contact! magazine.

Engine Basics: Detonation and Pre-Ignition

by Allen W. Cline


Introduction

All high output engines are prone to destructive tendencies as a result of over boost, misfueling, mis-tuning and inadequate cooling. The engine community pushes ever nearer to the limits of power output. As they often learn cylinder chamber combustion processes can quickly gravitate to engine failure. This article defines two types of engine failures, detonation and pre-ignition, that are as insidious in nature to users as they are hard to recognize and detect. This discussion is intended only as a primer about these combustion processes since whole books have been devoted to the subject.

First, let us review normal combustion. It is the burning of a fuel and air mixture charge in the combustion chamber. It should burn in a steady, even fashion across the chamber, originating at the spark plug and progressing across the chamber in a three dimensional fashion. Similar to a pebble in a glass smooth pond with the ripples spreading out, the flame front should progress in an orderly fashion. The burn moves all the way across the chamber and, quenches (cools) against the walls and the piston crown. The burn should be complete with no remaining fuel-air mixture. Note that the mixture does not "explode" but burns in an orderly fashion.

There is another factor that engineers look for to quantify combustion. It is called "location of peak pressure (LPP)." It is measured by an in-cylinder pressure transducer. Ideally, the LPP should occur at 14 degrees after top dead center. Depending on the chamber design and the burn rate, if one would initiate the spark at its optimum timing (20 degrees BTDC, for example) the burn would progress through the chamber and reach LPP, or peak pressure at 14 degrees after top dead center. LPP is a mechanical factor just as an engine is a mechanical device. The piston can only go up and down so fast. If you peak the pressure too soon or too late in the cycle, you won't have optimum work. Therefore, LPP is always 14 degrees ATDC for any engine.
I introduce LPP now to illustrate the idea that there is a characteristic pressure buildup (compression and combustion) and decay (piston downward movement and exhaust valve opening) during the combustion process that can be considered "normal" if it is smooth, controlled and its peak occurs at 14 degrees ATDC.

Our enlarged definition of normal combustion now says that the charge/bum is initiated with the spark plug, a nice even burn moves across the chamber, combustion is completed and peak pressure occurs at at 14 ATDC.

Confusion and a lot of questions exist as to detonation and pre-ignition. Sometimes you hear mistaken terms like "pre-detonation". Detonation is one phenomenon that is abnormal combustion. Pre-ignition is another phenomenon that is abnormal combustion. The two, as we will talk about, are somewhat related but are two distinctly different phenomenon and can induce distinctly different failure modes.


Key Definitions

Detonation
Detonation is the spontaneous combustion of the end-gas (remaining fuel/air mixture) in the chamber. It always occurs after normal combustion is initiated by the spark plug. The initial combustion at the spark plug is followed by a normal combustion burn. For some reason, likely heat and pressure, the end gas in the chamber spontaneously combusts. The key point here is that detonation occurs after you have initiated the normal combustion with the spark plug.
Pre-ignition
Pre-ignition is defined as the ignition of the mixture prior to the spark plug firing. Anytime something causes the mixture in the chamber to ignite prior to the spark plug event it is classified as pre-ignition. The two are completely different and abnormal phenomenon.

Continued on next post...

 

...
Detonation

Unburned end gas, under increasing pressure and heat (from the normal progressive burning process and hot combustion chamber metals) spontaneously combusts, ignited solely by the intense heat and pressure. The remaining fuel in the end gas simply lacks sufficient octane rating to withstand this combination of heat and pressure.

Detonation causes a very high, very sharp pressure spike in the combustion chamber but it is of a very short duration. If you look at a pressure trace of the combustion chamber process, you would see the normal burn as a normal pressure rise, then all of a sudden you would see a very sharp spike when the detonation occurred. That spike always occurs after the spark plug fires. The sharp spike in pressure creates a force in the combustion chamber. It causes the structure of the engine to ring, or resonate, much as if it were hit by a hammer. Resonance, which is characteristic of combustion detonation, occurs at about 6400 Hertz. So the pinging you hear is actually the structure of the engine reacting to the pressure spikes. This noise of detonation is commonly called spark knock. This noise changes only slightly between iron and aluminum. This noise or vibration is what a knock sensor picks up. The knock sensors are tuned to 6400 hertz and they will pick up that spark knock. Incidentally, the knocking or pinging sound is not the result of "two flame fronts meeting" as is often stated. Although this clash does generate a spike the noise you sense comes from the vibration of the engine structure reacting to the pressure spike.

One thing to understand is that detonation is not necessarily destructive. Many engines run under light levels of detonation, even moderate levels. Some engines can sustain very long periods of heavy detonation without incurring any damage. If you've driven a car that has a lot of spark advance on the freeway, you'll hear it pinging. It can run that way for thousands and thousands of miles. Detonation is not necessarily destructive. It's not an optimum situation but it is not a guaranteed instant failure. The higher the specific output (HP/in3) of the engine, the greater the sensitivity to detonation. An engine that is making 0.5 HP/in3 or less can sustain moderate levels of detonation without any damage; but an engine that is making 1.5 HP/in3, if it detonates, it will probably be damaged fairly quickly, here I mean within minutes.

Detonation causes three types of failure:
1. Mechanical damage (broken ring lands)
2. Abrasion (pitting of the piston crown)
3. Overheating (scuffed piston skirts due to excess heat input or high coolant temperatures)

The high impact nature of the spike can cause fractures; it can break the spark plug electrodes, the porcelain around the plug, cause a clean fracture of the ring land and can actually cause fracture of valves-intake or exhaust. The piston ring land, either top or second depending on the piston design, is susceptible to fracture type failures. If I were to look at a piston with a second broken ring land, my immediate suspicion would be detonation.

Another thing detonation can cause is a sandblasted appearance to the top of the piston. The piston near the perimeter will typically have that kind of look if detonation occurs. It is a swiss-cheesy look on a microscopic basis. The detonation, the mechanical pounding, actually mechanically erodes or fatigues material out of the piston. You can typically expect to see that sanded look in the part of the chamber most distant from the spark plug, because if you think about it, you would ignite the flame front at the plug, it would travel across the chamber before it got to the farthest reaches of the chamber where the end gas spontaneously combusted. That's where you will see the effects of the detonation; you might see it at the hottest part of the chamber in some engines, possibly by the exhaust valves. In that case the end gas was heated to detonation by the residual heat in the valve.


In a four valve engine with a pent roof chamber with a spark plug in the center, the chamber is fairly uniform in distance around the spark plug. But one may still may see detonation by the exhaust valves because that area is usually the hottest part of the chamber. Where the end gas is going to be hottest is where the damage, if any, will occur.

Because this pressure spike is very severe and of very short duration, it can actually shock the boundary layer of gas that surrounds the piston. Combustion temperatures exceed 1800 degrees. If you subjected an aluminum piston to that temperature, it would just melt. The reason it doesn't melt is because of thermal inertia and because there is a boundary layer of a few molecules thick next to the piston top. This thin layer isolates the flame and causes it to be quenched as the flame approaches this relatively cold material. That combination of actions normally protects the piston and chamber from absorbing that much heat. However, under extreme conditions the shock wave from the detonation spike can cause that boundary layer to breakdown which then lets a lot of heat transfer into those surfaces.

Engines that are detonating will tend to overheat, because the boundary layer of gas gets interrupted against the cylinder head and heat gets transferred from the combustion chamber into the cylinder head and into the coolant. So it starts to overheat. The more it overheats, the hotter the engine, the hotter the end gas, the more it wants to detonate, the more it wants to overheat. It's a snowball effect. That's why an overheating engine wants to detonate and that's why engine detonation tends to cause overheating.

Many times you will see a piston that is scuffed at the "four corners". If you look at the bottom side of a piston you see the piston pin boss. If you look across each pin boss, it's solid aluminum with no flexibility. It expands directly into the cylinder wall. However, the skirt of a piston is relatively flexible. If it gets hot, it can deflect. The crown of the piston is actually slightly smaller in diameter on purpose so it doesn't contact the cylinder walls. So if the piston soaks up a lot of heat, because of detonation for instance, the piston expands and drives the piston structure into the cylinder wall causing it to scuff in four places directly across each boss. It's another dead give-a-way sign of detonation. Many times detonation damage is just limited to this.

Some engines, such as liquid cooled 2-stroke engines found in snowmobiles, watercraft and motorcycles, have a very common detonation failure mode. What typically happens is that when detonation occurs the piston expands excessively, scuffs in the bore along those four spots and wipes material into the ring grooves. The rings seize so that they can't conform to the cylinder walls. Engine compression is lost and the engine either stops running, or you start getting blow-by past the rings. That torches out an area. Then the engine quits.

In the shop someone looks at the melted result and says, "pre-ignition damage". No, it's detonation damage. Detonation caused the piston to scuff and this snowballed into loss of compression and hot gas escaping by the rings that caused the melting. Once again, detonation is a source of confusion and it is very difficult, sometimes, to pin down what happened, but in terms of damage caused by detonation, this is another typical sign.

While some of these examples may seem rather tedious I mention them because a "scuffed piston" is often blamed on other factors and detonation as the problem is overlooked. A scuffed piston may be an indicator of a much more serious problem which may manifest itself the next time with more serious results.

In the same vein, an engine running at full throttle may be happy due to a rich WOT air/fuel ratio. Throttling back to part throttle the mixture may be leaner and detonation may now occur. Bingo, the piston overheats and scuffs, the engine fails but the postmortem doesn't consider detonation because the failure didn't happen at WOT.

I want to reinforce the fact that the detonation pressure spike is very brief and that it occurs after the spark plug normally fires. In most cases that will be well after ATDC, when the piston is moving down. You have high pressure in the chamber anyway with the burn. The pressure is pushing the piston like it's supposed to, and superimposed on that you get a brief spike that rings the engine.

Continued on next post...

 

...
Causes

Detonation is influenced by chamber design (shape, size, geometry, plug location), compression ratio, engine timing, mixture temperature, cylinder pressure and fuel octane rating. Too much spark advance ignites the burn too soon so that it increases the pressure too greatly and the end gas spontaneously combusts. Backing off the spark timing will stop the detonation. The octane rating of the fuel is really nothing magic. Octane is the ability to resist detonation. It is determined empirically in a special running test engine where you run the fuel, determine the compression ratio that it detonates at and compare that to a standard fuel, That's the octane rating of the fuel. A fuel can have a variety of additives or have higher octane quality. For instance, alcohol as fuel has a much better octane rating just because it cools the mixture significantly due to the extra amount of liquid being used. If the fuel you got was of a lower octane rating than that demanded by the engine's compression ratio and spark advance detonation could result and cause the types of failures previously discussed.

Production engines are optimized for the type or grade of fuel that the marketplace desires or offers. Engine designers use the term called MBT (Minimum spark for Best Torque) for efficiency and maximum power; it is desirable to operate at MBT at all times. For example, let's pick a specific engine operating point, 4000 RPM, WOT, 98 kPa MAP. At that operating point with the engine on the dynamometer and using non-knocking fuel, we adjust the spark advance. There is going to be a point where the power is the greatest. Less spark than that, the power falls off, more spark advance than that, you don't get any additional power.

Now our engine was initially designed for premium fuel and was calibrated for 20 degrees of spark advance. Suppose we put regular fuel in the engine and it spark knocks at 20 degrees? We back off the timing down to 10 degrees to get the detonation to stop. It doesn't detonate any more, but with 10 degrees of spark retard, the engine is not optimized anymore. The engine now suffers about a 5-6 percent loss in torque output. That's an unacceptable situation. To optimize for regular fuel engine designers will lower the compression ratio to allow an increase in the spark advance to MBT. The result, typically, is only a 1-2 percent torque loss by lowering the compression. This is a better trade-off. Engine test data determines how much compression an engine can have and run at the optimum spark advance.

For emphasis, the design compression ratio is adjusted to maximize efficiency/power on the available fuel. Many times in the aftermarket the opposite occurs. A compression ratio is "picked" and the end user tries to find good enough fuel and/or retards the spark to live with the situation...or suffers engine damage due to detonation.

Another thing you can do is increase the burn rate of the combustion chamber. That is why with modem engines you hear about fast burn chambers or quick burn chambers. The goal is the faster you can make the chamber burn, the more tolerant to detonation it is. It is a very simple phenomenon, the faster it burns, the quicker the burn is completed, the less time the end gas has to detonate. If it can't sit there and soak up heat and have the pressure act upon it, it can't detonate.

If, however, you have a chamber design that burns very slowly, like a mid-60s engine, you need to advance the spark and fire at 38 degrees BTDC. Because the optimum 14 degrees after top dead center (LPP) hasn't changed the chamber has far more opportunity to detonate as it is being acted upon by heat and pressure. If we have a fast burn chamber, with 15 degrees of spark advance, we've reduced our window for detonation to occur considerably. It's a mechanical phenomenon. That's one of the goals of having a fast burn chamber because it is resistant to detonation.

There are other advantages too, because the faster the chamber burns, the less spark advance you need. The less time pistons have to act against the pressure build up, the air pump becomes more efficient. Pumping losses are minimized. In other words, as the piston moves towards top dead center compression of the fuel/air mixture increases. If you light the fire at 38 degrees before top dead center, the piston acts against that pressure for 38 degrees. If you light the spark 20 degrees before top dead center, it's only acting against it for 20. The engine becomes more mechanically efficient.

There are a lot of reasons for fast burn chambers but one nice thing about them is that they become more resistant to detonation. A real world example is the Northstar engine from 1999 to 2000. The 1999 engine was a 10.3:1 compression ratio. It was a premium fuel engine. For the 2000 model year, we revised the combustion chamber, achieved faster burn. We designed it to operate on regular fuel and we only had to lower the compression ratio .3 to only 10:1 to make it work. Normally, on a given engine (if you didn't change the combustion chamber design) to go from premium to regular fuel, it will typically drop one point in compression ratio: With our example, you would expect a Northstar engine at 10.3:1 compression ratio, dropped down to 9.3:1 in order to work on regular. Because of the faster burn chamber, we only had to drop to 10:1. The 10:1 compression ratio still has very high compression with attendant high mechanical efficiency and yet we can operate it at optimum spark advance on regular fuel. That is one example of spark advance in terms of technology. A lot of that was achieved through computational fluid dynamics analysis of the combustion chamber to improve the swirl and tumble and the mixture motion in the chamber to enhance the burn rate.


Chamber Design

One of the characteristic chambers that people are familiar with is the Chrysler Hemi. The engine had a chamber that was like a half of a baseball. Hemispherical in nature and in nomenclature, too. The two valves were on either side of the chamber with the spark plug at the very top. The charge burned downward across the chamber. That approach worked fairly well in passenger car engines but racing versions of the Hemi had problems. Because the chamber was so big and the bores were so large, the chamber volume also was large; it was difficult to get the compression ratio high. Racers put a dome on the piston to increase the compression ratio. If you were to take that solution to the extreme and had a 13:1 or 14:1 compression ratio in the engine pistons had a very tall dome. The piston dome almost mimicked the shape of the head's combustion chamber with the piston at top dead center. One could call the remaining volume "the skin of the orange." When ignited the charge burned very slowly, like the ripples in a pond,, covering the distance to the block cylinder wall. Thus, those engines, as a result of the chamber design, required a tremendous amount of spark advance, about 40-45 degrees. With that much spark advance detonation was a serious possibility if not fed high octane fuel. Hemis tended to be very sensitive to tuning. As often happened, one would keep advancing the spark, get more power and all of a sudden the engine would detonate, Because they were high output engines, turning at high RPM, things would happen suddenly.

Hemi racing engines would typically knock the ring land off, get blow by, torch the piston and fall apart. No one then understood why. We now know that the Hemi design is at the worst end of the spectrum for a combustion chamber. A nice compact chamber is best; that's why the four valve pent roof style chambers are so popular. The flatter the chamber, the smaller the closed volume of the chamber, the less dome you need in the piston. We can get inherently high compression ratios with a flat top piston with a very nice bum pattern right in the combustion chamber, with very short distances, with very good mixture motion - a very efficient chamber.

Look at a Northstar or most of the 4 valve type engines - all with flat top pistons, very compact combustion chambers, very narrow valve angles and there is no need for a dome that impedes the burn to raise the compression ratio to 10:1.

Continued on next post...