Official Golden Gate G35 Dyno Day Results
#16
08-17-2004, 11:47 AM
Re: Official Golden Gate G35 Dyno Day Results
4DrSkyline: Thanks for clearing that up. So Modacar did have the weather station and for my dyno runs I was at SAE Correction Factor 5, whatever that means. So the whole weather thing can be put aside theoretically as far as a variable. As far as the engine being warmed up and all I think I was pretty much at that sweet spot too. Since I was second to run my car had only been turned off for about 30 mins or so. Warm enough but not heat soaked either.
04' G35S 6MT Ivory Pearl, Willow, Premium
Z-Tube / NFC Y-Pipe / Custom Mid-Pipe / 350 EVO Rear Sway/ '03 350Z Shocks and Springs
04' G35S 6MT Ivory Pearl, Willow, Premium
Z-Tube / NFC Y-Pipe / Custom Mid-Pipe / 350 EVO Rear Sway/ '03 350Z Shocks and Springs
#17
08-17-2004, 12:57 PM
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Re: Official Golden Gate G35 Dyno Day Results
Vinh-
Thanks for putting this meet together. This was my first time seeing a dyno and it was well worth the quick visit. Too bad everyone showed, I would have loved to do a run.
Nice to meet everyone else that I had a chance to talk to as well!
I was the guy who was there only for a short while...
2003.5 6MT Silver G35 Sedan
Injen CAI, Crawford Plenum, Stillen Exhaust
Hotchkis Sway Bars, GroundingGear
Thanks for putting this meet together. This was my first time seeing a dyno and it was well worth the quick visit. Too bad everyone showed, I would have loved to do a run.
Nice to meet everyone else that I had a chance to talk to as well!
I was the guy who was there only for a short while...
2003.5 6MT Silver G35 Sedan
Injen CAI, Crawford Plenum, Stillen Exhaust
Hotchkis Sway Bars, GroundingGear
#18
08-17-2004, 02:08 PM
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Re: Official Golden Gate G35 Dyno Day Results
Thanks all for the enlightening info. Some more comments:
I wasn't aware that the 224x had an automatic weather station correction. However, given that, I'm suspicious that everyone ran with SAE correction map 5, regardless of time of day and ambient temp. It seems curious that the morning runs were significantly better than afternoon runs. Again, look at the results from identical cars 1st run at 9:00am vs. afternoon. Also, we should hope, for that sake of all 350Z owners, that ambient temp. is a factor. The bottom line is there is probably at least 2-3% error in the dyno itself (plus there's still a manual component, potential source of error). ALL that said, a couple of things appear to be less disputable:
1) The VQ motors are closer than Nissan would have us believe (in 350Z, coupe, sedan), as has been stated before many times.
2) It does appear that intake systems are probably not responsible for significant power gains, at least on the dyno.
3) For sedans, it does appear that a good Y-pipe (or X-pipe) and resonator combo. make a noticeable difference.
Many kudo's to dklau33 on this last point. I suspect that he may have the optimal setup, not as loud as a full cat-back, but power gains that are just as good. If we could only get somebody to produce those custom Magnaflow mid-pipes... Anyway, I don't think anyone should be surprised that the muffler part of any cat-back is basically irrelevant (stock is just fine). It appears that cat-back gains really are in the y-pipe and resonator. To be fair though, dklau33's custom setup would not be cheap (nor easy) for lazy people like me. Correct me if I'm wrong but here's my analysis of this:
a) Good y-pipe, about $400 (ok maybe $370 with a group buy), but lets use "I wanna buy it now" pricing.
b) 22" stainless Magnaflow, about $150 as best I can tell.
c) Used coupe (or sedan) mid-section to be cut and welded. $150? Note: One important criteria for me personally is to keep my stock system, which I'll put back on if anything major ever requires a warrantee repair!
d) Labor to cut, re-weld, fit and install $200?
It appears we'd be at close to $900 for this setup anyway, for those of us who can't do our own welding. Again, MAJOR kudos to Darren for paving this path, and showing us the "right way" (IMHO). I'd even consider selling my Stillen and going that route, IF somebody out there would produce a "ready to bolt-on" kit. I think $600 would be a reasonable asking price for the combo. Guess I'd better post those sound numbers (sorry Vinh for not sending them, e-mail was down last couple of days)...
2004.5 G35 Sedan | Garnet Fire + Willow | 6MT | Z-Tube
I wasn't aware that the 224x had an automatic weather station correction. However, given that, I'm suspicious that everyone ran with SAE correction map 5, regardless of time of day and ambient temp. It seems curious that the morning runs were significantly better than afternoon runs. Again, look at the results from identical cars 1st run at 9:00am vs. afternoon. Also, we should hope, for that sake of all 350Z owners, that ambient temp. is a factor. The bottom line is there is probably at least 2-3% error in the dyno itself (plus there's still a manual component, potential source of error). ALL that said, a couple of things appear to be less disputable:
1) The VQ motors are closer than Nissan would have us believe (in 350Z, coupe, sedan), as has been stated before many times.
2) It does appear that intake systems are probably not responsible for significant power gains, at least on the dyno.
3) For sedans, it does appear that a good Y-pipe (or X-pipe) and resonator combo. make a noticeable difference.
Many kudo's to dklau33 on this last point. I suspect that he may have the optimal setup, not as loud as a full cat-back, but power gains that are just as good. If we could only get somebody to produce those custom Magnaflow mid-pipes... Anyway, I don't think anyone should be surprised that the muffler part of any cat-back is basically irrelevant (stock is just fine). It appears that cat-back gains really are in the y-pipe and resonator. To be fair though, dklau33's custom setup would not be cheap (nor easy) for lazy people like me. Correct me if I'm wrong but here's my analysis of this:
a) Good y-pipe, about $400 (ok maybe $370 with a group buy), but lets use "I wanna buy it now" pricing.
b) 22" stainless Magnaflow, about $150 as best I can tell.
c) Used coupe (or sedan) mid-section to be cut and welded. $150? Note: One important criteria for me personally is to keep my stock system, which I'll put back on if anything major ever requires a warrantee repair!
d) Labor to cut, re-weld, fit and install $200?
It appears we'd be at close to $900 for this setup anyway, for those of us who can't do our own welding. Again, MAJOR kudos to Darren for paving this path, and showing us the "right way" (IMHO). I'd even consider selling my Stillen and going that route, IF somebody out there would produce a "ready to bolt-on" kit. I think $600 would be a reasonable asking price for the combo. Guess I'd better post those sound numbers (sorry Vinh for not sending them, e-mail was down last couple of days)...
2004.5 G35 Sedan | Garnet Fire + Willow | 6MT | Z-Tube
#19
08-17-2004, 05:09 PM
Re: Official Golden Gate G35 Dyno Day Results
Barry,
I wouldn't call my setup exactly optimal but defintely a good one for someone, like you said, looking for power gains but wants to keep the volume at a reasonable level for a reasonable price. It ain't gonna look "pretty" like a Stillen or a Borla but it gets the job done. As for the costs I'll break it down here for my particular case so take it for what it's worth. Your mileage may vary depending on how lazy you are. =P
1) NFC Motorsports Y-pipe (stock diameter) $285 + shipping
http://www.nfcmotorsports.com/a.html
2) Maganaflow 22" Resonator #10436 $75 + shipping
http://www.magnaflow.com/02product/universal/round.htm
3) Used stock sedan mid-pipe for future replacement $40
4) Labor at local muffler shop to weld in Magnaflow resonator $50
I installed the Y-pipe myself so that saved me some labor costs. So excluding shipping one could potentially have this setup for around $450. Half the price of say a Stillen or a Fujitsubo catback system. Add another $100 or so if they want a Y-pipe with flex sections (the NFC does not have flex sections). One important point to remember though is if you get a Y-pipe that is not stock in diameter, such as the 3" ones, then it would probably be wise to buy and have a transistion tube welded into the midpipe with a flange to avoid any disruption in flow. Another option to the midpipe would be to just buy a used coupe midpipe although I did not like the sound of it when I was experimenting. But like you said and many other have ad naseum, the major gains to be had are in the Y-pipe anyway. The freerer flowing mid-pipe and weight loss is just a bonus.
04' G35S 6MT Ivory Pearl, Willow, Premium
Z-Tube / NFC Y-Pipe / Custom Mid-Pipe / 350 EVO Rear Sway/ '03 350Z Shocks and Springs
I wouldn't call my setup exactly optimal but defintely a good one for someone, like you said, looking for power gains but wants to keep the volume at a reasonable level for a reasonable price. It ain't gonna look "pretty" like a Stillen or a Borla but it gets the job done. As for the costs I'll break it down here for my particular case so take it for what it's worth. Your mileage may vary depending on how lazy you are. =P
1) NFC Motorsports Y-pipe (stock diameter) $285 + shipping
http://www.nfcmotorsports.com/a.html
2) Maganaflow 22" Resonator #10436 $75 + shipping
http://www.magnaflow.com/02product/universal/round.htm
3) Used stock sedan mid-pipe for future replacement $40
4) Labor at local muffler shop to weld in Magnaflow resonator $50
I installed the Y-pipe myself so that saved me some labor costs. So excluding shipping one could potentially have this setup for around $450. Half the price of say a Stillen or a Fujitsubo catback system. Add another $100 or so if they want a Y-pipe with flex sections (the NFC does not have flex sections). One important point to remember though is if you get a Y-pipe that is not stock in diameter, such as the 3" ones, then it would probably be wise to buy and have a transistion tube welded into the midpipe with a flange to avoid any disruption in flow. Another option to the midpipe would be to just buy a used coupe midpipe although I did not like the sound of it when I was experimenting. But like you said and many other have ad naseum, the major gains to be had are in the Y-pipe anyway. The freerer flowing mid-pipe and weight loss is just a bonus.
04' G35S 6MT Ivory Pearl, Willow, Premium
Z-Tube / NFC Y-Pipe / Custom Mid-Pipe / 350 EVO Rear Sway/ '03 350Z Shocks and Springs
#20
08-17-2004, 06:48 PM
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Re: Official Golden Gate G35 Dyno Day Results
Darren,
Sounds like you got some great pricing. My local muffler shop wanted $200 just to INSTALL my Stillen (quoted $100/hr). I didn't think you could pick up a used mid-pipe that cheap either. So... That means with a good (flex section) y-pipe, it should be feasible for someone to sell this package for $600 (and still make money). They could even make it a 2 stage kit (stage 1 just the y-pipe and resonator, stage 2 with a muffler for those who want more aggressive sound)!
2004.5 G35 Sedan | Garnet Fire + Willow | 6MT | Z-Tube
Sounds like you got some great pricing. My local muffler shop wanted $200 just to INSTALL my Stillen (quoted $100/hr). I didn't think you could pick up a used mid-pipe that cheap either. So... That means with a good (flex section) y-pipe, it should be feasible for someone to sell this package for $600 (and still make money). They could even make it a 2 stage kit (stage 1 just the y-pipe and resonator, stage 2 with a muffler for those who want more aggressive sound)!
2004.5 G35 Sedan | Garnet Fire + Willow | 6MT | Z-Tube
#21
08-17-2004, 07:19 PM
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Re: Official Golden Gate G35 Dyno Day Results
I really didn't get the exhaust to gain hp, I wanted that extra sound. I wish someone would have had the phlem, I was thinking about it for my next mod. Maybe I will just stick to sound system and rims for next mod. At least it will look and sound good inside and out.
2003 Blk/Blk Premium w/navigation
Tinted Windows (20%)
Chrome Wheels
BRM Catback Exhaust
Injen CAI (blue)
Unorthodox Crank Pulley (blue)
Clear Corners
Grounding Wires (blue)
255/45ZR17's rear
2003 Blk/Blk Premium w/navigation
Tinted Windows (20%)
Chrome Wheels
BRM Catback Exhaust
Injen CAI (blue)
Unorthodox Crank Pulley (blue)
Clear Corners
Grounding Wires (blue)
255/45ZR17's rear
#22
08-17-2004, 11:32 PM
Re: Official Golden Gate G35 Dyno Day Results
<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>
So Modacar did have the weather station and for my dyno runs I was at SAE Correction Factor 5, whatever that means. So the whole weather thing can be put aside theoretically as far as a variable.
<hr></blockquote>
The correctoin factor you guys are refering to is unfortunately NOT the environmential correction that is of interest. The correction factor 5 pointed out is in fact for smoothing (or antializing) of the graph for better readability and minor noise filtration. 5 being the smoothest and 1 being the least.
SAE environmental correction is a completely different factor that monitors ambiant temperature, barrometric pressure and humidity for normalization of Hp and Tq readings. Nothing I have seen here thus far indicates it is in fact used, although it is safe to assume it was used as a well knowledged Dyno operation will surely have it enabled for the runs. A factor of 1.0 would suggest no correction, while 1.02 would mean a 2% correction and so forth. This could (or perhaps not) explain why the large variation between some runs ... if in fact NO corrections were applied.
The real question of you guys is, did you all obtain the DynoJet run files??? If not it's not too late to do so, as most Dyno places keep your records in their PC. Inside the file lies all the necessary information one seeks, including but not limited to Hp, Tq, AF, temperature, humidity, pressure, rpm, etc. Using the The DynoJet freeware viewer program, one could enable SAE environmental correction, smoothing and compare multiple runs in high resolution. Simply invaluable.
Clint (THX723)<P ID="edit"><FONT class="small"><EM>Edited by THX723 on 08/17/04 08:43 PM.</EM></FONT></P>
So Modacar did have the weather station and for my dyno runs I was at SAE Correction Factor 5, whatever that means. So the whole weather thing can be put aside theoretically as far as a variable.
<hr></blockquote>
The correctoin factor you guys are refering to is unfortunately NOT the environmential correction that is of interest. The correction factor 5 pointed out is in fact for smoothing (or antializing) of the graph for better readability and minor noise filtration. 5 being the smoothest and 1 being the least.
SAE environmental correction is a completely different factor that monitors ambiant temperature, barrometric pressure and humidity for normalization of Hp and Tq readings. Nothing I have seen here thus far indicates it is in fact used, although it is safe to assume it was used as a well knowledged Dyno operation will surely have it enabled for the runs. A factor of 1.0 would suggest no correction, while 1.02 would mean a 2% correction and so forth. This could (or perhaps not) explain why the large variation between some runs ... if in fact NO corrections were applied.
The real question of you guys is, did you all obtain the DynoJet run files??? If not it's not too late to do so, as most Dyno places keep your records in their PC. Inside the file lies all the necessary information one seeks, including but not limited to Hp, Tq, AF, temperature, humidity, pressure, rpm, etc. Using the The DynoJet freeware viewer program, one could enable SAE environmental correction, smoothing and compare multiple runs in high resolution. Simply invaluable.
Clint (THX723)<P ID="edit"><FONT class="small"><EM>Edited by THX723 on 08/17/04 08:43 PM.</EM></FONT></P>
#23
08-18-2004, 12:22 AM
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Re: Official Golden Gate G35 Dyno Day Results
Indeed, reading the plots more carefully, this is now clearer in light of THX723's comments.
CF: SAE Smoothing: 5
Meaning the correction factor is "SAE" and the graph smoothing is "level 5". Guess we'll have to get the data files to know for sure. They didn't have a floppy drive in their PC, and I guess nobody had a USB flash drive, or any other mechanism to get the data off Modacar's PC. Hopefully the files aren't too big and can just be e-mailed? If not could you try get a copy Andy (chenga) if you go out for another 100 octane run? Anybody live close by Modacar???
2004.5 G35 Sedan | Garnet Fire + Willow | 6MT | Z-Tube
CF: SAE Smoothing: 5
Meaning the correction factor is "SAE" and the graph smoothing is "level 5". Guess we'll have to get the data files to know for sure. They didn't have a floppy drive in their PC, and I guess nobody had a USB flash drive, or any other mechanism to get the data off Modacar's PC. Hopefully the files aren't too big and can just be e-mailed? If not could you try get a copy Andy (chenga) if you go out for another 100 octane run? Anybody live close by Modacar???
2004.5 G35 Sedan | Garnet Fire + Willow | 6MT | Z-Tube
#24
08-18-2004, 03:17 AM
#25
08-18-2004, 12:48 PM
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Re: Official Golden Gate G35 Dyno Day Results
As far as upgrading y-pipes, there's a group buy on my350z right now - 190$ shipped. I'm going to install it and head to ModaCar for another set of dynos. Any1 wants to do another dyno day day let's say in a month? Hopefully people will have some new mods by than to test them out.
***04 G35s 5AT/Sport***
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***04 Volvo XC90 T6***
#26
08-18-2004, 01:50 PM
Re: Official Golden Gate G35 Dyno Day Results
Thanks for the correction THX. Learn something new everyday. Andy, hopefully you get those files. Might as well ask Casey or whoever if the weather station is hooked up and being used with their dyno.
04' G35S 6MT Ivory Pearl, Willow, Premium
Z-Tube / NFC Y-Pipe / Custom Mid-Pipe / 350 EVO Rear Sway/ '03 350Z Shocks and Springs
04' G35S 6MT Ivory Pearl, Willow, Premium
Z-Tube / NFC Y-Pipe / Custom Mid-Pipe / 350 EVO Rear Sway/ '03 350Z Shocks and Springs
#27
08-18-2004, 02:52 PM
#28
08-18-2004, 02:56 PM
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Re: Official Golden Gate G35 Dyno Day Results
#29
08-18-2004, 03:24 PM
Re: Official Golden Gate G35 Dyno Day Results
<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>
Casey (Modacar tech) said the dyno numbers are corrected for heat/humidity etc...
<hr></blockquote>Good to know ... and as I've suspected.
Another thing I wanted to point out. The dyno you guys used appeared to be on par w. the last DynoJet I used at the SoCal 350Z Dyno Day. Two stock 5AT 350Zs dyno'd approx. 214 hp to the rear wheel, which compares favorably with the 215rwhp of the stock 5AT coupe you guys had. As usual, our Dyno Day also generated some controvesies of its own. The majority of the owners were disappointed with ther numbers.
As a heads up ... we're also having another Dyno Day here in a couple of weeks (September 4th) in SoCal. This time, it will be on a loadedp Dyna Pack ... arguably more accurate IMHO. So, look out for the results then.
Cheers,
Clint (THX723)
Casey (Modacar tech) said the dyno numbers are corrected for heat/humidity etc...
<hr></blockquote>Good to know ... and as I've suspected.
Another thing I wanted to point out. The dyno you guys used appeared to be on par w. the last DynoJet I used at the SoCal 350Z Dyno Day. Two stock 5AT 350Zs dyno'd approx. 214 hp to the rear wheel, which compares favorably with the 215rwhp of the stock 5AT coupe you guys had. As usual, our Dyno Day also generated some controvesies of its own. The majority of the owners were disappointed with ther numbers.
As a heads up ... we're also having another Dyno Day here in a couple of weeks (September 4th) in SoCal. This time, it will be on a loadedp Dyna Pack ... arguably more accurate IMHO. So, look out for the results then.
Cheers,
Clint (THX723)
#30
08-18-2004, 04:03 PM
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Re: Official Golden Gate G35 Dyno Day Results
Ok, here are the SPL numbers. Sorry for the delay (left my notebook in the G, which the wife drives daily). First, some caveats and conditions:
1) These numbers can really only be used to make relative comparisons. I took these measurements inside a big concrete echo chamber (gotta love those yellow concrete floors)!
2) The numbers have nothing to do with SPL measurements taken to verify noise regulation compliance (don’t blame me if some cop says your too loud)!
Test setup:
Radio Shack digital SPL meter (cheap, but good enough for our purposes), on C-weighting (flat curve), where both slow and fast response times measured: 1st run slow, 2nd fast, 3rd slow. Distance approx. 9ft, height approx. 3 ft, measured with mic. pointing at mid-bumper (license plate). Distance was basically chosen at random – close enough to get good readings, far enough to keep the meter from peaking (and me still able to breathe). Ambient noise level 71dB (dyno fans running).
Linda’s Coupe with BRM: Slow 113dB peak (first car measured, didn’t do fast response).
Andrew’s Stock AT Sedan: Slow 100dB peak
Skeleton’s AT Sedan w/Borla: Slow 109dB peak
Barry’s 6MT Sedan w/Stillen: Slow 110dB peak
Andy’s 6MT Sedan w/Stillen: Slow 110dB peak, Fast 115dB peak
David’s Stock 6MT Coupe: Slow 98dB peak, Fast 99dB peak
Don’s AT Sedan (stock exhaust, Z-tube, popcharger): Slow 101dB peak, Fast 103dB peak
Ross’ 6MT 350Z (stock exhaust, popcharger): Slow 104dB peak, Fast 107dB peak
Rommel’s E36 M3: Slow 111dB peak, Fast 114dB peak
James’ Eclipse: Slow 122dB peak!!!, Fast 122dB peak
Steve’s Camero V6: Slow 105dB peak, Fast 107dB peak
Soo… James (custom Greddy) wins the SPL contest! Then again, Steve wins the “most stinky exhaust” contest…
Some personal, perceptual comments (not quantitatively supported):
Linda’s BRM sounded SWEET. Sorry I didn’t get to measure/hear the Fujitsubo
Although coupes (stock) have a deeper growl than stock sedans, the peak numbers are surprisingly about the same.
The Borla and Stillen are comparable, as heard from outside the car.
It’d be fun to get some “street” numbers next time (drive-by at WOT, etc.). For now, I’m happy nothing flew off anybody’s tires at 100+ mph!
2004.5 G35 Sedan | Garnet Fire + Willow | 6MT | Z-Tube
1) These numbers can really only be used to make relative comparisons. I took these measurements inside a big concrete echo chamber (gotta love those yellow concrete floors)!
2) The numbers have nothing to do with SPL measurements taken to verify noise regulation compliance (don’t blame me if some cop says your too loud)!
Test setup:
Radio Shack digital SPL meter (cheap, but good enough for our purposes), on C-weighting (flat curve), where both slow and fast response times measured: 1st run slow, 2nd fast, 3rd slow. Distance approx. 9ft, height approx. 3 ft, measured with mic. pointing at mid-bumper (license plate). Distance was basically chosen at random – close enough to get good readings, far enough to keep the meter from peaking (and me still able to breathe). Ambient noise level 71dB (dyno fans running).
Linda’s Coupe with BRM: Slow 113dB peak (first car measured, didn’t do fast response).
Andrew’s Stock AT Sedan: Slow 100dB peak
Skeleton’s AT Sedan w/Borla: Slow 109dB peak
Barry’s 6MT Sedan w/Stillen: Slow 110dB peak
Andy’s 6MT Sedan w/Stillen: Slow 110dB peak, Fast 115dB peak
David’s Stock 6MT Coupe: Slow 98dB peak, Fast 99dB peak
Don’s AT Sedan (stock exhaust, Z-tube, popcharger): Slow 101dB peak, Fast 103dB peak
Ross’ 6MT 350Z (stock exhaust, popcharger): Slow 104dB peak, Fast 107dB peak
Rommel’s E36 M3: Slow 111dB peak, Fast 114dB peak
James’ Eclipse: Slow 122dB peak!!!, Fast 122dB peak
Steve’s Camero V6: Slow 105dB peak, Fast 107dB peak
Soo… James (custom Greddy) wins the SPL contest! Then again, Steve wins the “most stinky exhaust” contest…
Some personal, perceptual comments (not quantitatively supported):
Linda’s BRM sounded SWEET. Sorry I didn’t get to measure/hear the Fujitsubo
Although coupes (stock) have a deeper growl than stock sedans, the peak numbers are surprisingly about the same.
The Borla and Stillen are comparable, as heard from outside the car.
It’d be fun to get some “street” numbers next time (drive-by at WOT, etc.). For now, I’m happy nothing flew off anybody’s tires at 100+ mph!
2004.5 G35 Sedan | Garnet Fire + Willow | 6MT | Z-Tube