...but don't do the real HP gaining mods, i.e. heads and cams?

Me personally, I'm doing the mods I did the enhance the sound and get a little more pep. I do realize that many people don't want to crack open the heads to swap the cams, but it seems that some of you think that intake and exhaust mods are the end-all, be-all to modding your car other than FI.

I was reading a thread on a Nissan forum, and there were more than a couple of people who were SURPRISED that a cam swap netted as much actual dyno HP as it did - about 20+ hp and 10-15 lb/ft, if I remember correctly. I recall one guy saying he thought there would only be a 5 HP gain!!! Madness!!!

For the same price as a nice catback system, which may or may not net you any gain in power, you can get a NISMO cam set and get real power, without having to do a thing to the rest of your car. Put some ported and polished heads on that sucker, and you're really going to be able to justify the need for a high flow intake and exhaust setup.

What do you all think? If I was really interested in making power, I'd do a head/cam swap in a second. I'm surprised I don't see more of these on this car as I do. Most of us can afford that kind of work, but a lot of people seem to lack the education or have grown up in the "fast & furious" culture of shiny intakes & fart pipes and don't realize the gains to be had by REAL engine mods.



(flame suit on)

I think cams and head polishing is a very costly mod. Cams as much as exhaust? Nah. A nice fuji or greddy evo or hks would run about a 1g and you can install yourself or pay someone a hundred bucks to do. Cam set will run about 1200 to 1500 and the install is probably just as much. So that right there is 3 grand vs 1100. Porting and polishing I still think PnP will net some good hp but there's very few performance shops that know how to properly port vq heads.

Plus you have a enthusiast base that don't really do crazy performance mods here. You'll find more of them on my350z.

Polishing heads, I agree, is usually pretty pricey. Buying aftermarket heads for these engines is, IMO, astronomically ridiculous. Who the hell wants to pay 3-4k just for heads??

But the cam swap should be a good project for somebody experienced with a wrench. I haven't looked into great detail as to everything that a cam swap entails on a VQ, but just the fact that the cams can be accessed by removing the heads is a huge advantage over removing the engine accessories from the front and fighting to pull the cam out from the front of the engine then reinserting the new cam without gouging it up.

That's what I hypothesized about the G crowd vs the Z crowd. No offense to Z guys, but I think the owners of an Infiniti (more of a luxury, leave-it-as-it-is mindset) are less likely to want to "tear up" their cars than some Nissan owners. Not that a Z is any less of a car, it just has a different type of market and driver.

Edit: It still baffles me that some people, and not just G owners, don't understand that real NA power comes from heads and cam, not from an intake spacer or a different muffler.

I have cams, headers and plenum, not done the heads yet as I am going to do a fully built motor soon so maybe then I will. Not everyone just does exhaust, y-pipes and intake

Agreed - not everyone....

Doing a cam swap isn't like doing a cam swap on Chevy 350 either. It requires some experience to swap cams on this engine. Z owners do tend to go further into the mod pool. G's are more of a GT car than a track car. Most buy their Z's with the intentions of modding weather it be for show or track use. Most G owners just buy it and drive it. Some of us get the mod bug and there are a few of us who have purchased a G with the intention of doing some serious mods.

As for wondering why G owners don't get the cams or PnP job, I can only presume that those after serious power opt for FI. Cams are expensive, upwards of $3k installed as stated already, and PnP doesn't give nearly as much gain as one might expect, plus most of us don't want to remove the heads while still under factory warranty.

I think most here understand that intake, plenum, and exhaust mods reveal minimum power. It certainly does sound faster. Those after more power and willing to spend the coin just bolt on the FI parts.

WOW!! $3k for a cam install??


So, uh, have you seen that new turbonetics kit?

Seriously though, if it really costs $1500-$2000 just to have somebody install cams, then I can certainly see why most people don't fool with them. That seems a little absurd to me though. How many hours does the book give for a cam replacement?

I do agree that cams is one of the few mods that you would want for power, as it is the next mod that I'm waiting for (can't find any for the revup). But you forgot to add in tuning costs, and maybe an ECU to do the tuning with.

According to the advertising I've seen for the Nismo set, and from a couple of people (not here) who have it set up, a tune or ECU upgrade is not required, though I couldn't imagine, for starters, how lean the AF ratio would be. Apparently not lean enough to cause any harm, but still...

I wouldn't do a cam swap without a retune, but, IMO, if it can be and has been done as a standalone mod, then it should be considered as such for the sake of debate.

Let's compare prices here, and please correct my figures if they seem skewed.

Assuming you pay full retail price and you pay to have the parts installed, let's figure out how much the "average" IHE system costs vs the cam swap. These prices are approximate, and IMO think they reflect what a person with a budget suitable to what we are comparing would spend, i.e. we're assuming that somebody who could afford $3k for cams is not going to buy $150 Megan headers instead. Afterall, if one can't actually spend the money to do a cam swap, then there is no basis for discussion.

Intake: $200 + install $50? = $250
Spacer (Iso thermal) $300 + install $100? = $400
Headers: $800 + install $400 = $1200
HFC: $600 (assume install incl. w/ headers)
Catback: $800 + install $100 = $900

This gives us an estimated total of $3350. I know that so and so sells xxx part for cheaper on a group buy with free shipping, etc. I'm just doing ballpark regular retail. The install prices I just estimated based on time x $50/hr shop rate.

So it will cost roughly $400 more for bolt-ons that probably will not get 20+ rwhp (although your car will sound good ). If you're strictly concerned about HP like a lot of people say they are, where is the logic in the bolt-ons?

i think a lot of ppl just do simple bolt ons because they usually don't mod all at once.... so its usually a bolt on every now and then to keep us satisfied, and in the long run, it adds up to that list you have.. cuz a bolt on every now and then is rather cheap i would say.. so it doesnt take a lot to purchase those parts individually every now and then

also, some ppl claim they will only do an intake and spacer, or what not, but we all know, that usually leads to more

My last two modification on my N/A car made over 20whp for under $2000. Mind you, I'd already spent about $1500 on other mild modifications (filter, z tube, plenum spacer, pulley, y-pipe, coupe mid-pipe), but no bigger ticket items like HFC or cat-back exhaust. The gains I got from the headers and chip are just as good as could be expected for $3000 for cams w/ install. Cams are just not worth it IMO as far as "bang for the buck" value.

Headers $500 + $350 install
Unichip $800 + $300 tuning (I got my Unichip used, so really it was only $400)
Total cost: $1950

04 AT sedan
Before: 220.6 whp/205.8 wtq
After: 241.0 whp/217.4 wtq
Gains: 20.4 whp/11.6 wtq

And, yes, your figures are a bit skewed. Good quality headers should only cost $500. Plenum spacers run about $250. Install on an intake (Stillen?) should only take 30 minutes (Injen will take longer), and plenum spacer only an hour. Your labor rates may be low (most shops in my area are around $70-80/hr), but header install should only be about $350. In ballpark terms, you're about $500 too high. And I think with all the parts you'd listed, you easily exceed 20 whp. Cams and a tune would really wake up those parts though.

The first 5% in torque and 10% in HP [at a higher rpm] is easy and relatively inexpensive $50-$100 per HORSEPOWER because the factory builds in safety reserve for longevity.

Probably not so much a question of understanding there is power to be made from heads and cam as it is a desire to do so. IMHO, the cost, work and likely warranty exclusion are not worth it for the realized gains.

I can't believe you spent $2k for 20HP and 11Tq!

There are cheaper ways to get that power, and better ways as well.

An Apexi AF controller and tune - $500 - no other mods is worth 15HP and 7!

Our Intimidator Catback and resonated testpipes - under $2K, are good fro 20HP and 18TQ.

MD's MREV 2 and ISO Thermal with a 1/2" spacer is worth about 30HP and 20TQ - and that's less than $500.

You guys really need to plan and research better or your wasting money.

Headers are great for sound - but for power??? Unless you heavily mod your engine or go SC - they are a waste power-wise. The UniChip is really not a great option - the TS reflash without a tune yields you 20HP and 10TQ for $650.

I think I'm the only one that preaches that you have to really plan out what your doing as a whole and not just jump into things. Tuning the car is one of the LAST thing you do after you mod and bolt up everything, not he first things...unless all your doing is AF and tuning.

You've got to put the money in wise places....

Rick

A cam install on these cars is not easy to say the least. Here are just a few of the things that have to be removed/replaced for a cam install:

1) Remove intake manifold
2) Remove valve covers
3) Remove belts, maybe some pulleys, and then yank the timing chain cover
4) Remove timing chain
5) Remove cam chains
6) Remove cam pulleys
7) Remove cam bearings

Install is reverse order, but you'll need a whole slew of new gaskets and cam shims. I believe Nissan quotes the work at about 12 hours or roughly $900 with about $200 in shop materials. You may also want to consider valve springs because the OEM ones have been known to cause float above 7K. I believe JWT springs are $200 a set.

My issue with cams is that they shift the powerband higher and they trade low to midrange power for high rpm punch. It's as simple as this, you change the valve geometry, you change the powerband. You can't get low, mid, and high rpm gains with cams. It's either one or the other. In layman's terms, it's like taking your torque rich VQ35 and turning it into a Honda VTEC (no guts down low, all power up top). Most of us seem concerned about strong linear power with a very flat torque curve. Cams take this away and if you do the calculations, it is quite possible to be slower in the 1/4 mile cams even though they do make a legit 15-20whp in the upper reaches of the powerband. Trading 15-20whp/wtq is the 2500-5000rpms range is deterimental to 0-60mph performance unless you add components that allow you to get into the higher powerband quickly. These components would be super deep gears (3.9s), a very high stall TC (if you have a 5AT), a 5000+rpm launch (if you have 6MT, and definitely slicks. The car will feel like a dog around town too. Also, don't forget that since cams improve upper rpm power, you'll need to add some sort of ECU programming to extend the rev limiter to 7,200-7,300rpms. And if you do that, then you'd be wise to invest in some stronger connecting rod bolts because the non-RevUp motors have fairly weak bolts that don't like rpms above 7K.

When it's all said and done, installing cams and the components needs to take advantage of them will end up costing you about $3K.

As for heads, they work mostly the same way as cams. If you port them out and increase flow, you'll shift the powerband upwards (though not as dramatically as cams). There are too many people that think "port & polish" and "internals" is some sort of great power adder. It's not. Porting and polishing is a horrible mod for the money especially considering that the VQ35 heads are already quite decent. Race teams do this to gain every little ounce of power from the motor. You also have to get a shop that knows that the hell they're doing because if they open up the heads too much, it will actually kill power. BIGGER is not better!!!!!!!!!! It's velocity. Same goes for exhausts. Yanking heads isn't easy either, but if you're doing cams at the same time, then it's much easier. I'd figure $1,200 for the heads and removal/install plus new gaskets ($200) assuming you're doing the cams at the same time.

IMO, cams and heads are a waste when you could just as easily to some sort of forced induction which will net far more power and is far easier to install.