How small is too small?
#1
07-09-2003 | 05:57 PM
How small is too small?
I know I'm going to be very, very alone on this, but I was thinking about going with even smaller wheels than my stock 17"s. Maybe 15x10s. I really want my car to be lighter on its feet, although I haven't checked to see if I could live with the looks yet.
Anyway, this got me thinking... lighter is generally better, but how small is too small? Obviously 1 inch wheels would not make for a fast car. Can you just keep going until the engine completely overpowers the wheels and you can never get them to stick to the ground, or does there come a point where that engine has to work much harder in order to travel the same speed on a smaller wheel, similar to how smaller gears compare with larger gears?
-Jack
Obsidian/graphite '03 Coupe premium nav
Anyway, this got me thinking... lighter is generally better, but how small is too small? Obviously 1 inch wheels would not make for a fast car. Can you just keep going until the engine completely overpowers the wheels and you can never get them to stick to the ground, or does there come a point where that engine has to work much harder in order to travel the same speed on a smaller wheel, similar to how smaller gears compare with larger gears?
-Jack
Obsidian/graphite '03 Coupe premium nav
#2
07-09-2003 | 06:19 PM
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Joined: Jul 2002
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From: South Florida
But if you like how it looks, I'll support ya.
#4
07-09-2003 | 07:44 PM
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From: CA
Re: How small is too small?
Are you kidding? Please tell me you are kidding. You are not driving a lowered Honda Civic hatchback. Anything lower than 18" on this car looks like donuts!
I have the 17" wheels and I do double takes on how small they look, the back looks so buldged out, but the wheels are so small looking that I keep wishing I would buy 18+" wheels.
Please, please, please, do not put on wheels any lower than 17" on your car. It will look ridiculously stupid, it will not make you faster, and it will not increase your MPH/MPG. And yes you are right, at a certain point (like 15" wheels) you will not be able to accelarate without losing grip, unless you get some 265/75/15 tires (if they even have those....). Also take in the fact that the higher the sidewalls on your tires, the worse the handling will be, it will feel like you are riding on rubber tubes. Think about how high your sidewalls will be with 15" wheels. Lowering your call will not make it any better.
Now please think about it, do you really think all the cons outweigh your one benefit of having lighter wheels? Sure 17/18" lightweight wheels are expensive, but for that price you will not sacrifice handling and grip. I could name off some lightweight 17/18" wheels for you if you'd like, in correct offsets too.
CB 5AT - SAC, CA
I have the 17" wheels and I do double takes on how small they look, the back looks so buldged out, but the wheels are so small looking that I keep wishing I would buy 18+" wheels.
Please, please, please, do not put on wheels any lower than 17" on your car. It will look ridiculously stupid, it will not make you faster, and it will not increase your MPH/MPG. And yes you are right, at a certain point (like 15" wheels) you will not be able to accelarate without losing grip, unless you get some 265/75/15 tires (if they even have those....). Also take in the fact that the higher the sidewalls on your tires, the worse the handling will be, it will feel like you are riding on rubber tubes. Think about how high your sidewalls will be with 15" wheels. Lowering your call will not make it any better.
Now please think about it, do you really think all the cons outweigh your one benefit of having lighter wheels? Sure 17/18" lightweight wheels are expensive, but for that price you will not sacrifice handling and grip. I could name off some lightweight 17/18" wheels for you if you'd like, in correct offsets too.
CB 5AT - SAC, CA
#6
07-09-2003 | 09:14 PM
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From: San Diego, CA
#7
07-09-2003 | 09:31 PM
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Re: How small is too small?
JDMan?
If you like JDM why don't you stick with the factory 17's. they are a Rays Engineering production. An actual Nismo wheel. And to much amazement are pretty damn light. (At least the 5 spokes are). The reasons you have for going smaller are not very beneficial. I would save your money and stay stock or go for an expensive light weight racing wheel in 17"+.
If you like JDM why don't you stick with the factory 17's. they are a Rays Engineering production. An actual Nismo wheel. And to much amazement are pretty damn light. (At least the 5 spokes are). The reasons you have for going smaller are not very beneficial. I would save your money and stay stock or go for an expensive light weight racing wheel in 17"+.
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#9
07-09-2003 | 11:49 PM
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From: San Diego, CA
Re: How small is too small?
gordgee: Sorry.. didn't mean it that way. [img]/w3timages/icons/smile.gif[/img] I just meant 16" was a good size.. you can get good, lightweight rims in that size. And, nobody had mentioned the fact yet, in this thread, that the base sedan actually comes with 16's.
haYanNoize: The 17" 5-spoke wheels are actually pretty darn heavy. 22-24lbs each, I think. They may be a Ray's design, but they're cast to be cheap instead of forged to be lightweight, if I'm not mistaken. Even some SSR or Volk lightweight wheels in the same 17x7 size can shave about 8lbs per rim and get you down to around 15-16lbs each. In fact, you can get aftermarket 18's or 19's that are actually lighter than the 5-spoke rims.
2003.5 G35 Sedan Desert Platinum/Graphite Premium/Sport/Aero/Nav/Winter
haYanNoize: The 17" 5-spoke wheels are actually pretty darn heavy. 22-24lbs each, I think. They may be a Ray's design, but they're cast to be cheap instead of forged to be lightweight, if I'm not mistaken. Even some SSR or Volk lightweight wheels in the same 17x7 size can shave about 8lbs per rim and get you down to around 15-16lbs each. In fact, you can get aftermarket 18's or 19's that are actually lighter than the 5-spoke rims.
2003.5 G35 Sedan Desert Platinum/Graphite Premium/Sport/Aero/Nav/Winter
#10
07-09-2003 | 11:59 PM
Re: How small is too small?
Ryoken:
No need to apologize bro.[img]/w3timages/icons/smile.gif[/img] No offense taken!
haYanNoise:
What Ryoken says! He knows things! <font color=white>Maybe too much! About all of us!</font color=white>[img]/w3timages/icons/laugh.gif[/img][img]/w3timages/icons/laugh.gif[/img]
<font color=green>GG</font color=green>
No need to apologize bro.[img]/w3timages/icons/smile.gif[/img] No offense taken!
haYanNoise:
What Ryoken says! He knows things! <font color=white>Maybe too much! About all of us!</font color=white>[img]/w3timages/icons/laugh.gif[/img][img]/w3timages/icons/laugh.gif[/img]
<font color=green>GG</font color=green>
#11
07-10-2003 | 01:55 AM
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From: San Diego, CA
#13
07-10-2003 | 11:25 AM
Re: How small is too small?
Guys, I appreciate the heartfelt opinions on the necessity of large wheels for better looks (they also help get rid of all that unwanted acceleration so that the car is less blurry), but I was really looking more for help on analyzing the performance impact.
I know there's lots of lightweight 17" and 18" wheels out there. I've taken a long, long look at them. The thing is, any company that makes a lightweight 17" can make an even lighter 16" wheel with the same process. There's no getting around that. So if I'm already making a sacrifice by going with "small" 17 inch wheels, why stop there? A 16 would be lighter. It'd be less expensive, so I could afford higher quality. The tires would have a greater selection and be less expensive. I could replace them more often. My car should be faster and handle more nimbly, especially on a low speed course like in autocross.
Brake clearance is a good point though. I don't have the Brembos. Won't need them if I'm rolling the lightest wheels on any G. But it'd be reasonable to think that would stop me from going lower than 15, if not 16. Maybe I'll do an experiment and put on someone's crappy 15s at the track. Even if not designed for performance, they shouldn't weigh more than my 17s, and I can get a sense for how much impact they really have. As for looks, I'll decide if I can stand it after I figure out what the possibilities are. I'm not one of those people who can easily pick out a 1 inch difference.
But, if you'll humor me, let's say theoretically you could fit 10" K-car wheels that weight about 5 pounds each to a G. If you could somehow keep the wheels from breaking loose, would that be faster, or would you be at 5000rpms in 5th gear trying to get the things to hit 100 mph? I just don't have a good handle on the physics involved when you start making extreme changes like that.
-Jack
Obsidian/graphite '03 Coupe premium nav
I know there's lots of lightweight 17" and 18" wheels out there. I've taken a long, long look at them. The thing is, any company that makes a lightweight 17" can make an even lighter 16" wheel with the same process. There's no getting around that. So if I'm already making a sacrifice by going with "small" 17 inch wheels, why stop there? A 16 would be lighter. It'd be less expensive, so I could afford higher quality. The tires would have a greater selection and be less expensive. I could replace them more often. My car should be faster and handle more nimbly, especially on a low speed course like in autocross.
Brake clearance is a good point though. I don't have the Brembos. Won't need them if I'm rolling the lightest wheels on any G. But it'd be reasonable to think that would stop me from going lower than 15, if not 16. Maybe I'll do an experiment and put on someone's crappy 15s at the track. Even if not designed for performance, they shouldn't weigh more than my 17s, and I can get a sense for how much impact they really have. As for looks, I'll decide if I can stand it after I figure out what the possibilities are. I'm not one of those people who can easily pick out a 1 inch difference.
But, if you'll humor me, let's say theoretically you could fit 10" K-car wheels that weight about 5 pounds each to a G. If you could somehow keep the wheels from breaking loose, would that be faster, or would you be at 5000rpms in 5th gear trying to get the things to hit 100 mph? I just don't have a good handle on the physics involved when you start making extreme changes like that.
-Jack
Obsidian/graphite '03 Coupe premium nav
#14
07-10-2003 | 12:40 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
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From: San Diego, CA
Re: How small is too small?
As a side note, I think I've seen 15" wheels at 8lbs for large sums of $$$....
Anyway, it depends on the tire diameter. If you compensate for the smaller wheel with a taller tire, you'll still be rolling at the same speed at the same RPM, and be doing so with less unsprung weight (and less rotational mass for the engine to spin). The car should accelerate and handle a little better (as long as you stick with performance tires -- no cheesy generic passenger tires!). If you get a tire with a smaller diameter, then yes, you'll redline at a lower speed in each gear -- but get up there a little quicker, I think. You don't really want to deviate more than 3% from the original tire diameter, though, for daily driving -- throws off the speedometer and odometer too much. You could always get a smaller set of rims and racing tires, and just swap them with your 17's and street tires on track days. Then you can take advantage of Hoosier or Kumho DOT-legal racing rubber in an autocross.
The big issue is going to be brake clearance. I'm not even sure if 16's will clear the stock brakes on a coupe.
2003.5 G35 Sedan Desert Platinum/Graphite Premium/Sport/Aero/Nav/Winter
Anyway, it depends on the tire diameter. If you compensate for the smaller wheel with a taller tire, you'll still be rolling at the same speed at the same RPM, and be doing so with less unsprung weight (and less rotational mass for the engine to spin). The car should accelerate and handle a little better (as long as you stick with performance tires -- no cheesy generic passenger tires!). If you get a tire with a smaller diameter, then yes, you'll redline at a lower speed in each gear -- but get up there a little quicker, I think. You don't really want to deviate more than 3% from the original tire diameter, though, for daily driving -- throws off the speedometer and odometer too much. You could always get a smaller set of rims and racing tires, and just swap them with your 17's and street tires on track days. Then you can take advantage of Hoosier or Kumho DOT-legal racing rubber in an autocross.
The big issue is going to be brake clearance. I'm not even sure if 16's will clear the stock brakes on a coupe.
2003.5 G35 Sedan Desert Platinum/Graphite Premium/Sport/Aero/Nav/Winter
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