Good lord man....after all that why aren't you going TT w. better engine management?

Most would give their left ******** for that kind of build

 

Oh, I forgot, the SS uses crank angle signal spoofing to control timing, the V-Pro has fully programmable 32x32 timing map. This is about 10% of the total advantage that fcon has over SS (which is a pre-ecu piggyback device).

 

WHY - because I don't need to spend that kind of money for nothing...

You can spend as you like - my car runs perfectly, and I spent less. Your not going to sell me the way you were sold..sorry man - I know better and wont let it happen to me...

Rick

 

After your posts I've been researching the Fcon and it looks damn good I gotta say from the few details that are actually available on the net. I really like the resolution and the tuning features. The thing you gotta understand is that it is very possible to get a "perfect" tune with any of the other ECU boxes out today. It all depends on your car and the effort you or your tuner goes to to get that perfect tune. It looks like the Fcon can get a tuner to the safest, optimal map in a short amount of time even under adverse conditions (environmental, build issues, fuel issues, etc), which is great (except they still charge an arm or a leg for it to cover their licensing costs with HKS).

The only other units I have read up on are the EU and UTEC. Both have advantages and disadvantages. Both can be used to create a perfect tune for most cars (NA or FI). Might be a lot harder to get there, but for many the lower cost (for parts and tuning) and end-user tuning ability offset the extra effort.

If you read Sharif's note carefully in the link you posted earlier, he commends the FCon but doesn't knock the UTEC either (no pun intended!). Even with the fewer load points, he implies an experienced tuner can still get results.

That's my take anyway. I'm sure anyone who gets the FCON will be happy with the unit. I personally would not be happy paying $1k for tuning, twice (NA + FI) or even more than that for multiple FI maps.

Good luck with your build - I'm sure it'll turn out to be an awesome car...

 

Jitsu -
Did your tuner adjust the cam phasing at all? Intake and/or exhaust? Or were your gains strictly from fuel and timing?

 

I Totally agree with the whole poor "sales tactics" you guys are talking about, ... that's why I've suggested going elsewhere besides SGP. I Hate it when a company gets new customers, that are fairly new to the modding scene with their new car, ... and take advantage of them by forcing "thier" way down the customers throat. I think that's exactly what SGP, AND some "other" shops are doing right now in this Z/G community. It happens EVERY time a new car comes out and sucks the owner into the aftermarket community, shops take advantage Instead of sharing information and educating. It happened with hondas back in the early 90's, then mitsu's, subies, etc, etc, etc.....

Dr_jitsu, ... when you posted about paying 4k for the V Pro setup, ... how much of that was the V Pro itself?? Not including the exhaust (which is like 1k, right?), tune, etc.

I paid 1850 for the whole V Pro setup, ... and that's about what I would expect to pay for a good EM. I'd be willing to pay ~2 - 2.5K depending upon abilities. I wanted a MoTec, but I just couldn't bring myself to pay that much for EM. And for my S14, ... I am using the SS FTC1 ... different goals, different EM.

While I like the SS box, ... it is not close to being as capable as the V Pro, ... that's not saying it can't do what "it's" job is in a good manner. 'Personally', if I were to go with a 'lesser' EM than the V Pro, .. it would be the Split Second, ... I like the software, it does a good job, as well as the UTEC or EU, etc. (and like i said, i'm using it on my S14)

BUT, ... all that being said, ... and as Dr_jitsu cut and paste from one of my posts The V Pro is a MUCH more capable unit than most PnP EM out there for the same cost. With the HKS Navigator, you will have some adjustability and monitoring capability, ... and the sky becomes the limit for future tunability and reliability.

Do you guys think the the AEM is a waste of money too?? just curious.

 

I think there is a point that a lot of people are missing. There are capable EM options out there now that will suffice up to 500-600hp, street driven, etc, .... after that, their capabilities become more 'gray'.....
The UTEC, for example, and as pointed out already, ... does Not control your maps unless under boost/load.... there are many disadvantages to that. At this point, with THIS many threads going on about EM, everything is being repeated.....
SO, just to make one point, almost ANY Fully Stand Alone Engine Management system will have Superior advantages over a Piggy Back computer (EU, UTEC, SS, etc).
PERIOD.

*edit: when i get back from iraq, ... and if i have time/my 'career' allows for it, ... I will write up as much detailed info on EM that i can, explaining differences, when you'd want to use one more than the other, etc, etc, etc. and post it on the web (a new site some of my friends are working on).

 

I paid 500 for the tune...SGP originally wanted to charge me 700...Jotech charges 650, I heard Shariff charges 1K.

I agree that the V-Pro is expensive...A SHOP HAS TO GIVE HKS 100k JUST TO BUY IN, and then do at least 200K in bussiness.

You are right that a UTEC is fine for NA. The biggest diff is that the UTEC, as I understand it, gives u 10 set points for A/F ratio adjustmenst, and 10 for timing. So, every 600 RPM's or so you get a new program. The V-Pro gives u 32. Shariff and the others admited that a good tuner could make due w/ 10 in the case of NA, but that was not nearly enough for FI applications. Also, the UTEC, and piggybacks in general, struggle w/ the transition from NA to boost.

I too don't like to way SGP does sales...they need to explain thing a lot more instead of issueing Fait Accompli's. However, I am finding out after doing my own research that nearly everything that they recommend is in fact what is the best for my goals in terms of power and safety.

 

Not disagreeing with anything you said (now or before) - except for the part about "missing the point". Each unit has advantages and disadvantages but are all still capable of providing a solid tune - that was *my point* (not that one is better or worse - clearly the Fcon is technically superior).

To put it another way, someone like Sharif could probably get a UTEC to provide a perfect tune at 20+ psi if that's what was called for. Heck VRT provided one heck of a tune with the SS box at 24+ psi on their 760 whp monster, did they not? (don't really remember if they mentioned swapping out the std JWT TT kit SS unit)

 

Here's one for you all - a real bottom line:

Every EM solution fits particular needs. Every solution takes over or augments certain settings that either are or are not needed, depending on how detailed a tune you want or even need.

Looking at all the lists of options available - I can trim the HKS, UTEC and EManage units all down my specific needs of Timing and A/F ONLY. I am perfectly happy with what the other inboard and piggy backs do for me at these levels - AND STILL ALLOW ME TO TUNE THE CAR for the areas that need my attention most for fine tuning.

I don't need an ECU replacement - I'm not going for 550+ HP - and if I was I wouldn't be going HKS anyways...I would go custom built Motec for my needs hands down - if I was going that route.

Again - every need does have a solution out there. Under 550HP has many options - and over that has very few.

Rick

 

Of course any of the piggysbacks will work. They all adjust timing and A/F ratios. However, they are not as precise. For example, the UTEC will allow for a setting at 4400 RPM and another at say 5100. The problem is what happens between those two RPM's and the V-Pro or Motec allow much more sophisticated adaptations.

At high hp levels (and I consider anything above 400 whp high) you run the risk of detonation. Therefore I want maximum precision.

Now Rick....you have a fully built motor. Awesome....but that is very expensive...even if you have connections. A wild-built motor is going to run at least 7-10 plus K just for the parts...never mind R&R and labor. Then add 5 plus K for TT, 2K for fuel return, 1.5 K for clutch upgrade, 1.5K for wheels and tires etc.

What is an extra 2K for engine management in the larger scheme of things. I want the piece of mind that comes w/ the best.

And why a Vortech? The Vortech is a good SC....probably the best. But the logical purpose of a SC is to try and safely run FI and maybe 350 whp (not bad...a very fun car) on a stock block. A SC allows entry level FI w/ out the major finacial committments mentioned above.

However, you have a big dog motor. Why not go all out (500 pluswhp) and run TT and better management?

 

I can't stop laughing at how much you absolutely assume your way through a post...it just cracks me up man!

350WHP - HAHAHAHAHAHAHA - yea like I'd only look for that!!!!

Some do...not me...and that's not what I'm getting...you should stop barkin up my tree...really, your making me and others angry already.

It's really a shame that this thread is turning into a Dr. Jitsu defends his decision to spend $4k on engine management thread...really man. Are you that unsatisfied with your decision and how it happened, that you have to rag on others? Do you now wish it went another way as your learning too? Did you not take other peoples advice in the beginning and now your paying the price, so if you can get others aboard with doing so, it'll make you feel better?

Honestly - I'm tired of being part of this thread. I'm loosing the energy.

Sorry man...I getting worn out...it's almost like you will not end this until you can justify your decision to yourself.

I could care less about $2K...but I do care about forcing myself into a corner I can't get out of...hmmm, maybe that's what this is all about!!!!

Rick

 

Bump for a question actually pertaining to the vcon.

 

Bump for TH's question.....


But ISM, I'm afraid that the Dr thumbs his nose at our lowly Vortech SC's.

Cause as he told me in another thread.... "Just ask the top tuners around the country (For. Int., SGP, Jotech, VRT, MRC etc.) None of them like SC."

 

Hey is your 5th gear grinding again yet? Must be the vortech's fault...