rwd vs.awd
#16
09-08-2008, 10:17 PM
Originally Posted by veejayy
What a great forum. First time on and I get outstanding answers. You G guys know your cars and the engineering behind them.
This is exactly what I was looking for. My sum of your comments leads me much stronger to the rwd. I live in Philly but with good snow tires- I mean KILLER snows- I will make it. My commute is to S Jersey which is very flat, the only hills are ramps so I think x for me is overkill. Granted if I went to the Poconos or drove to Pgh. but I can always rent a car for those infrequent occaisions.
Come to think of it I have had two fX 45 over the last 5 years and 99% of the time the awd was unnecessary.
Thanks again!
This is exactly what I was looking for. My sum of your comments leads me much stronger to the rwd. I live in Philly but with good snow tires- I mean KILLER snows- I will make it. My commute is to S Jersey which is very flat, the only hills are ramps so I think x for me is overkill. Granted if I went to the Poconos or drove to Pgh. but I can always rent a car for those infrequent occaisions.
Come to think of it I have had two fX 45 over the last 5 years and 99% of the time the awd was unnecessary.
Thanks again!
If you have only driven AWD SUV's and have never driven a powerful rear drive car at the limits, please don't try any of the stuff I described on public roads. Get some experience on a track. Attend a racing school.
What sounds simple and fun in theory can get you killed or trash your shiny new car in practice.
#17
09-08-2008, 10:20 PM
#18
09-08-2008, 10:23 PM
#20
09-08-2008, 10:47 PM
#21
09-08-2008, 10:49 PM
Originally Posted by C6Zhombre
ya, no kidding. last time i checked, i got a fun handle 
#22
09-08-2008, 11:03 PM
Originally Posted by SpudRacer
OK Infiniti is redeemed. LOL we only looked at a G35X automatic. I didn't even peek in the window of a MT car. Still, I wonder why they bothered with two different designs. Seems like it would have been easier and cheaper to stick a fun handle in all of em. The footbrake is a little well.....domestic.
Fun handles for everyone!
#23
09-08-2008, 11:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Maui5150
As someone who lives in a snowy area, and has a steep hill in front of my house that ices up, RWD vehicles are just impractical.
#24
09-08-2008, 11:30 PM
#25
09-09-2008, 01:59 AM
If you look at the 2nd last comment after that article in thetruthaboutcars.com, you'll see my comments, which I still stick to:
"I completely disagree with this review. I extensively test drove both the G35S and the G35X before deciding on the X, and the steering felt almost identical, while the power difference was minimal (this was in an ‘07 - there has been some ECU reprogramming for ‘08, which might have changed the feel of the car a little). Read this review from C&D for example:
http://www.caranddriver.com/shortroa...-g35x-awd.html
The difference between the two is minimal in performance despite the 150lb weight difference, and of all the sports sedan manufacturers out there, Nissan/Infiniti does pretty much the best job of making their AWD car feel like a RWD most of the time with their ATTESA all wheel drive system, with the least amount of penalty. In the Car and Driver test, I’ll quote:
“But the G35X recorded an identical number on the skidpad, where we measure maximum grip - 0.87g- even though the AWD car is equipped with Goodyear Eagle RS-A all season tires, and the manual model wore Bridgestone Potenza performance rubber”
My experience tends to correlate with that. Perhaps the ’08’s programming made the difference, but it could have also just been a bad apple or something.
As for comparisons to the BMW, well, I traded an ‘06 330i for my G35x because of service related issues with the BMW. I haven’t driven a 335i, or 335xi, but no matter how superlative their engine is, when the performance difference is so small, it’s just not worth an extra $12k for a fully loaded 335xi over a fully loaded G35x (less loaded makes this difference smaller of course), and this is especially true considering how ugly the 3 series interior is when you get the additional iDrive hump.
Regards,
t1328
"
"I completely disagree with this review. I extensively test drove both the G35S and the G35X before deciding on the X, and the steering felt almost identical, while the power difference was minimal (this was in an ‘07 - there has been some ECU reprogramming for ‘08, which might have changed the feel of the car a little). Read this review from C&D for example:
http://www.caranddriver.com/shortroa...-g35x-awd.html
The difference between the two is minimal in performance despite the 150lb weight difference, and of all the sports sedan manufacturers out there, Nissan/Infiniti does pretty much the best job of making their AWD car feel like a RWD most of the time with their ATTESA all wheel drive system, with the least amount of penalty. In the Car and Driver test, I’ll quote:
“But the G35X recorded an identical number on the skidpad, where we measure maximum grip - 0.87g- even though the AWD car is equipped with Goodyear Eagle RS-A all season tires, and the manual model wore Bridgestone Potenza performance rubber”
My experience tends to correlate with that. Perhaps the ’08’s programming made the difference, but it could have also just been a bad apple or something.
As for comparisons to the BMW, well, I traded an ‘06 330i for my G35x because of service related issues with the BMW. I haven’t driven a 335i, or 335xi, but no matter how superlative their engine is, when the performance difference is so small, it’s just not worth an extra $12k for a fully loaded 335xi over a fully loaded G35x (less loaded makes this difference smaller of course), and this is especially true considering how ugly the 3 series interior is when you get the additional iDrive hump.
Regards,
t1328
"
#26
09-09-2008, 02:38 AM
Originally Posted by SpudRacer
Here's another opinion for what it's worth.
The drive system shouldn't have any impact on steering feel or feeling connected to the road. Those things are a combination of the steering rack, suspension geometry, and chassis design. Since both G cars are identical (I think) in these regards, they should feel identical.
However there is a huge difference between RWD & AWD. If you're asking this question and coming from an AWD SUV, I'm guessing you've never tried steering with your right foot. This "feature" of RWD allows a car to rotate and turn much more sharply than an AWD counterpart. I'll try not to get too technical.
I drive an S2000 every day. One of the reasons I love the car is that I have three ways to guide the car through a turn.
1.) Turn the wheels. An AWD car can do this.
2.) Set a line and then lift on the throttle to induce trailing throttle oversteer when the weight transfers to the outside front tire. An AWD car can do this too.
3.) Set a line and then hammer the throttle to induce oversteer while controlling the rotation of the car by balancing throttle and counter steering. An AWD car makes it much much harder to do this. Unless you're a professional rally driver I'm gonna say forget it.
This effect is magnified in the S2000 by a low polar moment of inertia due to a mid-engine design that centers the mass of the car between the front and rear axles very close to the ground. There's very little resistance to torsional forces. The sucker will rotate like a top. It will also bite a novice in the a$$ before you know what hit you. This is what some people call a twitchy car. I call it a fun car.
A very rare thing in a sedan, the G35 is also a mid-engine design of sorts. Infiniti calls it a Front-Midship design. The engine is located behind the front axle for a relatively low polar moment of inertia as far as sedans go. This makes for a nicely twitchy/fun sedan. All you need to go with that is enough power to overcome the traction of the rear tires and a reasonably quick steering gear to keep things under control. Check and check. Sports sedan!
Now when you go adding AWD to the damned thing, you spoil everything. All that inherent design goodness is wasted as the car's traction brain panics when the rear starts to lose grip and sends all of your precious torque forward where the wheels aren't slipping. Drat! Polar moment wasted!
Result? You will track effortlessly and smoothly through the turn without drama. But will you be faster? Turn sharper? Not necessarily. In the hands of a skilled driver, a RWD car can brake deeper into a sharp corner and rotate faster with more control. But it takes work. And it is more risky.
Unless you drive on the edge, I'm not certain you'd notice the difference on public roads in daily driving. But, on a track, at the edge, I'll take RWD thank you.
Hope that helps.
The drive system shouldn't have any impact on steering feel or feeling connected to the road. Those things are a combination of the steering rack, suspension geometry, and chassis design. Since both G cars are identical (I think) in these regards, they should feel identical.
However there is a huge difference between RWD & AWD. If you're asking this question and coming from an AWD SUV, I'm guessing you've never tried steering with your right foot. This "feature" of RWD allows a car to rotate and turn much more sharply than an AWD counterpart. I'll try not to get too technical.
I drive an S2000 every day. One of the reasons I love the car is that I have three ways to guide the car through a turn.
1.) Turn the wheels. An AWD car can do this.
2.) Set a line and then lift on the throttle to induce trailing throttle oversteer when the weight transfers to the outside front tire. An AWD car can do this too.
3.) Set a line and then hammer the throttle to induce oversteer while controlling the rotation of the car by balancing throttle and counter steering. An AWD car makes it much much harder to do this. Unless you're a professional rally driver I'm gonna say forget it.
This effect is magnified in the S2000 by a low polar moment of inertia due to a mid-engine design that centers the mass of the car between the front and rear axles very close to the ground. There's very little resistance to torsional forces. The sucker will rotate like a top. It will also bite a novice in the a$$ before you know what hit you. This is what some people call a twitchy car. I call it a fun car.
A very rare thing in a sedan, the G35 is also a mid-engine design of sorts. Infiniti calls it a Front-Midship design. The engine is located behind the front axle for a relatively low polar moment of inertia as far as sedans go. This makes for a nicely twitchy/fun sedan. All you need to go with that is enough power to overcome the traction of the rear tires and a reasonably quick steering gear to keep things under control. Check and check. Sports sedan!
Now when you go adding AWD to the damned thing, you spoil everything. All that inherent design goodness is wasted as the car's traction brain panics when the rear starts to lose grip and sends all of your precious torque forward where the wheels aren't slipping. Drat! Polar moment wasted!
Result? You will track effortlessly and smoothly through the turn without drama. But will you be faster? Turn sharper? Not necessarily. In the hands of a skilled driver, a RWD car can brake deeper into a sharp corner and rotate faster with more control. But it takes work. And it is more risky.
Unless you drive on the edge, I'm not certain you'd notice the difference on public roads in daily driving. But, on a track, at the edge, I'll take RWD thank you.
Hope that helps.
The differences aren't that big. Since it is based on RWD. Also all these only good on totally dried road. If we talking about a little wet road/snow/ice. Well you got the point. We still have fun even when take the kid in school in the AWD do you in the RWD?
We all see those posts every winter. "G35 sucks in snow", " I just damaged my car", "Can't leave my driveway",etc.
tg
#27
09-09-2008, 06:54 AM
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Originally Posted by TakeFlight
Same here. I live in the Philly suburbs and while I can't say we get a ton of snow, we usually get enough to cause problems when you live in a hilly area with a RWD car. I had a 2003 G35 for 6 years and just traded it in for a 2008 G35x. I've lived in my house for 5 of those 6 years driving that 2003 G35. While I managed to get by, there were multiple times where I got stuck going up hills trying to get into my neighborhood. I would have to back up and try going a different way. Unfortunately, there is no way to get into my neighborhood without going up a steep hill. And then I also have a steep driveway. So, on those snowy days most of the time I wasn't able to park my car in my garage because I couldn't get up the driveway. I will admit that I never did try snow tires on my old G (just all season performance at one point and all season touring at another point). But I'm really glad to have AWD now. There was no question I was getting AWD this time around due to the past 5 years. I like RWD, but it's just not practical for where I live.
Takeflight- yeah I hear you. You must live somewhere west of Philly because once you cross 30th st. eastbound (all the way to the shore) it is flat, flat, flat. It is amazing to me that you made it even with the summer tires!! I know that if I lived let's say on Conshohoken State Road I might be thinking twice about rwd. You admit that you did not have snows but I will use them so I think it will make up some of the difference. Plus I live near Front street and commute east. Thanks for your comments though.
#28
09-09-2008, 07:04 AM
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Originally Posted by t1328
If you look at the 2nd last comment after that article in thetruthaboutcars.com, you'll see my comments, which I still stick to:
"I completely disagree with this review. I extensively test drove both the G35S and the G35X before deciding on the X, and the steering felt almost identical, while the power difference was minimal (this was in an ‘07 - there has been some ECU reprogramming for ‘08, which might have changed the feel of the car a little). Read this review from C&D for example:
http://www.caranddriver.com/shortroa...-g35x-awd.html
The difference between the two is minimal in performance despite the 150lb weight difference, and of all the sports sedan manufacturers out there, Nissan/Infiniti does pretty much the best job of making their AWD car feel like a RWD most of the time with their ATTESA all wheel drive system, with the least amount of penalty. In the Car and Driver test, I’ll quote:
“But the G35X recorded an identical number on the skidpad, where we measure maximum grip - 0.87g- even though the AWD car is equipped with Goodyear Eagle RS-A all season tires, and the manual model wore Bridgestone Potenza performance rubber”
My experience tends to correlate with that. Perhaps the ’08’s programming made the difference, but it could have also just been a bad apple or something.
As for comparisons to the BMW, well, I traded an ‘06 330i for my G35x because of service related issues with the BMW. I haven’t driven a 335i, or 335xi, but no matter how superlative their engine is, when the performance difference is so small, it’s just not worth an extra $12k for a fully loaded 335xi over a fully loaded G35x (less loaded makes this difference smaller of course), and this is especially true considering how ugly the 3 series interior is when you get the additional iDrive hump.
Regards,
t1328
"
"I completely disagree with this review. I extensively test drove both the G35S and the G35X before deciding on the X, and the steering felt almost identical, while the power difference was minimal (this was in an ‘07 - there has been some ECU reprogramming for ‘08, which might have changed the feel of the car a little). Read this review from C&D for example:
http://www.caranddriver.com/shortroa...-g35x-awd.html
The difference between the two is minimal in performance despite the 150lb weight difference, and of all the sports sedan manufacturers out there, Nissan/Infiniti does pretty much the best job of making their AWD car feel like a RWD most of the time with their ATTESA all wheel drive system, with the least amount of penalty. In the Car and Driver test, I’ll quote:
“But the G35X recorded an identical number on the skidpad, where we measure maximum grip - 0.87g- even though the AWD car is equipped with Goodyear Eagle RS-A all season tires, and the manual model wore Bridgestone Potenza performance rubber”
My experience tends to correlate with that. Perhaps the ’08’s programming made the difference, but it could have also just been a bad apple or something.
As for comparisons to the BMW, well, I traded an ‘06 330i for my G35x because of service related issues with the BMW. I haven’t driven a 335i, or 335xi, but no matter how superlative their engine is, when the performance difference is so small, it’s just not worth an extra $12k for a fully loaded 335xi over a fully loaded G35x (less loaded makes this difference smaller of course), and this is especially true considering how ugly the 3 series interior is when you get the additional iDrive hump.
Regards,
t1328
"
#29
09-09-2008, 09:29 AM
Originally Posted by tg1234
The differences aren't that big. Since it is based on RWD. Also all these only good on totally dried road. If we talking about a little wet road/snow/ice. Well you got the point. We still have fun even when take the kid in school in the AWD do you in the RWD?
We all see those posts every winter. "G35 sucks in snow", " I just damaged my car", "Can't leave my driveway",etc.
tg
We all see those posts every winter. "G35 sucks in snow", " I just damaged my car", "Can't leave my driveway",etc.
tg
It was only a matter of time before someone threw that out. News flash.....your AWD does absolutely nothing to help you stop or turn (unless you're also accelerating). So yes, I enjoy RWD all year round in any weather.I've been racing in motorsports since the mid-eighties (damn I'm old). In the early nineties, I used to race on New Hampshire lake ice in the winter.....with cars. Yep, people do it. I'll even bet that I can clean your clock on the way to school in the snow in a RWD G35.
Why? Not because of superior skills. Because every car I own (except the Vette) has two sets of wheels and tires. Performance rubber for spring, summer, & fall. Dedicated winter tires (mostly Blizzaks) for ice and snow. The tires make a huge difference in stopping, turning, and acceleration. And I know how to use them too.
I'd be willing to wager that 95% of all the "RWD sucks in snow" threads are scribed by ******** who try to drive on summer tires at low temps on snow and ice. They do this either because they can't afford the proper equipment or because they are too dumb to know the difference or too lazy to swap tires twice a year. Or maybe they live in weather transition zones that make it borderline sensible. Body shops love these people. Insurance companies hate them.
Most recently, I daily drove a 400HP 6 Spd RWD 2005 GTO through two PA winters. I used to have fun blowing by Ford Explorers at intersections or watching them try and follow me through a turn. Priceless!!! The rubes were universally confident that their vaunted AWD would make them all powerful. And they were relying on nothing more than "stomp n go" driving skills. Meanwhile, they were invariably driving on half bald all season OEM tires that were marginal in winter when they were new.
What do you have on your AWD uber machine in winter when you pull up to the school?
Sorry, you'll have to do better than that.
Also, the fact that you can say.....
Originally Posted by tg1234
The differences aren't that big. Since it is based on RWD.
Last edited by SpudRacer; 09-09-2008 at 09:40 AM.
#30
09-09-2008, 09:31 AM
Even with front wheel drive, conditions in the North East can still be difficult without snow tires, especially on icy hills. I am picking up my X tomorrow, and still will probably throw snows on, if anything just to have a set of beat rims because of all the salt, pot holes and curbs, etc.