Supercharge or Turbocharge?
#1
05-11-2005 | 09:20 PM
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Supercharge or Turbocharge?
Which would be best for a G35? I am looking to buy either the S/c or T/c and i just dont know which one to get =\. I havent really found which one is most taxing on the engine, even though i know they are both hard on it. I need some extra info, ive been researchin the heck out of it heh. Im looking for overall power, not just quick start.
#2
05-11-2005 | 09:30 PM
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From: Miami 305
#3
05-11-2005 | 09:35 PM
I would go with Vortech Intercooled Super Charger. I'm at 391 at the rear wheels on the stock setting and still get 22 miles to the gallon.
What else can I say.
See here ------> www.jdmv35.com
What else can I say.
See here ------> www.jdmv35.com
#4
05-11-2005 | 09:38 PM
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#5
05-11-2005 | 10:10 PM
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From: So.Cal
Depends on how or when you need that power. IF your planing on circuit or tracking your G, go SC because of the Linear power through-out. IF you want pure power for straight-away drag, turbo is better due to higher hp and torque from low to mid range. Also now you can get a ST ( turbonetics ST or APS ST ) for about same price as a SC kit. Stillen stage2 is the only Carb.cert FI kit at this time. Not tune-able, safe and reliable, but only in the low 300rwhp. Turbonetics ST, JWT TT will not work with 5AT, at this time. If you decide SC, go Vortech....IMO. If you want Turbo, APS/SFR/Turbonetics/Greddy, take your pick. Just be prepared to spend alot of dinero!! . ... my .02 cents.
#6
05-11-2005 | 10:56 PM
#7
05-11-2005 | 11:44 PM
a.k.a. RANDYS_G
Joined: Feb 2004
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From: Glen Rose, Texas
Originally Posted by JDM V35
I would go with Vortech Intercooled Super Charger. I'm at 391 at the rear wheels on the stock setting and still get 22 miles to the gallon.
What else can I say.
See here ------> www.jdmv35.com
What else can I say.
See here ------> www.jdmv35.com
Which to choose to all relative. Do you have enough $$$ to build the motor first, if so, I'd day Twin Turbo with an APS TT...however, if you want to stay with the stock internals and do nothing more than gain 190 hp (at the crank), then I'd say, Vortech SC intercooled with the stock 8lbs pulley and a good tuner.
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#9
05-12-2005 | 12:31 AM
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From: SOCAL
Originally Posted by GXCLUSIV
Depends on how or when you need that power. IF your planing on circuit or tracking your G, go SC because of the Linear power through-out.
If your concern is about lag, then fret not. Again, as long as the turbo selection was good, this should be a non-issue. The transistion from no-throttle to full throttle in a road course is rarely instant. The only time this might occur is if you need to back off because of traffic. Otherwise, you'll go from no-throttle(which should only occur during braking), to part throttle (as you are turning), then rolling into full throttle (as you exit the turn). As long as the turbo is decently matched, the throttle modulation will not be difficult.
Also consider that road racing introduces issues of long term heat. Positive displacement blowers generally have large amounts of parasitic loss relative to the power made. This means the engine is working harder and producing additional heat. Heat can be a major issue on any track as the cooling system needs to be able to keep up. Too much of a rise in engine temp can simply overheat the motor and/or promote detonation. Given the VQ's high compression and the fact you are adding boost, any undesirable heat can be a recipe for disaster.
Intercooling also presents a set of problems. For best results, all systems should be intercooled. Where the turbo has an advantage here is that the turbo only boosts under load. Superchargers are always "spooled". This is of particular importance when you consider an intercooler is not only a heat exhanger, but also a heat sink. Even with large FMIC's, most cars will heat an intercooler under acceleration faster than it can dissapate the heat. The good news is as long as the car is moving it is dissapating heat since air will be flowing through it. Where the turbo has an advantage here is that when the turbos are not spooled, the intake air will not be heated from compression. The effect that occurs here is that the air still travelling through the intake into the motor under 0 to part throttle will have a lower temperature than the intercooler. Since heat transfers to anything that is cooler, the intercooler will actually be cooled from the inside as well as the outside. A supercharger is always compressing the air, so it's always heating the air. With a proper bypass valve it should cool to some extent, but you will have lost at least the efficiency of the compression in the charger and the decompression cycle in the intake tract. You might argue that an intercooler that is not heatsoaking wil be fine either way, it is common to see intercoolers in front of the radiator. Lower intercooler temps also equate to cooler air getting to the radiator as well.
Despite my rants, to say turbos are always better would be wrong though. It is important to say that a poorly chosen turbo can add a significant amount of parasitic loss and heat and actually perform worse than a supercharger. But if you compared the most optimal turbo system and the most optimal S/C, the turbo will come out on top for reasons that are more than just how much power you can make. It's also likely that a reasonably well chosen turbo will outperform most S/C set-ups. About the only thing I might be able to say about a supercharger is it's simplicity. Turbos obviously see more heat and changes in heat. The manifold, turbine and wastegate can see drastic heat levels and varying heat levels in different parts of the system. This can affect reliability and lend itself to failures, good engineering and forethought should keep this to a minimum. For an SC, you essentially just need good pulley alignment(relative to the other pulleys) and a mount that can hold up to the belt tension and S/C weight.
Having tracked a turbo car many times it's not difficult to drive. I've also driven 450 RWHP worth of Supra for a while and while I didn't track it(wasn't my car), it's power delivery was smooth enough to use on a track. The boost threshold was relatively high, but occurred well before the powerband you would need so unless you tried to pull out of a turn in too high a gear, a drastic change in the rate of acceleration wasn't something you needed to worry about. Other than getting used to the car itself, I found it to be quite comfortable to power on when exiting corners and freeway onramps.
#11
05-12-2005 | 12:34 AM
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From: Woodland Hills (818 L.A.) Killa Kali...
Originally Posted by CKwik
Why? You seem to implicate that a turbos power is non-linear. To some extent, this may be true, but only before you hit the boost threshold(RPM where peak boost is first obtained). If you choose a turbo that is a decent match, you'll find that the power between the boost threshold and redline will be quite linear. There is no need to be driving below the boost threshold(unless you have a poorly matched turbo or you suck at driving), so there should be no reason to worry about this portion of the powerband. If you want to get more technical, you should also understand that there are 2 types of S/C's which will affect what the torque curve actually looks like. While a positive displacement blower will have a flatter curve, a centrifugal supercharger will have a curve that tends to rise more with RPM. You can call it linear if you which, but a broader curve will yield more linear acceleration. Ultimately, the car with the most area under the curve willl accelerate the fastest overall. That being said, a well matched turbo will have a broad, relatively flat torque curve in the range or RPM's you will be driving in. With less parasitic loss and generally higher efficiencies, the turbo will yield more torque overall for a given boost.
If your concern is about lag, then fret not. Again, as long as the turbo selection was good, this should be a non-issue. The transistion from no-throttle to full throttle in a road course is rarely instant. The only time this might occur is if you need to back off because of traffic. Otherwise, you'll go from no-throttle(which should only occur during braking), to part throttle (as you are turning), then rolling into full throttle (as you exit the turn). As long as the turbo is decently matched, the throttle modulation will not be difficult.
Also consider that road racing introduces issues of long term heat. Positive displacement blowers generally have large amounts of parasitic loss relative to the power made. This means the engine is working harder and producing additional heat. Heat can be a major issue on any track as the cooling system needs to be able to keep up. Too much of a rise in engine temp can simply overheat the motor and/or promote detonation. Given the VQ's high compression and the fact you are adding boost, any undesirable heat can be a recipe for disaster.
Intercooling also presents a set of problems. For best results, all systems should be intercooled. Where the turbo has an advantage here is that the turbo only boosts under load. Superchargers are always "spooled". This is of particular importance when you consider an intercooler is not only a heat exhanger, but also a heat sink. Even with large FMIC's, most cars will heat an intercooler under acceleration faster than it can dissapate the heat. The good news is as long as the car is moving it is dissapating heat since air will be flowing through it. Where the turbo has an advantage here is that when the turbos are not spooled, the intake air will not be heated from compression. The effect that occurs here is that the air still travelling through the intake into the motor under 0 to part throttle will have a lower temperature than the intercooler. Since heat transfers to anything that is cooler, the intercooler will actually be cooled from the inside as well as the outside. A supercharger is always compressing the air, so it's always heating the air. With a proper bypass valve it should cool to some extent, but you will have lost at least the efficiency of the compression in the charger and the decompression cycle in the intake tract. You might argue that an intercooler that is not heatsoaking wil be fine either way, it is common to see intercoolers in front of the radiator. Lower intercooler temps also equate to cooler air getting to the radiator as well.
Despite my rants, to say turbos are always better would be wrong though. It is important to say that a poorly chosen turbo can add a significant amount of parasitic loss and heat and actually perform worse than a supercharger. But if you compared the most optimal turbo system and the most optimal S/C, the turbo will come out on top for reasons that are more than just how much power you can make. It's also likely that a reasonably well chosen turbo will outperform most S/C set-ups. About the only thing I might be able to say about a supercharger is it's simplicity. Turbos obviously see more heat and changes in heat. The manifold, turbine and wastegate can see drastic heat levels and varying heat levels in different parts of the system. This can affect reliability and lend itself to failures, good engineering and forethought should keep this to a minimum. For an SC, you essentially just need good pulley alignment(relative to the other pulleys) and a mount that can hold up to the belt tension and S/C weight.
Having tracked a turbo car many times it's not difficult to drive. I've also driven 450 RWHP worth of Supra for a while and while I didn't track it(wasn't my car), it's power delivery was smooth enough to use on a track. The boost threshold was relatively high, but occurred well before the powerband you would need so unless you tried to pull out of a turn in too high a gear, a drastic change in the rate of acceleration wasn't something you needed to worry about. Other than getting used to the car itself, I found it to be quite comfortable to power on when exiting corners and freeway onramps.
If your concern is about lag, then fret not. Again, as long as the turbo selection was good, this should be a non-issue. The transistion from no-throttle to full throttle in a road course is rarely instant. The only time this might occur is if you need to back off because of traffic. Otherwise, you'll go from no-throttle(which should only occur during braking), to part throttle (as you are turning), then rolling into full throttle (as you exit the turn). As long as the turbo is decently matched, the throttle modulation will not be difficult.
Also consider that road racing introduces issues of long term heat. Positive displacement blowers generally have large amounts of parasitic loss relative to the power made. This means the engine is working harder and producing additional heat. Heat can be a major issue on any track as the cooling system needs to be able to keep up. Too much of a rise in engine temp can simply overheat the motor and/or promote detonation. Given the VQ's high compression and the fact you are adding boost, any undesirable heat can be a recipe for disaster.
Intercooling also presents a set of problems. For best results, all systems should be intercooled. Where the turbo has an advantage here is that the turbo only boosts under load. Superchargers are always "spooled". This is of particular importance when you consider an intercooler is not only a heat exhanger, but also a heat sink. Even with large FMIC's, most cars will heat an intercooler under acceleration faster than it can dissapate the heat. The good news is as long as the car is moving it is dissapating heat since air will be flowing through it. Where the turbo has an advantage here is that when the turbos are not spooled, the intake air will not be heated from compression. The effect that occurs here is that the air still travelling through the intake into the motor under 0 to part throttle will have a lower temperature than the intercooler. Since heat transfers to anything that is cooler, the intercooler will actually be cooled from the inside as well as the outside. A supercharger is always compressing the air, so it's always heating the air. With a proper bypass valve it should cool to some extent, but you will have lost at least the efficiency of the compression in the charger and the decompression cycle in the intake tract. You might argue that an intercooler that is not heatsoaking wil be fine either way, it is common to see intercoolers in front of the radiator. Lower intercooler temps also equate to cooler air getting to the radiator as well.
Despite my rants, to say turbos are always better would be wrong though. It is important to say that a poorly chosen turbo can add a significant amount of parasitic loss and heat and actually perform worse than a supercharger. But if you compared the most optimal turbo system and the most optimal S/C, the turbo will come out on top for reasons that are more than just how much power you can make. It's also likely that a reasonably well chosen turbo will outperform most S/C set-ups. About the only thing I might be able to say about a supercharger is it's simplicity. Turbos obviously see more heat and changes in heat. The manifold, turbine and wastegate can see drastic heat levels and varying heat levels in different parts of the system. This can affect reliability and lend itself to failures, good engineering and forethought should keep this to a minimum. For an SC, you essentially just need good pulley alignment(relative to the other pulleys) and a mount that can hold up to the belt tension and S/C weight.
Having tracked a turbo car many times it's not difficult to drive. I've also driven 450 RWHP worth of Supra for a while and while I didn't track it(wasn't my car), it's power delivery was smooth enough to use on a track. The boost threshold was relatively high, but occurred well before the powerband you would need so unless you tried to pull out of a turn in too high a gear, a drastic change in the rate of acceleration wasn't something you needed to worry about. Other than getting used to the car itself, I found it to be quite comfortable to power on when exiting corners and freeway onramps.
Suuuuuuuuuuuuuure...
#12
05-12-2005 | 12:54 AM
