Hello guy
I have a 2008 G35 AWD X Sedan ( lowered on springs) 245/35/20
i've owned this car for a couple years but i rarely ride it, since it's always been such a headache. After spending so much money on tires lasting barely 5 months i decided to finally attempt to figure out what's wrong
first i was told that getting the SPC's rear camber arm with toe bolts would fix it, I went out and bought them had them install and aligned aswell and the wear seemed alot less.
7 Months in, the left tire seemed alot less worn while the right hand rear tire was completetly worn ?
The shop highlighted that it could be the rear subframe, which makes abit of sense, this is a rebuilt title.
What do you think can truely be causing this problem? I've spent so much money in trying to get my car to handle well and feel good on the road but no matter what i do it doesnt seem to be on point.
Here is a picture of my aligment spec sheets in hopes anyone here has a clue as to what this could be?
I also bought the front adjustable control arms and will be getting them installed soon.


Notice the rear left side toe.

 

Take it to a shop that knows what they're doing, whoever is doing your alignment obviously doesn't. No reputable shop would ever give you proper camber but leave you with a degree and a half of toe. You are supposed to set toe FIRST, THEN pull camber as close to spec as possible.

There is a relationship between toe and camber, if you loosen one it gives more adjustment on the other, thus why you always pull toe into spec first since THAT is what eats tires, camber just determines the angle of the wear but toe literally is making your tire slide sideways down the road instead of rolling straight down the road.

Did you go to Firestone or something? This is the kind of crap work they typically do since they don't actually understand how the triangle geometry works, they just do "make boxes green on sheet".

Take a photo of the components on your rear suspension on that corner, one of the rods has a "bend" in it and I'm betting your car ate a curb at one point and bent that rod a little more and thus why they are having trouble with that corner.

 

First, thank you cleric670 you're usually the one that replies, never fails. Appreciate you taking your time to help us out here.

I took the car to a regular mechanic to get them installed, as other places refused. They seem like they do honest work but by the looks of it' they dont know much about aftermarket aligments. I had a feeling that something was up, especially since they where able to adjust the camber correctly but not the toe? Did they even utilize the toe bolts? I wonder..
You're right after the REAR SPC camber arms installed i still have a tire eating issue. My handling just feels absolutetly horrible. The car looks great but the handling feels like i'm driving a tractor down a gravel road.
I found a place called "custom wheel connection" This place specializes in lifting trucks by the looks of it, and also suspension work. I'm hoping they do a better job on the next job, Which is installing the front Adjustable control arms, This place quoated me 350$ for installing the front arms, and i mentioned to them the problem with my back spc arms most llikely being installed wrong, and they said 50$ to adjust them. Am i being ripped off here? I dont do this work myself because of the lack of tools.
Do you happen to know what that rod with the bend is called? Is it a compression rod?

 

No the compression rod is in the front suspension, the two components for the rear suspension (well main two anyways) are the lower spring bucket and the other one with the bend is technically called the "front lower link" but it's more commonly referred to as the "rear toe arm" or ""rear control arm".

Here is a photo.



This component attaches to the front side of the knuckle, as you turn the eccentric bolt to adjust alignment this makes the rear tire turn to the left or right. The spring bucket attaches to the bottom of the knuckle and adjusting it's bolt makes the wheel camber angle in/out.

Here is just the rear hub/knuckle assembly with the spring bucket at top (spring fits into that circular part) and you can see the front lower link sticking out on the left side. Arrow points towards the front of the car, ignore the other components that aren't bolted up.



Both the spring bucket and front lower link are attached to the subframe with an "eccentric bolt", as you turn the bolt it moves the spring bucket/lower link in or out in relation to the subframe, this will physically rotate the angle of the knuckle/hub vertically or horizontally to set alignment toe/camber. The front lower link adjusts toe, the spring bucket adjusts camber.

Here is a pic of an eccentric bolt, the washer is welded to the nut so it's an assembly. The washer is captured into a groove in the subframe so when you rotate it the bolt either pulls the spring bucket/lower link in closer or pushes it out farther.



Aftermarket adjustable rear suspension will typically replace the spring bucket eccentric bolt with one that has MORE adjustment, basically the bolt is welded even closer to the edge of the washer.

Then the front lower link is replaced with a "turnbuckle" type of rod that has much more adjustment than stock. As the suspension is lowered the car will have much more negative camber, in order to pull the camber back out you turn the aftermarket eccentric nut which has more adjustment but that will also require the use of the turnbuckle style front lower link because the OEM front lower link will never have enough adjustment to get toe in spec.

Here is a picture of the turnbuckle style of front lower link. You can rotate the center section and it will make the entire assembly longer, then you use the jam nuts to lock up against it to keep it locked in place.



I suggest you get this style of arm installed in place of the factory front lower link, this will allow an alignment shop to get your toe pulled back into spec. Check under your rear suspension and take a photo from both the front of the rear tire and the rear of the rear tire from UNDER the vehicle, I'm curious to see what exactly is going on under your car.

I will post a couple pics of my car in a few minutes, try to take the same picture of your car.

 

Actually I just need a picture from BEHIND the rear tire like this one I took. Notice that my front lower link has been replaced with that turnbuckle-style aftermarket arm. I also have replaced the eccentric bolt on my spring bucket with the SPC aftermarket one.

The reason you don't see an eccentric bolt on the front lower link anymore is you typically use a bolt lockout kit (that square piece of metal) when you switch over to an aftermarket adjustable rod since the adjustment is now made with the rod instead of with the eccentric bolt.

 

Alot of information cleric appreciate that, i actually learned alot in your post, I had no idea about any of this the pictures you posted made things alot easier to understand.
On the back i currently have installed SPC "camber arms" They look very similar to that one you posted in a picture. It came with the two "camber arms" and the two bolts,which the mechanic had to drill a bigger hole in order to put them in. I've re read what you said a couple times but i still have a slight confusion. Is the SPC rear camber kit i got not the same as that turnbuckle picture you posted? or are they completely separate parts? After i installed them the wheels are no longer sunked in due to bad camber, And the right wheel appears to have proper camber and toe , but the left one appears to have over a degree and a half of toe in. Could it be that the mechanic could not adjust that side? or didn't do a good job? as soon as it's day time i will attempt to take a picture of the bottom of my car from the same angle you've posted.


also any opinion on the price i was quoated for the front adjustable control arms i bought? I bought them in order to get the front camber in order.

 

The SPC rear camber kit includes both those aftermarket components that are in the picture I took. They should have been able to get you properly aligned, I would definitely look under the car though to make sure they put the SPC eccentric bolt (will be shinier than the factory ones) ON THE SPRING BUCKET.

It's possible they put it on the toe arm.

Here is where those components go.



Ignore that the picture shows the aftermarket toe arm having a bend in it, I'm pretty sure the SPC one is completely straight.

I'm still leaning towards the alignment technician just not knowing what they were doing. It can be sort of hard to visualize how the different triangles that make up a multi-link suspension will affect the other values, you ALWAYS set the toe within spec first, then make camber adjustments which will pull the toe back out of spec. You keep going back and forth between the two to get camber as close to the customers preferred spec as possible but it's ABSOLUTELY CRITICAL that toe is within spec.

Imagine if you were getting your car towed with a strap attached to the front, the lead vehicle is pulling you forward. Now imagine if you turned your steering wheel to the left, sure it will pull you a little to the left but the lead vehicle WILL pull your car straight still, it will just make your front tires slide and hop on the road. That is EXACTLY what's happening to your rear tire, it's pointed a little to the side but the rest of the tires are keeping the car tracked straight on the road. The road will absolutely destroy that one tire not rolling straight. Toe adjustment makes the tire move just like the front does when you turn the steering wheel, it turns the wheel left/right.

You may have to compromise a little more negative camber in the rear in order to get the toe within spec, that's perfectly acceptable, however with those two components you SHOULD be able to get it all straight again depending on how much your car is lowered. At factory height it should definitely be within spec, those two components are good for lowering up to a tiny bit over 1 inch. Lowering the car creates negative camber.

As for the front, the only component that needs to be replaced with aftermarket is the front upper control arm (FUCA). The front of the car runs up to a degree of negative camber as per factory design. It's a pretty painless installation so $350 seems like a fair price IF THAT INCLUDES ALIGNMENT.

The vehicle absolutely needs to be aligned after you replace any suspension components.

While it's possible that the subframe is damaged and preventing proper alignment it's definitely NOT common, other components are designed to fail first.

In the picture I took, if you look directly above my toe arm with the lockout bolt you will see another adjustable rod that goes to the front of the car, it attaches to the chassis in FRONT of the wheel. Look on your car and see if that bar is an aftermarket one as well. The stock one looks like this.



That bar is very similar to the factory toe rod but it does NOT have a bend in it. Visually inspect it for a bend, also if it has been replaced with an aftermarket turnbuckle rod then that is very likely where the issue lies. Changing the length of that rod (which is not advised) makes DRASTIC changes in the range of adjustment on the toe rod and spring bucket eccentric nut.

If it has been replaced with an aftermarket one then that's probably where your mechanic needs to start, get ahold of an OEM rod and use it as a template to make the aftermarket one the exact same length (on a workbench put the bolts through the holes in the OEM one then put the aftermarket one on those same bolts) I went extra distance and wrote on the inboard side of my traction arms !DO NOT ADJUST! just so future alignment guys don't F up that rod.

 

Wow.. it seems they installed the toe bolts on the wrong place.. I think this bucket still has the original bolts by the looks of it. And they used the eccentric bolts on the wrong spot..


Now that these idiots have done this, it was done jan 2020.. so a year and 8 months ago, i have barely rode this car due to being so disappointed in wasting so much tires and the horrible handling.. now that the damage has been done, what can be done to fix it? Can i just pickup another set of toe bolts and have someone install them? or what is the best course of action here. I plan on visiting them monday with pictures and an explanation on what they've done. If they refuse to fix it and install those bolts where they belong i'm going to get heated.

 

Alright this is all starting to make sense though which is good. You don't need to buy another set of toe bolts. You can just PM me your address and I'll send you a set of the lockout bolts, I accidentally ordered 3 sets on my last order from Z1 >.<

The spring bucket holes will need to be extended though to make room for the extra +/- 1 degree of adjustment that the SPC bolts have. Basically it's an elongated hole that just needs to be even more elongated on the sides so the bolt in the middle can travel further left/right.

If you PM me your address I'll get them in the mail on Monday. It's better to put a lockout on the front toe arm rather than leaving eccentric bolts. These square lockout bolts are offset as well so you can have them installed to either add or subtract distance from the toe arm.

So what happened is they didn't have enough extra play in the spring bucket to make the necessary adjustment because they have the stock bolts in place. The SPC allows for the extra degree of adjustment that's needed to pull the suspension into alignment.

Instead of setting toe first they instead did camber first, didn't have enough play in the camber bolt (spring bucket), then just left it with the camber in spec but the toe out of spec.

HOWEVER if you look at the SPC bolt on the toe arm you see that it's in the MIDDLE POINT and not turned to the left or right, they COULD HAVE adjusted your toe to be within spec just by rotating that bolt! They have the turnbuckle arm almost at it's max length, you can see by how many threads are exposed on either side of the jam nut that locks up against the center turnbuckle section. At the end of the day you ended up with an alignment tech that didn't fundamentally understand what he was doing was the wrong way to set an alignment. Back to my previous comment of "make box turn green" that's all most alignment techs understand, not how the various triangles of the rear suspension relate to one another and which is most important (toe).

Fortunately you have the stock "traction arms" the forward facing ones, so there's no chance of it being wrongly adjusted, and from the picture it looks like they're nice and straight.

There also doesn't appear to be any visible bending or damage to that corner so it SHOULD be able to hit the target alignment.

Here is what the lockout bolts look like. If you scroll up to my previous photo of my car you can see where they install. Also in case you were wondering why it looks different on my car where the spring bucket is attached it's because of the RAS option on my year. Suspension geometry functions the same just a different looking attach point.

Save the picture of my rear suspension and show them, picture worth 1000+ words and whatnot, then they will know what needs to be done to fix the issue. I don't think you can just swap the two toe bolts, they are a different length, thus why there are so many extra threads showing on the SPC bolts, it was meant to go in the spring bucket location which has a longer thread length. I don't think you can just swap the two sets of eccentric bolts but I've never actually tried. I thought they were a different diameter of bolt? Might be wrong about that though.

 

Wow cleric, you're an amazing person i can't thank you enough for helping me get to the bottom(literally) of the issue. I also looked down there and found no sub frame damage at all, i think they where lying to me in order to get more work done on my car. ? I did notice what you said, the Bucket toe area seems like it was not adjusted at all and i was lied to. I wonder if they even drilled the camber bolt hole bigger to fit those accentric toe bolts in? Knowing what i know now they possibly did because of their level of incompetence. I would really appreciate that set of lockout bolts you've got, I was wondering how'd id get my hand on those again. I was worried they wouldn't have camber bolts to replace when they swap out and put the toe bolts in the right place. I would really appreciate if you send them to me. I will paypal you the cost of the mailing and the cost of the bolts aswell no problem at all, your help and explanation is worth more than money.

 

No problem, that's what G35DRIVER is here for.

 

(edit found) this is the template if anyone ever needs it in the future.