Studio on Wheels - Sound Impressions
#76
11-18-2006, 08:30 AM
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Just a little background... I played drums back in the 80's for several touring heavy metal bands and later ran sound for dozens of rock and some country bands for about 15 years. In other words, I listened to live music about 3-4 nights a week for about 15 years. Hundreds of bands, thousands of live performances. I know what a kick drum sounds like and I know what it feels like and I can tell you this, the system in the G35 does not accurately reproduce live sound.
Let me tell you something about studio soundmen (recording engineers). These guys mix via a couple of "reference" monitors. Special speakers with a flat response. You won't find a "sub" in the recording booth at very many recording studios and the speakers they mix with are incapable of reproducing the true sound of a kick drum, or an explosion, or any other low frequency sound because they simply can't move the quantity of air required to reproduce the feel (the "thump").
"Studio" recording engineers usually suck at running live sound. 1st they put in their ear plugs, and then it goes downhill from there
Likewise, live soundmen usually don't do a very good job in a recording studio. They try and mix the music the way you would like to listen to it.
Problem is, if they burn it on CD like that, you'll throw it in your car and turn the bass and treble to the max and it will not sound right. The bass will be boomy and the high end will be shrill.
So yes, from a recording engineers viewpoint, the new "studio on wheels"
sounds great. It sounds like what they are used to hearing from their reference monitors back in the recording studio.
Problem is, most people are not recording engineers. The average Joe dosen't want a "studio on wheels", he want's a "PA system on wheels".
If they had just hired a few live soundmen to help design this system they would have listened to it and said "needs more bottom end" and they would have turned up the output to the sub so that dead center would equal the current max bass and the new max bass would have some thump.
The recording engineers would have recoiled in horror and then turned the bass all the way down and complained that they now could not turn it down enough.
Since neither side would be able to agree, they would finally have settled on a bass boost button and everyone would have been happy.
Just a little background... I played drums back in the 80's for several touring heavy metal bands and later ran sound for dozens of rock and some country bands for about 15 years. In other words, I listened to live music about 3-4 nights a week for about 15 years. Hundreds of bands, thousands of live performances. I know what a kick drum sounds like and I know what it feels like and I can tell you this, the system in the G35 does not accurately reproduce live sound.
Let me tell you something about studio soundmen (recording engineers). These guys mix via a couple of "reference" monitors. Special speakers with a flat response. You won't find a "sub" in the recording booth at very many recording studios and the speakers they mix with are incapable of reproducing the true sound of a kick drum, or an explosion, or any other low frequency sound because they simply can't move the quantity of air required to reproduce the feel (the "thump").
"Studio" recording engineers usually suck at running live sound. 1st they put in their ear plugs, and then it goes downhill from there
Likewise, live soundmen usually don't do a very good job in a recording studio. They try and mix the music the way you would like to listen to it.
Problem is, if they burn it on CD like that, you'll throw it in your car and turn the bass and treble to the max and it will not sound right. The bass will be boomy and the high end will be shrill.
So yes, from a recording engineers viewpoint, the new "studio on wheels"
sounds great. It sounds like what they are used to hearing from their reference monitors back in the recording studio.
Problem is, most people are not recording engineers. The average Joe dosen't want a "studio on wheels", he want's a "PA system on wheels".
If they had just hired a few live soundmen to help design this system they would have listened to it and said "needs more bottom end" and they would have turned up the output to the sub so that dead center would equal the current max bass and the new max bass would have some thump.
The recording engineers would have recoiled in horror and then turned the bass all the way down and complained that they now could not turn it down enough.
Since neither side would be able to agree, they would finally have settled on a bass boost button and everyone would have been happy.
Last edited by Railgunner; 11-18-2006 at 05:45 PM.
#77
11-18-2006, 03:15 PM
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#78
11-18-2006, 04:04 PM
Originally Posted by canuck
I for one am really excited to here the SOW and am sure it won't dissappoint my ears.
Btw, here is an intersting excerpt from the link posted above by JMZ.
"For '08, we have it worked out so that when you're driving solo (or feeling selfish), you can flick a switch and center the image for the driver. The left speaker moves virtually to about 4' outside the left door. Now that's impressive."
Btw, here is an intersting excerpt from the link posted above by JMZ.
"For '08, we have it worked out so that when you're driving solo (or feeling selfish), you can flick a switch and center the image for the driver. The left speaker moves virtually to about 4' outside the left door. Now that's impressive."
I for one like the sound of this unit that some comment has less bass than the last unit. Hopefully it's less boomy and overboosted with a more natural sound than the current Bose.
Funny how I can relate to John Feng's comment about getting into rental cars and the bass & treble are both on full. It's been true for me with car rentals, dealer loaners and even sometimes getting my car back from service. It sounds terrible and I have no idea why someone would judge that as sounding good.
#79
11-18-2006, 05:25 PM
Originally Posted by RBull
I'm sure you'll be happy Shane since most "ears" that have commented cite a big improvement. Sorry to say I didn't listen to the sow during my drive.
I for one like the sound of this unit that some comment has less bass than the last unit. Hopefully it's less boomy and overboosted with a more natural sound than the current Bose.
Funny how I can relate to John Feng's comment about getting into rental cars and the bass & treble are both on full. It's been true for me with car rentals, dealer loaners and even sometimes getting my car back from service. It sounds terrible and I have no idea why someone would judge that as sounding good.
I for one like the sound of this unit that some comment has less bass than the last unit. Hopefully it's less boomy and overboosted with a more natural sound than the current Bose.
Funny how I can relate to John Feng's comment about getting into rental cars and the bass & treble are both on full. It's been true for me with car rentals, dealer loaners and even sometimes getting my car back from service. It sounds terrible and I have no idea why someone would judge that as sounding good.
Maybe Infiniti should add some pyrotechnics to the system.
#80
11-18-2006, 06:24 PM
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Before I got my car I read on here that people were really not happy with the sound in the G, and that's a huge deal for me. So I paid alot of attention before buying it, and have since been really focusing alot on the sounds system, trying to judge it. And in all honesty I absolutely love it. It's not perfect; I do wish I had the option of a little more bass and a tiny bit more volume, but i would use that extra tiny bit like 0.01% of the time. At maximum volume, it's really loud, but there is zero distortion of the music.. it's a really well put-together system.
#81
11-19-2006, 12:09 AM
#82
11-19-2006, 01:36 AM
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Originally Posted by wavelengths
I'm dying to hear mine on Friday. I'm used to a Harmon/Kardon system which is just wild, so we'll see if it cuts it for trance (probably one of the craziest ranges that you can get consistent and ridiculous highs and lows simultaneously).
#83
11-19-2006, 02:22 AM
Name some cars that have real deep thumping bass. I'm willing to bet that most of them are marketed towards a younger crowd.
Indeed. I'm gonna be looking into "hearing improvement" technology as well.
I can't see how a thumping sub or ear-splitting trebles equates to a good sound system. If you were a luxury car designer and had to come up with a good sound system, which would you lean towards: sound quality and clarity or sound pressure?
Originally Posted by gwhiz35
Judging by the comments here about lack of bass and treble and how little distortion there is a max volume, I will be calling my broker on Monday and buying all of the hearing aid stocks that I can afford.
Gonna be a LOT of deaf people in 20 years.
Gonna be a LOT of deaf people in 20 years.
I can't see how a thumping sub or ear-splitting trebles equates to a good sound system. If you were a luxury car designer and had to come up with a good sound system, which would you lean towards: sound quality and clarity or sound pressure?
Last edited by Mr_Ryte; 11-19-2006 at 02:25 AM.
#84
11-19-2006, 04:27 AM
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Originally Posted by feng
That's a very good point.
Some folks like accurate frequency response, and for others, anything less than a +10dB bass boost doesn't feel right. There are no lack of young adults walking around that have hugely elevated thresholds, and who need smiley faced frequency responses to be able to perceive "flat" frequency response.
9 out of 10 times when I get into the rental car, the treble and bass are turned all the way up. This is still the case when I rent Jags and other lux. cars which DO have branded premium audio systems. That simply tells me the expectation/preference of many young people is not for accurate audio.
I've met plenty of self-anointed experts who couldn't tell me where the various string instruments are supposed to be in the sound stage of a standard orchestral recording. . Some of the cars that are held in high regard by some of you self-professed experts have sound stages that squishes most of the band to one corner of the car, or hugely boosted treble (for a false sense of clarity at low volume settings) or deeply scooped out lower midrange (for false sense of midbass cleaniness). My point is, the internet has made it possible for anyone to claim expertise in anything, and then support it via shear posting volume. But that's nonsense, because what this really is ... is just people expressing their personal preference for what is sometimes very inaccurate reproduction of audio. Yes, it absolutely means you should not take my preferences any more seriously than those of anyone else (like Rlampke, who is too afraid to even say who he really is ... surely the one hallmark of an expert).
As has been stated before (and pissed on by most of you guys), this system was tuned references consisting of: live music and stereo system that only the most tin-ear'd audiophiles would consider anything but reference class. It has been judged very successful in this goal by a range of top recording engineers, musicians, and high-end audio reviewers.
If you don't prefer that kind of sound, then clearly this is not the system for you. But, you can't say it is or isn't an accurate system until you have a valid reference to judge by (hear the band live, record them and mix a faithful stereo recording, use this as a reference).
John Feng
Some folks like accurate frequency response, and for others, anything less than a +10dB bass boost doesn't feel right. There are no lack of young adults walking around that have hugely elevated thresholds, and who need smiley faced frequency responses to be able to perceive "flat" frequency response.
9 out of 10 times when I get into the rental car, the treble and bass are turned all the way up. This is still the case when I rent Jags and other lux. cars which DO have branded premium audio systems. That simply tells me the expectation/preference of many young people is not for accurate audio.
I've met plenty of self-anointed experts who couldn't tell me where the various string instruments are supposed to be in the sound stage of a standard orchestral recording. . Some of the cars that are held in high regard by some of you self-professed experts have sound stages that squishes most of the band to one corner of the car, or hugely boosted treble (for a false sense of clarity at low volume settings) or deeply scooped out lower midrange (for false sense of midbass cleaniness). My point is, the internet has made it possible for anyone to claim expertise in anything, and then support it via shear posting volume. But that's nonsense, because what this really is ... is just people expressing their personal preference for what is sometimes very inaccurate reproduction of audio. Yes, it absolutely means you should not take my preferences any more seriously than those of anyone else (like Rlampke, who is too afraid to even say who he really is ... surely the one hallmark of an expert).
As has been stated before (and pissed on by most of you guys), this system was tuned references consisting of: live music and stereo system that only the most tin-ear'd audiophiles would consider anything but reference class. It has been judged very successful in this goal by a range of top recording engineers, musicians, and high-end audio reviewers.
If you don't prefer that kind of sound, then clearly this is not the system for you. But, you can't say it is or isn't an accurate system until you have a valid reference to judge by (hear the band live, record them and mix a faithful stereo recording, use this as a reference).
John Feng
#85
11-19-2006, 04:58 AM
Originally Posted by ABQ_G35
Deane, I agree, way too much bass is annoying, and as far as "live" sound, I don't know why one would want to recreate that in their car anyway. Maybe Infiniti should add some pyrotechnics to the system.
Maybe Infiniti should add some pyrotechnics to the system.
#86
11-19-2006, 10:35 AM
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I'm no expert but agree, I also prefer a neutral sound and hate the overboosted bass of the 03 - 06 systems. Also agree with Hypnoz that surround sound ruins the soundstage imaging. Best soundstage imaging is obtained from 2 channel stereo and all else being equal best sound stage imaging comes from vinyl sources not CD.
#87
11-19-2006, 10:14 PM
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#88
11-19-2006, 10:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Railgunner
Flat is fine, but most people don't want their music "flat". That's fine, just turn up the bass and treble. The system in the G35 has enough mid range to cut your head off but it simply cannot be adjusted to produce the "fat" (as opposed to "flat") bottom end that most people like. I want "thump" and this system not only has no "thump", it can't be adjusted to "thump". The 07 G35with bass on max is about equivalent to the the Bose system in my 03 G with the bass adjusted dead center.
I give the new Bose system in the 07 G35 a 4.5 out of 10 score.
I rate the Bose system in my 03 G35 around a 6.5 out of 10 score.
Are the midrange and highs on the 07 G35 clearer than my 03 G35? Yes.
Is the bottom end tighter and less muddy than my 03 G35? Yes.
Does that make up for the lack of any adjustment to get a level of bass
that most people like? No.
To sum it up, I love the way the 07 G35 drives but the sound system
sucks.
I've let several people I work with ride in my car since I got it. Both of them said the same thing about the sound. "turn up the bass". Both were surprized when I said, I can't, it's all the way up. Their response "oh... I thought you said it was going to have a good stereo".
Sadly, that's what 90% of people that hear the sound system in the new G
will say and because of that, a year from now, the publics perception of the new G will be "drives great, but the sound system sucks".
I give the new Bose system in the 07 G35 a 4.5 out of 10 score.
I rate the Bose system in my 03 G35 around a 6.5 out of 10 score.
Are the midrange and highs on the 07 G35 clearer than my 03 G35? Yes.
Is the bottom end tighter and less muddy than my 03 G35? Yes.
Does that make up for the lack of any adjustment to get a level of bass
that most people like? No.
To sum it up, I love the way the 07 G35 drives but the sound system
sucks.
I've let several people I work with ride in my car since I got it. Both of them said the same thing about the sound. "turn up the bass". Both were surprized when I said, I can't, it's all the way up. Their response "oh... I thought you said it was going to have a good stereo".
Sadly, that's what 90% of people that hear the sound system in the new G
will say and because of that, a year from now, the publics perception of the new G will be "drives great, but the sound system sucks".
^bass = good sound system?
#90
11-20-2006, 11:10 AM
Originally Posted by feng
That's a very good point.
Some folks like accurate frequency response, and for others, anything less than a +10dB bass boost doesn't feel right. There are no lack of young adults walking around that have hugely elevated thresholds, and who need smiley faced frequency responses to be able to perceive "flat" frequency response.
Some folks like accurate frequency response, and for others, anything less than a +10dB bass boost doesn't feel right. There are no lack of young adults walking around that have hugely elevated thresholds, and who need smiley faced frequency responses to be able to perceive "flat" frequency response.
Originally Posted by feng
9 out of 10 times when I get into the rental car, the treble and bass are turned all the way up. This is still the case when I rent Jags and other lux. cars which DO have branded premium audio systems. That simply tells me the expectation/preference of many young people is not for accurate audio.
Originally Posted by feng
I've met plenty of self-anointed experts who couldn't tell me where the various string instruments are supposed to be in the sound stage of a standard orchestral recording. . Some of the cars that are held in high regard by some of you self-professed experts have sound stages that squishes most of the band to one corner of the car, or hugely boosted treble (for a false sense of clarity at low volume settings) or deeply scooped out lower midrange (for false sense of midbass cleaniness). My point is, the internet has made it possible for anyone to claim expertise in anything, and then support it via shear posting volume. But that's nonsense, because what this really is ... is just people expressing their personal preference for what is sometimes very inaccurate reproduction of audio. Yes, it absolutely means you should not take my preferences any more seriously than those of anyone else (like Rlampke, who is too afraid to even say who he really is ... surely the one hallmark of an expert).
As has been stated before (and pissed on by most of you guys), this system was tuned references consisting of: live music and stereo system that only the most tin-ear'd audiophiles would consider anything but reference class. It has been judged very successful in this goal by a range of top recording engineers, musicians, and high-end audio reviewers.
If you don't prefer that kind of sound, then clearly this is not the system for you. But, you can't say it is or isn't an accurate system until you have a valid reference to judge by (hear the band live, record them and mix a faithful stereo recording, use this as a reference).
John Feng
As has been stated before (and pissed on by most of you guys), this system was tuned references consisting of: live music and stereo system that only the most tin-ear'd audiophiles would consider anything but reference class. It has been judged very successful in this goal by a range of top recording engineers, musicians, and high-end audio reviewers.
If you don't prefer that kind of sound, then clearly this is not the system for you. But, you can't say it is or isn't an accurate system until you have a valid reference to judge by (hear the band live, record them and mix a faithful stereo recording, use this as a reference).
John Feng
The mark of an “expert” is someone who conducts so-called technical presentations/discussion on a site like G35Driver.com…? I’ve certainly never seen any other professional in my profession, starting technical discussions on unrelated public sites - or any public site for that matter. In furtherance, not only have you’ve identified yourself on this site, but you also identified who you work for and at the same time, made absurd claims about what you think you know – all w/out any sort of disclaimer or shred-of-proof. Nevertheless, since you have offered no disclaimer at any time, and have identified yourself as “…an engineer w/Bose” – this means that your views/comments on G35Driver.com are shared and indorsed by Bose – a very unprofessional and potentially damaging move. Hmmm, now’s there’s a mark of an expert.
Perhaps I’ll start posting your PM’s to me about who you really are – your comments about Infiniti vehicles and you’re thoughts about the current Bose system in the G. I’m sure Bose would also be interested in these conversations from you that are being posted here, on their behalf as well.
You of all people should know better, especially since you [claim] to be an EE. Your discussions here and how you have presented yourself – no doubt to try to impress others – is very unprofessional and no where near the behavior of what I, and other professionals would consider an “expert”.
You are right about one thing – you really did step in ****…
Last edited by RLampke; 11-20-2006 at 11:58 AM.