Sway Bar decisions. Help?
#16
08-29-2003, 01:49 AM
Re: Sway Bar decisions. Help?
Jedi (Addict)
08/28/03 06:49 AM
Gsedan35: Nothing personal man, lol, just that the coupe and sedan handle different (different wheelbases, wt., Cd., etc.) so I wanted feedback applicable to my situation.
__________________________________________________ _
I didn't think it was personel, that cool man. I wanted to see why you were not seeking imput when theirs no valid cause to exclude the sedan or the Z for that matter. The sedan has the same wheelbase, weight distrubution is within 1 percentage point or less, not enough difference in weight to be a factor either. And all 3 car's (350Z, coupe and sedan with sport suspension) use the same spring stiffness, only the Z get's struts that are valved more aggresively, which doesn't not matter once it's suspension is compressed. Their are a ton of user review's of several makes of bars on my350Z.com. These 350Z aftermarket sway bar impressions are fully applicable to you, do not ignor them.
Now that being said, I used them in a different manner. I researched all the bars made for the Z and gathered all the data on them that exist's. I then used that reasearch to pick what bar setup would offer me the most roll resistance. Paying attention also to engineering factory's on bar's that lacked specific spec's on real stiffness over stock when they did not exist, in a effort to pick the best setup for bar stiffness.
I came to this conclusion.
Either I go with the Cusco bars with their 37% greater front stiffness and 73% greate rear stiffness. Or,..........................
I go with the EVO350 bar set which offer 33% greater front stiffness and a more desireable 53% greater rear stiffness.
In the end, I hedged a bet that I'd be ok with the cusco's 20% greater rear bar stiffness and I'd net $150 saving if they were as good as all the review's from Z owners have said.
Now, with some mileage on my Cusco's I can add this. I'd still get the Cusco's, my fear of their 20% greater rear bar stiffness was largely unfounded. I have none of the bad behavior I feared. Yet, I still think the EVO350 bar's are still a fractional better choice, especially if used in competition. They have more adjustment range and are the ONLY bars that come with polyurathane bushings. EVO should have re-engineered bushings now that should cure past squeeking problems.
What about Nismo bars. I do not believe their hollow core design with a 1mm thicker front bar offers more stiffness vs the cusco's solid bars. Untill we know the thickness on the wall's on the nismo's or someone puts them in a sway bar tester.
What about stillen bars? I would like to know how they can claim up to 70% greater stiffness on hollow core bars that are the same diameter as Cusco's solid bar's. Knowing what I believe, I certainly wouldn't spend $80 to get less. (Hey, no matter what the stillen's will offer greater roll control over the stock bar's, but I want the most I can get).
I've posted this before, but I think I should post my aftermarket sway bar spec sheet again.
Nismo:
front- *36mm (hollow core design, like the stock bar)
rear- *22mm (hollow core design)
*However the this same person got different measurement's than I got when I used a dial caliper on the stock bars. So I have to question the accuracy of the above measurements. But their all I could find.
Cusco sway bar
35mm front (solid, not hollow)
22mm rear
Front sway bar has two settings of 20% and 37% stiffer then stock
Rear sway bar is 73% stiffer then stock.
$395 shipped (limited time offer)
Stillen 5-way adjustable bars
35mm front 22mm rear (converting from 1 3/8" & 7/8")
Adjustment range 7% to 70% (unknown if both front and rear bars have the same full 7% to 70% range)
$479
Mines Sway bars
Front 20% stiffer rear 30% stiffer
$699.00(OUCH!)
Eibach specs from Eibach.com
34mm hollow front 22mm hollow rear
Front bar may be dual adjustable, rear bar is dual adjustable
$264 from www.tirerack.com
350EVO Sway bars 3-way adjustable
34mm front and 23mm rear.
$545 shipped
Front bar
middle adjustment 11% stiffer
stiff adjustment 33% stiffer
Rear bar
middle adjustment 25% stiffer
stiff adjustment 53% stiffer
Ivry 6mt sed
Crawford Pleneum
Injen CAI
22" resonator
Cusco sway bars
350Z springs&struts
Enkei RPM2
08/28/03 06:49 AM
Gsedan35: Nothing personal man, lol, just that the coupe and sedan handle different (different wheelbases, wt., Cd., etc.) so I wanted feedback applicable to my situation.
__________________________________________________ _
I didn't think it was personel, that cool man. I wanted to see why you were not seeking imput when theirs no valid cause to exclude the sedan or the Z for that matter. The sedan has the same wheelbase, weight distrubution is within 1 percentage point or less, not enough difference in weight to be a factor either. And all 3 car's (350Z, coupe and sedan with sport suspension) use the same spring stiffness, only the Z get's struts that are valved more aggresively, which doesn't not matter once it's suspension is compressed. Their are a ton of user review's of several makes of bars on my350Z.com. These 350Z aftermarket sway bar impressions are fully applicable to you, do not ignor them.
Now that being said, I used them in a different manner. I researched all the bars made for the Z and gathered all the data on them that exist's. I then used that reasearch to pick what bar setup would offer me the most roll resistance. Paying attention also to engineering factory's on bar's that lacked specific spec's on real stiffness over stock when they did not exist, in a effort to pick the best setup for bar stiffness.
I came to this conclusion.
Either I go with the Cusco bars with their 37% greater front stiffness and 73% greate rear stiffness. Or,..........................
I go with the EVO350 bar set which offer 33% greater front stiffness and a more desireable 53% greater rear stiffness.
In the end, I hedged a bet that I'd be ok with the cusco's 20% greater rear bar stiffness and I'd net $150 saving if they were as good as all the review's from Z owners have said.
Now, with some mileage on my Cusco's I can add this. I'd still get the Cusco's, my fear of their 20% greater rear bar stiffness was largely unfounded. I have none of the bad behavior I feared. Yet, I still think the EVO350 bar's are still a fractional better choice, especially if used in competition. They have more adjustment range and are the ONLY bars that come with polyurathane bushings. EVO should have re-engineered bushings now that should cure past squeeking problems.
What about Nismo bars. I do not believe their hollow core design with a 1mm thicker front bar offers more stiffness vs the cusco's solid bars. Untill we know the thickness on the wall's on the nismo's or someone puts them in a sway bar tester.
What about stillen bars? I would like to know how they can claim up to 70% greater stiffness on hollow core bars that are the same diameter as Cusco's solid bar's. Knowing what I believe, I certainly wouldn't spend $80 to get less. (Hey, no matter what the stillen's will offer greater roll control over the stock bar's, but I want the most I can get).
I've posted this before, but I think I should post my aftermarket sway bar spec sheet again.
Nismo:
front- *36mm (hollow core design, like the stock bar)
rear- *22mm (hollow core design)
*However the this same person got different measurement's than I got when I used a dial caliper on the stock bars. So I have to question the accuracy of the above measurements. But their all I could find.
Cusco sway bar
35mm front (solid, not hollow)
22mm rear
Front sway bar has two settings of 20% and 37% stiffer then stock
Rear sway bar is 73% stiffer then stock.
$395 shipped (limited time offer)
Stillen 5-way adjustable bars
35mm front 22mm rear (converting from 1 3/8" & 7/8")
Adjustment range 7% to 70% (unknown if both front and rear bars have the same full 7% to 70% range)
$479
Mines Sway bars
Front 20% stiffer rear 30% stiffer
$699.00(OUCH!)
Eibach specs from Eibach.com
34mm hollow front 22mm hollow rear
Front bar may be dual adjustable, rear bar is dual adjustable
$264 from www.tirerack.com
350EVO Sway bars 3-way adjustable
34mm front and 23mm rear.
$545 shipped
Front bar
middle adjustment 11% stiffer
stiff adjustment 33% stiffer
Rear bar
middle adjustment 25% stiffer
stiff adjustment 53% stiffer
Ivry 6mt sed
Crawford Pleneum
Injen CAI
22" resonator
Cusco sway bars
350Z springs&struts
Enkei RPM2
#17
08-29-2003, 01:52 AM
Re: Sway Bar decisions. Help?
Jedi (Addict)
08/28/03 06:51 AM
BTW, anybody have any fitment problems with Cusco or Nismo that have an aftermarket exhaust?
__________________________________________________ _
I have not seen any of the sway bar review posts ever mention any exhaust system clearence issue. HOWEVER, the EVO350 rear bar is specifically bent to clear dual exhaust systems. But frankly, I'm sure all dual exhaust's are created to clear the stock bar anyway, hence the lack of complaint's.
Ivry 6mt sed
Crawford Pleneum
Injen CAI
22" resonator
Cusco sway bars
350Z springs&struts
Enkei RPM2
08/28/03 06:51 AM
BTW, anybody have any fitment problems with Cusco or Nismo that have an aftermarket exhaust?
__________________________________________________ _
I have not seen any of the sway bar review posts ever mention any exhaust system clearence issue. HOWEVER, the EVO350 rear bar is specifically bent to clear dual exhaust systems. But frankly, I'm sure all dual exhaust's are created to clear the stock bar anyway, hence the lack of complaint's.
Ivry 6mt sed
Crawford Pleneum
Injen CAI
22" resonator
Cusco sway bars
350Z springs&struts
Enkei RPM2
#18
08-29-2003, 02:03 AM
Re: Sway Bar decisions. Help?
ryoken (Carpal Tunnel)
08/28/03 09:58 PM
For stock classes, I noticed that SCCA rules allow a front sway bar, but you're not allowed to touch the stock rear sway bar, if any.
What kind of performance change would come from just a front sway bar, but keeping the rear stock?
And why, I wonder, are the rules that way?
__________________________________________________ _
Increasing the front sway bar diameter effectively increased front roll stiffness. That would bring you MORE understeer, not something you'd want. Just a thought, one could install the front EVO350 bar, it can be set to be SOFTER than the stock bar. That would lesson understeer to a degree. But I don't think it adjust's down enough to make any real difference. Let alone if it's good thinking in the first place, just thinking out loud here.[img]/w3timages/icons/crazy.gif[/img]
I read once on www.sccaforums.com why the rule's are that way, but I've forgotten why,.....sorry.
Ivry 6mt sed
Crawford Pleneum
Injen CAI
22" resonator
Cusco sway bars
350Z springs&struts
Enkei RPM2
<P ID="edit"><FONT class="small"><EM>Edited by malx on 08/29/03 06:14 AM.</EM></FONT></P>
08/28/03 09:58 PM
For stock classes, I noticed that SCCA rules allow a front sway bar, but you're not allowed to touch the stock rear sway bar, if any.
What kind of performance change would come from just a front sway bar, but keeping the rear stock?
And why, I wonder, are the rules that way?
__________________________________________________ _
Increasing the front sway bar diameter effectively increased front roll stiffness. That would bring you MORE understeer, not something you'd want. Just a thought, one could install the front EVO350 bar, it can be set to be SOFTER than the stock bar. That would lesson understeer to a degree. But I don't think it adjust's down enough to make any real difference. Let alone if it's good thinking in the first place, just thinking out loud here.[img]/w3timages/icons/crazy.gif[/img]
I read once on www.sccaforums.com why the rule's are that way, but I've forgotten why,.....sorry.
Ivry 6mt sed
Crawford Pleneum
Injen CAI
22" resonator
Cusco sway bars
350Z springs&struts
Enkei RPM2
<P ID="edit"><FONT class="small"><EM>Edited by malx on 08/29/03 06:14 AM.</EM></FONT></P>
#19
08-30-2003, 10:07 PM
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Sway Bar decisions. Help?
Well, most cars are set up to push from the factory. This leaves the only option as to going to a softer front bar or no bar. The exceptions are the few car you can get a lot of suspension adjustment out of. When I had my Miata set up with an agressive alignement for autocrossing, I needed the big bar with the 205 tires to keep the back end from constantly stepping out. When I switched to 225 tires, it started pushing again and the stock bar went back on. The SVO I drive now pushes a lot, so I am going to try a small 4-cylinder front bar.
I definitely won't be driving my G in stock classes. I think the 6mt sedan with the LSD will be a decent car in DS, but it will be very hard for the coupe to keep up with the Boxsters and S2000s in BS. There is a better option though: STX. Sure you can only run street tire, but the PAX is a lot more competitive. Since ours cars push a lot, you are free to change the rear bar.
Why are the rules like that? Going back over 20 years, this rule was created for safety reasons. There were cars that didn't come with any sway bars from the factory and were dynamically unstable. The front bar rule was added for safety, but never changed since. It is a little weird today with all the people whineing that it seems to take a set of $4000 shock to win nationals these days. Their solution is to ban aftermarket shocks because they aren't really "stock." But, they never say anything about the sway bar rule.
04' G35 Coupe(on order)
6-sp Diamond Graphite/Willow w/Premium
I definitely won't be driving my G in stock classes. I think the 6mt sedan with the LSD will be a decent car in DS, but it will be very hard for the coupe to keep up with the Boxsters and S2000s in BS. There is a better option though: STX. Sure you can only run street tire, but the PAX is a lot more competitive. Since ours cars push a lot, you are free to change the rear bar.
Why are the rules like that? Going back over 20 years, this rule was created for safety reasons. There were cars that didn't come with any sway bars from the factory and were dynamically unstable. The front bar rule was added for safety, but never changed since. It is a little weird today with all the people whineing that it seems to take a set of $4000 shock to win nationals these days. Their solution is to ban aftermarket shocks because they aren't really "stock." But, they never say anything about the sway bar rule.
04' G35 Coupe(on order)
6-sp Diamond Graphite/Willow w/Premium
#20
08-31-2003, 02:39 AM
Re: Sway Bar decisions. Help?
We don't run STX locally, only STS and some local "IS" (Improved Street) classes that cover STX and other cars that have street-legal mods that put them in prepared classes, but not enough to be competitive there. The local clubs like the IS classes and I don't think there's enough support to drop them for STX.
Besides, it's cheaper to just run in DS for now and not do anything to the car other than tire pressure. I'm not quite ready to start plunking money into my car beyond the monthly payments and maintanence.
2003.5 G35 Sedan Desert Platinum/Graphite Premium/Sport/Aero/Nav/Winter
Besides, it's cheaper to just run in DS for now and not do anything to the car other than tire pressure. I'm not quite ready to start plunking money into my car beyond the monthly payments and maintanence.
2003.5 G35 Sedan Desert Platinum/Graphite Premium/Sport/Aero/Nav/Winter
#21
09-03-2003, 12:33 AM
RugRatCoupe
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Re: Sway Bar decisions. Help?
Gsedan35,
RugRatCoupe Here, I haven't posted or replied in awhile but I have a G35c 6mt w/ the Eibach Pro-Kit, Stillen Exhaust & Injen Intake running synthitic Oil & just installed NISMO Sway bars( from Gruppe-S). No fitment problems what so ever.
The car was totally transformed w/ the Nismo Sway Bars. I added these last.
After the sway bar installation, I took the car to open Track day at Talladega Gran Prix, a tight 1.3 mile road course August 17th sponsored by the American Shelby and Cobra Club of Alabama. With 29 PSI in the tires, The G handled really neutral like a Go-Cart, I should know since I have an extensive backgroound in 2 cycle sprint kart racing. Anyway I had the 2nd fastest lap time of the day & the only one in the top 5 w/ street tires. Needless to say I'm impressed with the Nismo/Eibach combination.
A few PICS...
97497-Nismo5SwayBarsSmall.jpg
RugRatCoupe Here, I haven't posted or replied in awhile but I have a G35c 6mt w/ the Eibach Pro-Kit, Stillen Exhaust & Injen Intake running synthitic Oil & just installed NISMO Sway bars( from Gruppe-S). No fitment problems what so ever.
The car was totally transformed w/ the Nismo Sway Bars. I added these last.
After the sway bar installation, I took the car to open Track day at Talladega Gran Prix, a tight 1.3 mile road course August 17th sponsored by the American Shelby and Cobra Club of Alabama. With 29 PSI in the tires, The G handled really neutral like a Go-Cart, I should know since I have an extensive backgroound in 2 cycle sprint kart racing. Anyway I had the 2nd fastest lap time of the day & the only one in the top 5 w/ street tires. Needless to say I'm impressed with the Nismo/Eibach combination.
A few PICS...
97497-Nismo5SwayBarsSmall.jpg
#22
09-03-2003, 12:35 AM
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#23
09-03-2003, 12:38 AM
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Re: Sway Bar decisions. Help?
#24
09-03-2003, 12:44 AM
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Re: Sway Bar decisions. Help?
#25
09-04-2003, 08:34 PM
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#26
09-05-2003, 11:29 AM
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Re: Sway Bar decisions. Help?
Not sure how many mm the bars are, but after removing the stock front sway bar there was a noticable diff. in size & wieght. The Nismo's being larger & heaver which tells me even though they are hollow, they are probably thicker wall material.
98662-G35.T.G.P.small.5.jpg
98662-G35.T.G.P.small.5.jpg
#29
09-09-2003, 08:56 PM
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Re: Sway Bar decisions. Help?
OUCH!!!! Dude that not a good deal. I won't be buying a Nismo Sway Bar, but for those of you who want a good deal from a greta company try Performance Nissan. As a matter of fact, they have huge discounts on just about all there Nismo part.
http://www.performancenissanparts.co...products_id=38
"Use the Forced Induction Luke!"
-Jedi
2003 G35C, 6MT, Navi, Black Obsidian/Graphite
http://www.performancenissanparts.co...products_id=38
"Use the Forced Induction Luke!"
-Jedi
2003 G35C, 6MT, Navi, Black Obsidian/Graphite
#30
09-09-2003, 09:08 PM
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